Help with new Kingmaker PC


Advice

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Hello guys!

I'm joining a Kingmaker campaign that just started, and slowly figuring out what to bring to the table.

What is there already: Human Shielded Fighter tank type, Human Samurai of the Flagon dps type, Ratfolk Wizard going rogue and Arcane Trickster and Aasimar Herald caller ranged cleric.

What's allowed: Rolled phenomenal stats, 15, 15, 16, 16, 17, 17. All races up to 20 race point, start at 2nd lvl and going the whole way. All Paizo allowed, 3PP is allowed on a case by case basis.

What I want to try: Well, the stats scream that I should give them some use. I was thinking something akin to this: https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html?fbclid=IwAR2DRgD9Zm4x6jRYh98AtLpHkB 9IGd_1Z-sEZ5SvKIsb4pdbdqRl9RWggRg#id=1621848 and then figuring out how I can make that better.

Other options include a bard of one sort or another, to take advantage of the amount of beatsticks that are going to be around. Just have never played one, so don't know a lot to begin.

Willing to play pretty much anything, something that will work out great, preferably be active and some planning behind everything.

Any suggestions?


Kingmaker DM here.

Bard could be excellent, absolutely.

So active with planning? I notice that no one is really taking a nature bend. Hunter, Ranger, Druid?

Actually, with those stats, a Shaman or Witch would be excellent. Hell, with a Scarred Witch Doctor Half-orc you can have a 17(+2)=19 starting INT, which counts as 21 for all your abilities. Have fun putting EVERYONE to sleep or having the worst misfortune!


I think you're right that a bard (or skald) would work well with two front line types plus a bunch of summons. That could make it cramped trying to get into melee in some cases. Also, there's nothing wrong with having a charisma focused character in Kingmaker if you have ambitions of any kind.

There's a decent chance from that list that none of the other characters has the survival skill trained. I don't think it's a serious spoiler to suggest that with a lot of outdoors exploration you could end up needing someone who can make a shelter against bad weather or something. There are a few bard or skald archetypes which give bonuses to the skill, e.g. cultivator, luring piper or thundercaller bard or hunt caller skald.


avr wrote:

I think you're right that a bard (or skald) would work well with two front line types plus a bunch of summons. That could make it cramped trying to get into melee in some cases. Also, there's nothing wrong with having a charisma focused character in Kingmaker if you have ambitions of any kind.

There's a decent chance from that list that none of the other characters has the survival skill trained. I don't think it's a serious spoiler to suggest that with a lot of outdoors exploration you could end up needing someone who can make a shelter against bad weather or something. There are a few bard or skald archetypes which give bonuses to the skill, e.g. cultivator, luring piper or thundercaller bard or hunt caller skald.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I tried editing my post to expand but it said I exceeded the backtracking limit.

Skald would be great because of the bonuses (like Con and RAGE POWERS) you'll add to not just the melee characters but also the Herald Caller's summons, and you'll be beefier (As I tried saying the first time, if you have such high stats and options, I'm going to assume your DM is also equally going to bring it, as it were).

Since your INT is going to be a 15 pretty much no matter what you do, you're guaranteed a minimum 4 skill points per level, and pretty much every class I'd suggest would give you 6 net, so not having Survival as a class skill might not hurt so much.

Dark Archive

JiaYou wrote:

Kingmaker DM here.

Bard could be excellent, absolutely.

So active with planning? I notice that no one is really taking a nature bend. Hunter, Ranger, Druid?

Actually, with those stats, a Shaman or Witch would be excellent. Hell, with a Scarred Witch Doctor Half-orc you can have a 17(+2)=19 starting INT, which counts as 21 for all your abilities. Have fun putting EVERYONE to sleep or having the worst misfortune!

I have given Hunter quite a bit of thought as well, animal companion and ranged is a good thing. It plays similarly to that inquisitor? The rest of the guys are not too planned out yet, hoping that will change :)

How does a Scarred Witch Doctor play?


JiaYou wrote:
... not having Survival as a class skill might not hurt so much.

In PF a class skill is +3 to the skill rather than a cost reduction as in D&D 3.x. Also there's 70+ bard archetypes and 26 skald archetypes - you have to cut down the number to something you can think about somehow!

Dark Archive

JiaYou wrote:
avr wrote:

I think you're right that a bard (or skald) would work well with two front line types plus a bunch of summons. That could make it cramped trying to get into melee in some cases. Also, there's nothing wrong with having a charisma focused character in Kingmaker if you have ambitions of any kind.

There's a decent chance from that list that none of the other characters has the survival skill trained. I don't think it's a serious spoiler to suggest that with a lot of outdoors exploration you could end up needing someone who can make a shelter against bad weather or something. There are a few bard or skald archetypes which give bonuses to the skill, e.g. cultivator, luring piper or thundercaller bard or hunt caller skald.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I tried editing my post to expand but it said I exceeded the backtracking limit.

Skald would be great because of the bonuses (like Con and RAGE POWERS) you'll add to not just the melee characters but also the Herald Caller's summons, and you'll be beefier (As I tried saying the first time, if you have such high stats and options, I'm going to assume your DM is also equally going to bring it, as it were).

Since your INT is going to be a 15 pretty much no matter what you do, you're guaranteed a minimum 4 skill points per level, and pretty much every class I'd suggest would give you 6 net, so not having Survival as a class skill might not hurt so much.

So there's quite a bit of difference between how a bard plays and a skald aye? I'm thinking quite a lot of buffing would be the case either way, and wondering if I should also fit in some control casting.

Cha focus is something I don't object to at all.

I guess other likes are having an animal companion or a familiar, more actions seem to be the way to go.

That inquisitor build I linked up above looks really promising as well.

Just so many options and I don't want to waste those stats :)


Bards and skalds usually play very similarly unless they have an archetype which changes something drastic. Buffing's there easily, debuffing works with the right spells or feats building on intimidate, control isn't their best thing though.

Most bards and skalds don't get familiars or animal companions (unless they buy them with feats, but that costs 2-3 feats which can noticeably reduce the bard/skalds' effectiveness). A duettist bard gets a useful familiar though. It isn't compatible with the other archetypes I named, but it's useful enough on its own.

An inquisitor with an animal companion is a solid character, but I don't think two extra bodies in melee will be useful with this group.


So this is a Kingmaker game. Who is going to be 'king'? Right off the bat, a high charisma helps so much its painful not having one.

If your GM is going to do Kingdom in the Background it won't matter. But if he is going to do the system where each player becomes a leader in the Kingdom the person who becomes the central leader is charisma based. And Charisma helps with a lot of other positions as well.

Bard is insanely overpowered for Kingmaker. Why? Because it has a lot of abilities to help with social encounters that WILL happen whether you want them to or not. Early game it isn't as important, but as you build a kingdom you really need a party face that can do everything.

Any Bard is one trait away from having Survival as a class skill.

Other charisma based builds are good too, but everything a bard does is so very helpful in Kingmaker.

One archetype to avoid is Archaeologist. Lots of people love the luck bonus it provides. But Kingmaker is a game where you will literally be leading armies and the players are encouraged to take Leadership. The buffing abilities of Bardic Performance are very strong in this AP.


So for control, remember that Bards/Skalds get Grease and Glitterdust. They ALSO get Hideous Laughter as a first level spell as opposed to a second level Sorc/Wiz. If you max your CHA, even a Daze spell could be fairly effective (only used it a few times when I played a skald, but when I used it, it did the job).

The Inquisitor will do more damage on its own than the Bard/Skald probably will, but the Bard/Skald DEFINITELY has more control options than the Inquisitor, can be a better backup healer, and will make your allies more effective to the point that in pure number terms, the Inquisitor will be the worse option.


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As others have said, for Kingdom Building a solid CHR character is pretty important. The good thing is with your stats, you could have a very solid CHR character that didn't even particularly need CHR, so that isn't really a limitation.

Looking at your party, it seems like you have 3 strikers and 1 character who would be excellent at control (summons are better used for control then damage in most cases) so a support build for you seems like a good choice.

As others have said, Bard is a very strong choice (I prefer them to Skalds personally.) I'd have a secondary focus on archery for times when either you really don't need any buffing for the party or when you have done enough (usually a round or two is plenty.)

With either a support character or an archer (and especially both) I like to have a mount. Full round attacks with archery while still being able to move is awesome (and can help avoid cover) and being able to pull out a scroll, move to an ally that needs help and cast in one round is pretty awesome as well.

A duettist archetype bard and a small character can have a mauler familiar mount at 3rd (I like the Rhamphorhynchus because who doesn't want to ride a flying dinosaur.) If fully exploiting your racial options you could have a small sized Tiefling Rakshasa-Spawn (for dex and chr +) with the over-sized limbs (I presume it would be medium weapons, not large for a small tiefling) and be shooting arrows just like a medium creature. If you didn't want to cheese that much, even just a vanilla halfling would be effective.

Another option would be the evangelist cleric. Yes, you already have a cleric but you would be taking very different roles in the combat. The other cleric would help cover for you not having spontaneous cures. I'd be looking at the Animal (feather) domain for a mount and either still go with archery or go for reach tactics. If the other cleric really preferred focusing on damage rather than control, you could by 8th level credibly manage both roles (although not as well as if you each focused) with an inspire courage (for support) and a control spell at the beginning of combat (especially if the arcane trickster was going to start things off with a haste.)


I (Relatively) recently got the opportunity to see a ... slightly odd archetype for Skald in play from the other side of the screen, and was frequently impressed.

Since the 'armies' thing was mentioned above... Bardic Inspire courage is amazing, but ... what if you could stack on a rage power (skald 101) AND, a +4 Str enhancement bonus on top of it, to an army of say 100 pikemen?

The archetype takes the philosophy of hybrid classes, and turns it up to 11. Wildshape (Limited to one animal type), Wild empathy (Same limits), a Hunter Animal Focus (sets the other limits), on top of the already solid class chasis. Yes, there's a cost, but the only major hit, is Spell Kenning.

IF you take it, ask your DM if you can take the 'Bull' Animal Focus, but use a more Kingmaker local creature for what you can Wild Shape / Empathy.

... I took a look at Rage powers ... and I think, that when I send my party through certain sections of KM, I may actually need to throw a Skald at them, with Linnorn Death Curse, Cairn and the above Archetype. .... On second thought, that might be considered Cruel and Unusual Punishment. (Note, if you take the above combinations, and do NOT warn/clear with your DM ahead of time your plans, I give them authorization to poke you repeatedly. It's cruel.)

The Curse:

The character channels the power of a cairn linnorm. The character’s melee attacks deal an additional 1 point of negative energy damage. If the character is knocked unconscious or killed by an attack or spell, the attacker suffers the curse of decay (Will negates). A character must be at least 8th level to select this rage power. Curse of Decay: save Will DC 10 + 1/2 character’s level + character’s Charisma bonus; effect target takes 1 point of Con damage per day and ages at a rate of 1 year per day (eventually incurring all of the penalties of old age but none of the bonuses).

at L8, +8 Str, +4 Con, and the above Rage power to all allies that can hear you, and using it on an Army. Oof. Just think of the Morale implications for the survivors, Even worse if you can make them take other ability damage each day. Poisoned weapons perhaps? <thinks evil thoughts, and uses a less common alias>

Grand Lodge

There are a lot of really cool ragepowers to share with a skald. If you are leading a unit of soldiers then lesser spirit totem and unexpected strike will give each soldier an extra melee attack and a spirit attack

Strength surge is really great for landing combat manuevers.


Personally I would go with a Gathlain Arrowsong Minstrel.

Lots of bardic goodness to help your party plus some serious ranged support so you can do something besides buff/debuff without putting yourself into melee.

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