I saw an old thread about this, but it didn't really conclude on one side or the other... Most of it talked about impact-triggered grenades.
Here's my thought. A harness with standard pin-pull/throw grenades on it, each pin is tied to the harness with high-tensile thread/string. Telekinetic Projectile (TKP) is the used to "throw" the grenade. String pulls the pin. Grenade sails to target, hits dealing B damage per spell, then explosive shenanigans ensue. A relatively simple low-level grenade launcher. Slightly cost prohibitive, but gives a caster some flexibility and a few high damage rounds of combat if needed.
Thoughts?
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I can't see how this works.
If the grenade is attached to something, everything becomes the target of the spell.
Nothing in the spell implies you can disassemble an item and throw its components separately.
If you could, it would quickly become the disarming tactic of choice.
So, assuming the vest and grenade were still a valid weight, they would both be hurled at your target.
I can't see how this works.
If the grenade is attached to something, everything becomes the target of the spell.
Nothing in the spell implies you can disassemble an item and throw its components separately.
If you could, it would quickly become the disarming tactic of choice.
So, assuming the vest and grenade were still a valid weight, they would both be hurled at your target.
I kind of see your point... Here's two counters.
Why couldn't it target a held weapon? I don't have the book with me as I write this, but I don't believe it states an unattended item requirement. I supposed if you targeted a held item, it would cause a Reflex save like similar spells. One the caster could choose to fail when they launch the grenade, but that an enemy would roll.
Second, even as one item grenade/string/harness the reaction would still be a throw grenade... Spell pulls grenade, grenade pulls string, string pulls harness. Spell isn't strong enough to break harness or string, pin pulls (being the weakest link in the chain), grenade throws.
With hardness and HP, I would doubt a d6 would break a grenade. Grenades are pretty unique, being fairly strongly built but also built to take itself apart.
As for where the grenade lands, scatter chart for intersections around the target. Maybe some question about how much it bounces?
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You're making all of this up, though. No two GMs would handle it the same way. It's solidly in houserule territory, and I don't see why anything needs to be houseruled anyways. Just throw the grenade the way it was designed.
Some points of contention:
• You say the weakest link is the "high-tensile" string. I say the 0-level spell is the weakest link.
• What's the save DC of the grenade, since it wasn't thrown?
• Telekinetic Projectile has a greater range than most grenades; does the DC still suffer range penalties?
• What intersection does it land in? What if one intersection has cover, and another doesn't?
Any of those questions can be answered different ways. That's fine for the Homebrew Forum to discuss, but not really something for here in the Rules Forum.
Thoughts?
Bad idea. If you fail your attack roll, your grenade will explode far behind your target, so you lose the grenade. Even if you hit the target, there would be a random dispersion, as you can't decide where the grenade will land. So, roughly, it's far too random to be used. At low level, it could be okish. But at high level, the grenade is what you want to throw, the 1d6 damage are pretty useless, especially if they reduce the efficiency of the grenade.
So, you could house rule it, but it's not very useful.
You're making all of this up, though. No two GMs would handle it the same way. It's solidly in houserule territory, and I don't see why anything needs to be houseruled anyways. Just throw the grenade the way it was designed.
Some points of contention:
• You say the weakest link is the "high-tensile" string. I say the 0-level spell is the weakest link.
actually I think they said the pin was the path of least resistance, since the force to pull a pin is far less than the force needed to lob a 3-5lb object that far.
• What's the save DC of the grenade, since it wasn't thrown?
use the spellcaster's controlling stat in place of dexterity
• Telekinetic Projectile has a greater range than most grenades; does the DC still suffer range penalties?
why would it? The penalty isn't because of the distance the grenade has to fly, but because of the difficulty of landing a grenade at a given distance. The fact that the rule makes no logical sense is besides the point...for some reason.
• What intersection does it land in? What if one intersection has cover, and another doesn't?
make a logical ruling as a gm or roll a d4?
Don't grenades go out of their way to NOT be impact triggered? You know, since they're carried by soldiers that are going to get dropped out of a plane, bounced around in a space jeep, thrown through the air by explosions, shot, stabbed, hit the deck and THEN want to throw the grenade?
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I saw an old thread about this, but it didn't really conclude on one side or the other... Most of it talked about impact-triggered grenades.
Here's my thought. A harness with standard pin-pull/throw grenades on it, each pin is tied to the harness with high-tensile thread/string. Telekinetic Projectile (TKP) is the used to "throw" the grenade. String pulls the pin. Grenade sails to target, hits dealing B damage per spell, then explosive shenanigans ensue. A relatively simple low-level grenade launcher. Slightly cost prohibitive, but gives a caster some flexibility and a few high damage rounds of combat if needed.
Thoughts?
Love it. It would absolutely work. None of the counterpoints I have read would prevent this from working, and the grenade is not intended to be triggered by the damage, obviously, why would anyone think that?
The only problem is that it's a clear attempt to circumvent the RAW and especially the balance of grenades in game, making them more powerful than they are supposed to, so I would certainly not allow it for anything that isn't your home brew game.
But in your home game? Go ahead!
Grenades have the explode special quality. This means they need to be aimed at a grid intersection.
Telekinetic Projectile targets a creature, which is not a grid intersection.
Grenades cannot be used in the way you want, unless your GM houserules it okay.
Actually this is correct, Telekinetic Proj. only targets creatures. But you could use Psychokinetic hand instead to separate the grenade from the harness (which activates it) then drop it wherever you want, or use the spell action to propel it up to 15 ft.
If I was the GM I would make you pay or use engineering with UPBs to adapt each grenade to the harness though.It's still obviously not ok for anything outside your home game, but pretty cool xD
Since there isn't a specific hardness or HP for grenades, wouldn't you just use the generic item rules which (I think) is 5 + item level for both, though "sturdy" items would be higher and weapons are identified in the sturdy example. So a level 1 grenade would be 6 and 6, so the spell couldn't break the grenade (unless you hit something that ignored hardness).
I wouldn't say it makes grenades more powerful... An extra d6 to one creature only has an impact for a few levels. At those levels, rampant use would be cost prohibitive. It does make a caster more accurate with a moderately expensive 1-use weapon though.
Telekinetic Project targets one object and one creature. So the caster can pick what they lob and who it gets lobbed at... Targeting an intersection is valid rule issue, I can see the spell (and other telekinetic-style spells) easily launching a number items that would have similar issues. I admit, targeting intersections is rule foible I don't care for.
Someone a few posts back mentioned looking at requiring the grenade prof. I'm curious about that line of thought?
Speaking of weapon feats, Pull the Pin let's you activate a grenade without targeting an intersection. This would be similar (though without the save penalty).
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Pull the Pin requires 2 feats, and a succesful disarm combat maneuver (which is a melee maneuver last time I checked).
It also reduces the blast radius by half (and yes, the person who was carrying the grenade gets a penalty to his save).
And you want to emulate it with a cantrip.
This pretty much says houserules.
how does launching your own grenade telekinetically emulate a cantrip? It's giving it a different form of projection, that's it.
As for the extra damage from the grenade striking someone, a thought; if the grenade detonates on impact, at what point does it transfer it's kinetic energy to the target before it goes kablooey? Explosive arrows don't deal arrow damage and then grenade damage on top, so I see no reason these would be special, plus with grenade arrows, we already have a case of an explosive not targeting an intersection, unless no one here is a fan of Rambo II. So just pick a intersecting point at detonation to determine AOE.
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how does launching your own grenade telekinetically emulate a cantrip? It's giving it a different form of projection, that's it.
As for the extra damage from the grenade striking someone, a thought; if the grenade detonates on impact, at what point does it transfer it's kinetic energy to the target before it goes kablooey? Explosive arrows don't deal arrow damage and then grenade damage on top, so I see no reason these would be special, plus with grenade arrows, we already have a case of an explosive not targeting an intersection, unless no one here is a fan of Rambo II. So just pick a intersecting point at detonation to determine AOE.
Telekinetic Projectile is a cantrip, that he wants to use the emulate a 2 feat + succesful combat maneuver check with: namely the activation and detonation of a grenade on someone's body. Granted, the end results he wants are different, but the action is the same: activate grenade on (another) person, then have it explode.
That said it's also trying to combine 2 standard actions:
- Attacking with an explode weapon (throwing a grenade)
- Casting a spell
Edit: nothing in the grenade arrow entry suggest you do not target an intersection. They have the same properties as a grenade except they are launched from a bow, but are still explosive ammo and thus need to be targeted at an intersection.
Pull the Pin requires 2 feats... And you want to emulate it with a cantrip.
No, not emulate. I don't see this using this on an opponent's grenade to the same effect... Though the thought of pummeling an enemy with their own miscellaneous equipment is amusing. I agree, it wouldn't cause the grenade to explode and that feat chain is established.
I'm saying the rules support grenades being used without targeting an intersection. The primary object to the TKP grenade launcher.
I will say, this spell is ripe for funky uses (or abuses depending on perspective).
1. That you can launch ANYTHING "weighting up to 5 pounds (less than 1 bulk) or less and do 1d6B... How many pea-sized spheres do you think you can make with L bulk (0.1 lbs) out of adamantine? Silver? Any material to negate DR or gain an effect?
2. Why can't you disarm an opponent with it, "fling an object"? The object doesn't have to be unattended, and there's no minimum distance to travel. Throughout a fight thwack an enemy with the pistol or rifle they carry mere inches away, if you win initiative before they might even be able to draw it. Keep going until they or it breaks. Maybe even target the pin in their grenade if you can argue clear LoS/LoE. (Agreeable this would likely invoke the generic save rules for attend objects, but still...)
From the Core book (mostly so I can stop flipping through):
TELEKINETIC PROJECTILE 0
School evocation
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one object and one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You fling an object weighing up to 5 pounds (less than 1 bulk)
at the target, making a ranged attack against its KAC. If you hit, you deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage to both the target and
the object. The type of object thrown doesn’t change the
damage type or any other properties of the attack.
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The NIL grenade launchers target an intersection. They use grenades as ammo, and due to grenades having the explode quality makes them have to target an intersection.
That's why your attempt at using Telekinetic Projectile for throwing a grenade and making it explode doesn't work.
I agree with you that the spell offers the ability to rip opponents weapons out of their hands as the object doesn't have to be unattended.
Flinging admantine or cold iron or silver things doesn't allow you to bypass damage reduction: "the type of object thrown doesn't change the damage type or any other properties of the attack."
Edit: you could make a case for not being able to do anything to attended/held objects because of the rule that effects that deal damage to objects generally don't affect those: "Effects that deal damage generally affect unattended objects normally but don’t damage held or attended objects unless the effect specifies that they do." (page 242)
Telekinetic Projectile doesn't specify that it can affect held/attended items and it deals damage.
Telekinetic Projectile is a cantrip, that he wants to use the emulate a 2 feat + succesful combat maneuver check with: namely the activation and detonation of a grenade on someone's body. Granted, the end results he wants are different, but the action is the same: activate grenade on (another) person, then have it explode.
unless I've missed a post, they just want to be able to hurl their OWN grenades with TK projectile and have them explode, or essentially just throwing the grenade with ones mind.
That said it's also trying to combine 2 standard actions:
- Attacking with an explode weapon (throwing a grenade)
- Casting a spell
this is a more reasonable argument, but only if you allow them to do damage with the grenade hitting someone then again when it explodes.
Edit: nothing in the grenade arrow entry suggest you do not target an intersection. They have the same properties as a grenade except they are launched from a bow, but are still explosive ammo and thus need to be targeted at an intersection.
so what do you do when someone shoots someone else with an explosive arrow? Not at them, not in their area, them personally ala Rambo. I want to shoot the badguy in the face with my explody arrow. What do you do?
The NIL grenade launchers target an intersection. They use grenades as ammo, and due to grenades having the explode quality makes them have to target an intersection.
That's why your attempt at using Telekinetic Projectile for throwing a grenade and making it explode doesn't work.
This is the part I think we'll get stuck on. A "live" grenade would explode, regardless of where it is. Targeting an intersection is a rule to make AoE easier to map for who is hit/who isn't. I don't believe that rule would negate the explosive quality rule. Out of curiosity, how would you rule the explosion if someone used Pull the Pin? Or if a character tried to hide an explosive on an enemy for later booming (timer/detonator)? Neither of these would target an intersection, but would be attacks with the explode quality.
Flinging admantine or cold iron or silver things doesn't allow you to bypass damage reduction: "the type of object thrown doesn't change the damage type or any other properties of the attack."
I see your point. I read that differently, and waffle on which I'd go with now. With the "or any other properties of the attack", I read this as if you were standing in rubble and flopped an [insert material] the attack would be "1d6 B [material type]" not changing any of the properties used in the attack, you're reading it as just "1d6 B" no modification of the spell damage line. I don't like stripping a material of qualities with a 0-level spell but for RAW purposes the spell line reads better. I suppose a pocket full of copper BB's is cheaper in the long run too.
Edit: you could make a case for not being able to do anything to attended/held objects because of the rule that effects that deal damage to objects generally don't affect those: "Effects that deal damage generally affect unattended objects normally but don’t damage held or attended objects unless the effect specifies that they do." (page 242)
I read the "but don't damage attended objects..." as I can still remove the weapon from my opponents hand and it is now an immortal object since it is attend AND it cannot be damaged. (Joking, if the disarm was allowed the object would be unattended. Just a funny rules thought.) I don't read that as other effects don't happen (like being disarmed), just that you can't break it.
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so what do you do when someone shoots someone else with an explosive arrow? Not at them, not in their area, them personally ala Rambo. I want to shoot the badguy in the face with my explody arrow. What do you do?
I tell them that they need to target an intersection because the ammo is explosive.
This is the part I think we'll get stuck on. A "live" grenade would explode, regardless of where it is. Targeting an intersection is a rule to make AoE easier to map for who is hit/who isn't. I don't believe that rule would negate the explosive quality rule. Out of curiosity, how would you rule the explosion if someone used Pull the Pin? Or if a character tried to hide an explosive on an enemy for later booming (timer/detonator)? Neither of these would target an intersection, but would be attacks with the explode quality.
I'd pick the intersection nearest to path the person took to either get to or away from the person whom he just performed the feat on. Generally you have 1 to pick from, sometimes 2 and then you decide based on if your npc is left or righthanded or something other. (if there's 3 you pick the one that's in between the other 2). Point is that this feat combination is pretty much an exception (it's also not attacking with an explosive weapon or ammo, the attack is the disarm maneuver).
With the preparation I'd ask the player which intersection he wants to have the explosion originate from if it was set on the map instead of hidden on a person, or make a logical decision based on what the person who got exploded was doing and where the explosive device got hidden, but picking one of the 4 corners of his square (or the center intersection of a large being).
However this use to me is pretty much outside the scope of attacking with an explosive weapon or ammo, as it's not something you generally do during combat (and if you did, it would be at least 2 standard actions: 1 sleight of hand to place, 1 standard to activate the detonator).
I read the "but don't damage attended objects..." as I can still remove the weapon from my opponents hand and it is now an immortal object since it is attend AND it cannot be damaged. (Joking, if the disarm was allowed the object would be unattended. Just a funny rules thought.) I don't read that as other effects don't happen (like being disarmed), just that you can't break it.
I had pretty much the exact same reasoning, which is why I said that a case could be made :)
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You fling an object
I'm not native english speaker, so this may be some language edge case, but doesn't fling means that you throw something coming from you?
I always considered Telekinetic Projectile was throwing something from me, otherwise, there would be cover questions, and things like disarming would be potentially allowed.For a level 0 spell, being able to disarm someone would be a bit too much, in my opinion.
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Fling is to throw forcefully. Typically a person can only throw with their arms, so from their space/reach. A telekinetic person should be able to throw an object from anywhere in their range.
I agree it should probably be 'object on your person, or an unattended object in range of the spell' Not 'any object whatsoever, including enemy guns, grenades, random gear, etc.'
A 0 level spell being able disarm at range with no save and no attack roll is obvious oversight.
so what do you do when someone shoots someone else with an explosive arrow? Not at them, not in their area, them personally ala Rambo. I want to shoot the badguy in the face with my explody arrow. What do you do?I tell them that they need to target an intersection because the ammo is explosive.
so what? The arrow just veers off course? The explosive strapped to a wall slides off to one corner? The RPG can only hit tank treads? Way to strip control away from your players! You must be a blast to play with...as long as its in an intersection of course!
You must be a blast to play with...as long as its in an intersection of course!
Ok, I'm going to acknowledge a clever dig but since I started this thread I'm going to back Damanta before we drift into anything even vaguely ouch-ish. Everyone has been great so far, sharing thoughts and engaging. Written quips can go south REAL fast without the contextuals that let the table know where frustration and fun switch over. I'm enjoying this too much to cross over! :)
Yukongil, well-played and a playful quip. Damanta thanks for keeping it open and honest.
Soon I will craft a clever and deadly psychic soldier feared far and wide for his "mind bombs"!
I tell them that they need to target an intersection because the ammo is explosive.
That's why I don't care for targeting intersections. There's a certain cathartic feeling when you get to just blast the enemy directly both in narrative and rules... Not the ground in front of it, or next to it... But after a long or tough battle, just that "I throw the grenade at its face!" feeling.
I had pretty much the exact same reasoning, which is why I said that a case could be made :)
Well played... Well played. :)
I would place the TKP with the explosive in the backpack... It's still two action, one step prep work (the harness) one step activation (spell). I'd add, why not use the same logic in the TPK scenario as the other two? The thought process makes sense, and keeps all of the rules intact. Harnessed grenade, strong string, spell fires, d6 B if it hits, determine intersection by player facing and die roll, boom? Why negate the explosive quality when you can keep all rules intact.
A 0 level spell being able disarm at range with no save and no attack roll is obvious oversight.
Agreed, I couldn't see arguing a standard Ref save. I feel this spell got a last minute edit that left it more open to mischief. Though am now partial to the surprise attack of popping a sidearm or melee weapon out of its holster/sheath - preemptive disarm, damage, and maybe break the weapon. That's a nice combo.
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so what? The arrow just veers off course? The explosive strapped to a wall slides off to one corner? The RPG can only hit tank treads?I want to shoot the badguy in the face with my explody arrow. What do you do?I tell them that they need to target an intersection because the ammo is explosive.
No. Nothing about your flavor changes. You can still hit them in the face, the groin, the tattooed target on their chest, wherever.
But mechanically, you're aiming for the intersection, because that's how Starfinder works.
I'd rule the same way.
This boils down to realism vs. gamism. Luckily, they are both on the same side in this debate.
Gamism: It seems to lack game balance. Everybody can throw a grenade and do blast damage, but somebody with this cantrip can also do impact damage and have a better range without range increment penalties. Seems a little unfair, though it's not so far out of balance that it's game-breaking.
Realism: Grenade pins are not attached loosely to grenades. They are very tight. Cotter pins that are bent back and require a lot of force to yank them out of the grenade. That takes two hands. Not, as Hollywood has suggested, one hand and your teeth (you will lose teeth trying this). It takes about 10 pounds of force to yank the pin, already more than the cantrip can manage. Sure, sure, you can un-bend those pins to reduce the force, but then you can't "hang" the grenade by a string from your vest - just walking around would tend to drop them at your own feet!
I think it should be easy enough to present either or both of these reasons to a player who wants this and get them to understand that it's unfair and unrealistic to create house rules for this idea.
Side note:
My favorite object for this spell is the battery on my opponent's gun! I then fling it at one of his allies, effectively disarming one enemy and bludgeoning another.
(j/k, I pretend the spell requires the object to be unattended, but it would be fun).
so what? The arrow just veers off course? The explosive strapped to a wall slides off to one corner? The RPG can only hit tank treads?I want to shoot the badguy in the face with my explody arrow. What do you do?I tell them that they need to target an intersection because the ammo is explosive.No. Nothing about your flavor changes. You can still hit them in the face, the groin, the tattooed target on their chest, wherever.
But mechanically, you're aiming for the intersection, because that's how Starfinder works.
I'd rule the same way.
cool, so I can play Hawkeye, just buy explosive arrows and declare shots to the most insane targets and as long as I get that 10 I look like a god! Mechanics and narration are colliding my friend and mechanics should never win in such a contest.
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That depends on how you're asking the question.
If you ask me a homebrew question about shooting an explosive arrow straight at someone, I might say you have to hit their KAC or miss entirely and impact the next solid surface behind them, but give them a reflex penalty on a hit.
If you ask a rules question about narrating shooting your grenade arrow at someone, embellishing your description gives no mechanical advantage.
This is a rules forum thread.
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The type of object thrown doesn’t change the damage type or any other properties of the attack.
Pretty straightforward rule.
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I'd allow this, because it sounds really cool to psychically throw grenades, but then would treat it in every way like the grenade was thrown normally. You wouldn't even need the complex string setup.
How would you determine the saving throw?
10 + 1/2 item level + Dex modifier.
Pretty much.
What happens when you miss?
The same thing that happens when you miss with a traditionally thrown grenade.
I might allow the increased spell range if they need to expend a spell for it.
It would target an intersection. Simply less of a headache.