I am trying to nail down the behavior of Tiny creatures and combat.
The relevant rules leading to my question below...
Big and little creatures in combat
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. … Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.
Moving through a square
You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless.
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller
Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
My question: How do these rules work with each other? Specifically, is a Tiny creature allowed to end its turn in the same space as a Medium creature?
It's ambiguous, but I think I know the answer, and I'm asking here to make sure I have the same answer others have come to.
"You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent" is the general rule, except "A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square." That word "into" does a lot of work, because it contrasts with "through", which would mean "entering and exiting." So to contrast, "into" has to mean "entering but not exiting." So does that mean a Tiny creature can end its movement in the same square as a Medium creature?
The answer has to be yes. Because if it can't...
"Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied."
Note "when that happens". "That" refers to "ends its movement" (not "ends its turn"). So going back to a legal position would be done after moving but before attacking. That is clearly nonsense, because then tiny creatures could never attack anyone larger than themselves!
So if a Tiny creature can end its movement in the same square, and then attack from there, it clearly remains there to the end of its turn because there is nothing saying it needs to be moved after it performs an attack. Is that correct?
But if I'm right, then as near as I can tell, a stirge can move into a human's space (and take an attack of opportunity) and stop there, but a human cannot move into a stirge's space unless they either make an Acrobatics check (in which case they have to keep moving past, and cannot stop) or perform a bull rush, which pushes the stirge back.
This seems wrong but I also can't find anything in the rules to say otherwise.
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eyelessgame wrote: I am trying to nail down the behavior of Tiny creatures and combat. The order you look at this matters. In Pathfinder, the specific overrides the general. I'm going to repost your summary without the general parts that are overridden.
Big and little creatures in combat
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. … Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.
Moving through a square
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Quote: My question: How do these rules work with each other? Specifically, is a Tiny creature allowed to end its turn in the same space as a Medium creature? Absolutely. Because the rule in "Moving through a square" applicable to Tiny creatures says so. They can move into an occupied square. That's something that typically isn't allowed, but is explicitly for Tiny creatures. The "Big and little creatures in combat" section explicitly indicates that multiple Tiny creatures can share a square, setting the precedent for co-occupation of a square, and the "Moving through a square" indicates the price; an attack of opportunity upon entry.
Quote: But if I'm right, then as near as I can tell, a stirge can move into a human's space (and take an attack of opportunity) and stop there, but a human cannot move into a stirge's space unless they either make an Acrobatics check (in which case they have to keep moving past, and cannot stop) or perform a bull rush, which pushes the stirge back.
This seems wrong but I also can't find anything in the rules to say otherwise.
You've got it right. The rules - as written - don't provide for a non-Tiny creature entering the square of a Tiny creature. When the 3.x ruleset was written, it was already a wall of text with a lot of edge conditions. Documenting every possible interaction wasn't really possible. In this case, it's time for DM adjudication. What I'd do (probably) is simply use the same rules backwards, for purposes of consistency; a Medium creature can enter the square of a Tiny creature but provokes an AoO for doing so. Said AoO is slightly unusual because an AoO takes place before the action triggering it, meaning while the Medium creature is outside of the Tiny creature's square, meaning outside of its reach. I'd simply address that by describing that it's happening while some body parts enter the square, allowing them to be attacked, but if the Tiny creature were to kill/knock-out/incapacitate/stun/paralyze the Medium creature, its body would remain outside the Tiny creature's square, preserving the "AoO before action" rule in the only way that matters.
That seems like the right ruling to me too. Thanks!
There's other edge cases here that I'm still deciding how I will rule now that - ten years down the line - I actually feel like I understand the rule specifics. (The change to grappling - that two medium-sized creatures who are grappling are in *adjacent* squares and not the *same* square - is one I missed for a decade...)
- "You can attack into your own square if you need to" is a perfectly sensible rule - but is it then the case even for a Reach weapon?
- The adjudication would seem to be that a tiny creature threatens its own space - thus it can perform AoOs against actions that are taken in its own space. As you say, the subtlety of ordering the "entering its space" move requires some squinting.
- It bugs me a lot that tiny creatures cannot flank at all - it means that Reduce Person is a significant buffing spell when cast on a human rogue (net +2 to AC - one for size and one for dex - and halfling-sized but still move 30' per round!) but a severe debuff to a halfling rogue (still +2 AC, but unable to flank, meaning virtually no sneak attacks!) It also means there is very little point to any tiny-sized race taking levels in rogue, which seems counterintuitive at the least.
Which all might mean I need to adjudicate some ability for a tiny creature to flank.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
eyelessgame wrote: Which all might mean I need to adjudicate some ability for a tiny creature to flank. I suggest taking a look at the Mouser archetype for swashbuckler which does allow flanking while occupying the square of a foe.
Anguish wrote: eyelessgame wrote: But if I'm right, then as near as I can tell, a stirge can move into a human's space (and take an attack of opportunity) and stop there, but a human cannot move into a stirge's space unless they either make an Acrobatics check (in which case they have to keep moving past, and cannot stop) or perform a bull rush, which pushes the stirge back.
This seems wrong but I also can't find anything in the rules to say otherwise.
You've got it right. The rules - as written - don't provide for a non-Tiny creature entering the square of a Tiny creature. When the 3.x ruleset was written, it was already a wall of text with a lot of edge conditions. Documenting every possible interaction wasn't really possible. In this case, it's time for DM adjudication. What I'd do (probably) is simply use the same rules backwards, for purposes of consistency; a Medium creature can enter the square of a Tiny creature but provokes an AoO for doing so. Said AoO is slightly unusual because an AoO takes place before the action triggering it, meaning while the Medium creature is outside of the Tiny creature's square, meaning outside of its reach. I'd simply address that by describing that it's happening while some body parts enter the square, allowing them to be attacked, but if the Tiny creature were to kill/knock-out/incapacitate/stun/paralyze the Medium creature, its body would remain outside the Tiny creature's square, preserving the "AoO before action" rule in the only way that matters. from the combat section
"A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures."
they can move through but not stop. presumably to stop gm from pancaking the characters...
eyelessgame wrote: - "You can attack into your own square if you need to" is a perfectly sensible rule - but is it then the case even for a Reach weapon? No. The general rule is that you can attack into your own square if needed, but using a reach weapon is a more specific situation adjudicated by it's own more specific rule which alters the squares you threaten/can attack when using that weapon. :)
That make sense - but there is no mention of attacking into your own square in any discussion of reach weapons, only that you cannot attack "adjacent" foes.
"Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square." (Equipment chapter - talks only about adjacent squares, not your own square) And again, "You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe." Adjacent; no mention of the same square.
I do see "Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike
up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their
natural reach or less" in the Combat chapter. But that only applies to large+ creatures.
But this is splitting hairs and I'm not disagreeing with you, just wanting ammunition to forestall dissatisfaction with the adjudication. :)
zza ni wrote: from the combat section
"A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures."
they can move through but not stop. presumably to stop gm from pancaking the characters...
And that's really the problem. This is explicit and seems to forestall any claim that a Medium-sized creature could move into, and stop in, the square of a Tiny creature.
"Big" isn't a term-of-art. It's just an ordinary word used for comparison. This rule is pretty clear that in order to move into the square occupied by a Tiny creature you have to be at least Large, and even then you can't stop. Nothing seems to justify the sensible ruling.
Not that I won't make the ruling anyway. I will just need to write it down and make sure my players know ahead of time. :)
So I'm guessing there just wasn't anything else here to say.
The two edge cases I'm still trying to decide how to rule:
- reduce person is a buff for an elf rogue (+1 AC, +1 to hit, at a cost of an effective -1 to damage) but a massive debuff for a halfling rogue, because a Tiny creature cannot flank. I'm not happy with that.
- There's still no satisfactory clarity on whether a Medium character can move down a 5' wide hallway occupied by Tiny creatures.
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I think, based in part on this discussion and then taking it further, I can bend the meaning of one of the quotes already given to solve the medium-versus-tiny problem...
Here are the relevant quotes.
Quote: "Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space."
"You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. "
"A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so."
I highlight with italics because I will rely on those words in an admittedly less-than-completely-kosher way.
I'm going to bend things this way...
- You can enter a space of a creature that is Tiny or smaller, regardless of your size, and stop there if you want. (Justification: you can't generally enter another creature's space because that creature takes up its space, which tiny/smaller creatures do not. Also, a condition (like a tiny and a larger creature sharing a space) ought to be legal regardless of who causes it to happen. If a tiny creature can move into your square and stop, it follows that you can move into theirs and stop.)
- Exception to the above: four Tiny creatures in the same space count as a Small creature, and small-or-larger rules apply for entering that space (e.g. acrobatics or overrun to move through, cannot stop) (Justification is clear: "four tiny creatures fit in a space". Once another Tiny creature can't enter, neither can larger creatures.)
- If you enter the space of a Tiny or smaller creature, they get an attack of opportunity on you. They do not get an attack of opportunity when you leave their space. (Justification: your distance to them counts as 0', which places you within their 0' threat range.)
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I'm thinking about ruling this, to deal with my own tiny-flank frustration (I did read the Mouser, but it's a special class feature and it expends panache points and is thus overpowered for what I want)
A Tiny or smaller creature that is sharing the space of another creature may "move within the space" to flank that creature, if the creature has another enemy in the same space (thus also tiny) or adjacent.
Moving within the space can be done instead of a 5' move, or can be done as part of a move action. Either way, it incurs an attack of opportunity from the target being flanked (but not other creatures in the space). This counts as an "attack of opportunity for moving" (which can be avoided with e.g. Acrobatics) - that is, if the target already took an AoO for its move, they do not get another AoO.
This maneuver to flank does not grant a flanking bonus to any other creature, only to the creature doing the flanking (thus a tiny creature cannot provide a flanking bonus to a small-or-larger creature).
I realize that unlike the above, it's in direct contraction to RAW, so I'll think more about it and if I decide to do it for real I'll keep it to myself. :)
About Reduce person: not all spells are meant to be useful to all characters.
Four tiny creatures don't necessarily fill a square and block it. Look to swarms:
Quote:
A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so.
...
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures.
300 tiny creatures in a 10'x10' square don't block a character's movement.
Sure, swarm creatures crawl over each other, but we still have an average of 75 creatures in a single 5'x5', and that "vice versa" allows a creature to move through them without problems.
A tiny creature is something like 1-1 1/2 feet high. Most medium and larger creatures can step above them, so it shouldn't be a big problem entering the square.
Naturally, the rules are generalizations. If we want more precision, a slithering creature (like a snake or a jelly) would have more problems than quadruped.
But that is the domain of houserules and GMs decisions.
Keep in mind the "three size categories larger" really only refers to medium/small creatures moving into Gargantuan+/Huge+ (respectively) creature's space. If you wanted, you could model the game with 2 foot squares where a tiny creature takes up the whole square, a small creature takes up 2 (as a large creature on normal 5ft square scale), and a medium creature takes 3 of your 2ft squares (as a huge creature), but this is tedious and unfun to do and therefore the quick abstraction was made. Keep in mind, without over crowding like you might have in a swarm, you can fit 27 creatures in the same space as you can fit one creature 2 size categories larger.
There is also a rule in stealth for using a creature only two size categories larger than you for cover from themself on your stealth check.
So yes, you can move into a square of creature only 2 size categories larger than you (and to a tiny creature, a small creature doesn't take up the full medium square anyway). I'm fairly sure the rule for "moving through the square of a creature 3 sizes larger than you" is that you actually don't get an AoO for doing so because of the cover they provide against themselves (you try reaching between your legs to swat a bug without dropping your guard). Note that you would still get an AoO for leaving a square that was outside of their space when you first enter their space, but moving around within or leaving their space wouldn't provoke. (Assuming I am even correct that about the intent with that original quote, that's just how I have always interpreted it.)
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