A rather simply question, albeit one that I can't seem to find asked anywhere else online, but I'm playing in a game of Rise and my character has taken to building constructs with the extra money he makes as the party's resident Greedy character (we're all embodying a sin). My GM told us that in Book 6 the Karzoug fight can be incredibly rough, up to and including possibly doing things like summoning Wall spells to impede the player's progress from reaching him during his fight, which got me to thinking about whether or not dragging along a Golem might not be the worst idea, given that they are (aside from certain specific aspects) immune to magic. Does this extend to things like, say, Prismatic Wall, for instance? Why or why not?
Golems have what amounts to SR: infinity. A wall of stone isn't affected by spell resistance and stops a golem, at least until they break the wall down. A prismatic wall allows spell resistance checks and a golem wanders thru it unaffected.
So what you're all saying is that if I really wanted to I could conceivably make a very big Golem with an opening in its chest cavity, Reduce Person myself so I can easily fit inside, and then have it walk around through whatever magical BS gets sent my way and still be fine?
Theoretically speaking, of course.
A mage on my current Runelords campaign does basicly that with an animated object statue. Closable arrowslits to manipulate LoE and LoS. The rule interactions get weird, talk them out with your GM.
Sounds like the golem armor from Ultimate Magic.
I'm specifically NOT going to do that because tbh wearable construct armor is way overpriced for what it does, and even then I don't plan on actually wearing the Golem as a suit like Iron Man, just as a transportation mechanism should the need arise.
Regardless, we're only in Book 2 or 3 so we've got plenty of time until this becomes an issue, I don't even have Craft Construct as a feat yet, but if and when I do this will be interesting to analyze.
So what you're all saying is that if I really wanted to I could conceivably make a very big Golem with an opening in its chest cavity, Reduce Person myself so I can easily fit inside, and then have it walk around through whatever magical BS gets sent my way and still be fine?
Theoretically speaking, of course.
Not necessarily. Spell resistance allows to ignore the effect, it does not destroy it. Even if golem is unaffected, it doesn't mean that it shields anything else from the effects of the magic. The magical effect may be able to get inside and affect you even with a golem around you. Depends on a spell.
So what you're all saying is that if I really wanted to I could conceivably make a very big Golem with an opening in its chest cavity, Reduce Person myself so I can easily fit inside, and then have it walk around through whatever magical BS gets sent my way and still be fine?
Theoretically speaking, of course.
I had a character that built glass golem and he incorporated a chair into it's body so he could ride around on it. The problem is that unless you are wearing the golem or are fully encapsulated in it like some kind of mobile suit, at most all you're going to get is partial or improved cover. This means that you will still have line of sight from spells and at most only get improved evasion with a bonus instead of flat immunity.
Honestly, golems are less powerful at the levels you can make them then they seem. Monsters at that level have high bonuses to hit and dish out a ridiculous amount of damage and immunity to all magic becomes a burden when teleportation is your primary means of transportation.
I was only a little sad when it finally died and had no desire to bring it back, much less build another one.
immunity to all magic becomes a burden when teleportation is your primary means of transportation.
Teleport doesn't allow spell resistance when used on creatures (though it does require a willing target), so a golem's magic immunity probably shouldn't apply. Gate doesn't allow spell resistance at all.
Teleport doesn't allow spell resistance when used on creatures (though it does require a willing target), so a golem's magic immunity probably shouldn't apply. Gate doesn't allow spell resistance at all.immunity to all magic becomes a burden when teleportation is your primary means of transportation.
Looking at it again, I agree with you. My DM at the time would of been fine with it until it was brought to his attention. He would of looked at the words Magic Immunity and Spell Resistence Yes(object) and ruled against teleporting the golem without bothering to delve deeper into it. What with the golem being a construct.
Until it died, we would just send the golem in the flying invisible carriage to our destination and then everyone else teleported there once it arrived. In general it just meant we had a few extra days of downtime while the thing traveled unmolested.
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Teleport doesn't allow spell resistance when used on creatures (though it does require a willing target), so a golem's magic immunity probably shouldn't apply. Gate doesn't allow spell resistance at all.immunity to all magic becomes a burden when teleportation is your primary means of transportation.
Looking at it again, I agree with you. My DM at the time would of been fine with it until it was brought to his attention. He would of looked at the words Magic Immunity and Spell Resistence Yes(object) and ruled against teleporting the golem without bothering to delve deeper into it. What with the golem being a construct.
Until it died, we would just send the golem in the flying invisible carriage to our destination and then everyone else teleported there once it arrived. In general it just meant we had a few extra days of downtime while the thing traveled unmolested.
I would rule like your GM.
Teleport has: "Spell Resistance no and yes (object)"A golem (unless it is a modified version) has a constant SR that it can't lower, so it is always active.
Even its ability to be a willing target is questionable. A golem has no will, only programming.
So I would treat it as an object, not as a creature.
Obviously, it is a personal opinion.
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So what you're all saying is that if I really wanted to I could conceivably make a very big Golem with an opening in its chest cavity, Reduce Person myself so I can easily fit inside, and then have it walk around through whatever magical BS gets sent my way and still be fine?
Theoretically speaking, of course.
You dun left the rules.
The rules simply do not cover one being inside another. Because at that point its usually digestion and you really don't want rules for that. So whether you have total cover, total cover against most things, or what is up to your DM. He could very well rule that the magic passes harmlessly through the golem. Through you.. not so much.
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Yeah, definitely as a GM I would not allow you to subvert things by hopping inside a golem to otherwise avoid the affects of magic spells that allow spell resistance.
Or at least it's probably not going to work the way you want it to.
With most wall spells they're conjuration with an instantaneous duration and or the creation subschool, which makes them not interact with spell resistance. For other ones, like prismatic wall, while they do allow spell resistance I'd be inclined to rule it doesn't affect the golem, but does affect you.
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So what you're all saying is that if I really wanted to I could conceivably make a very big Golem with an opening in its chest cavity, Reduce Person myself so I can easily fit inside, and then have it walk around through whatever magical BS gets sent my way and still be fine?
Theoretically speaking, of course.
You dun left the rules.
The rules simply do not cover one being inside another. Because at that point its usually digestion and you really don't want rules for that. So whether you have total cover, total cover against most things, or what is up to your DM. He could very well rule that the magic passes harmlessly through the golem. Through you.. not so much.
T'is I, Gorgon Ramsey. Today we're going to cook some delicious adventurer stew. First, you'll want to get yourself a gargantuan sized, cast-iron golem. Make sure he's hollowed out big enough to hold our main ingredient. Four positively stupid adventurers.
Start up your wall of flame and load your adventurers into the golem. The golem can take intense heat, so make sure you keep in there in the flames till your adventures reach an internal temperature of about 165° F. Any less and they'll be f+@*ing raw!
TIHS SPEL
<angry_ramsey_pic>
KAN'T!
I would rule like your GM.
Teleport has: "Spell Resistance no and yes (object)"
A golem (unless it is a modified version) has a constant SR that it can't lower, so it is always active.
Even its ability to be a willing target is questionable. A golem has no will, only programming.
So I would treat it as an object, not as a creature.Obviously, it is a personal opinion.
The one flaw in this reasoning is that golems are not objects. They are creatures. Also while their will is limited it does exist so if their owner tells them to do something they are willing.
The (yes)object line on SR does not apply to creatures, which golems are.
The spell description clarifies when each of the two spell resistance options applies, and it agrees with Gilfalas:
As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is Spell Resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance.
"Spell descriptions are rules, too!" is developing into this year's Rules Questions theme. : )
I'm not feeling too hot and am a bit loopy on pain meds at the moment so my first thought on seeing the thread title was 'Wall of Stone' and I was immensely confused as to what could possibly conjure that question.
I am largely relieved (but also somewhat disappointed) that this thread is about golems passing through non-solid Wall spells and not someone arguing that they can pass through physical barriers simply because the barriers were conjured by a spell.
For what it's worth: A golem with magic immunity can tank just about every kind of Wall spell that can be passed through, unless a description otherwise says they're vulnerable to it.
While you might make a spae within the golum, you could instead add construct storage instead. It is an extradimensional space the construct can access.
See the Craft Construct page. Near the bottom, look for the heading "Construct Storage".
Now you can go cut off from LoS and LoE until the construct pulls you out.
/cevah
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The spell description clarifies when each of the two spell resistance options applies, and it agrees with Gilfalas:
As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is Spell Resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance."Spell descriptions are rules, too!" is developing into this year's Rules Questions theme. : )
You have missed noticing a few you in that citation.
The part about "nor is Spell Resistance applicable to you" is applicable to the spellcaster, not the people touched by the spell caster.It is made very clear in the first row of text you cited: "As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you".
Teleport has two sets of ranges and targets:
Range personal and touch
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
@Gilfalas That why I wrote: "Obviously, it is a personal opinion."
I agree that it is not RAW.
RAW is:
Immunity to Magic (Ex) A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
Does teleport allow spell resistance? Yes, to a specific kind of targets: objects.
What is the requirement to affect a true golem with a spell? That it doesn't allow SR. There isn't any consideration about "don't allow SR to creatures".It can seem implicit that the meaning is "A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance when applied to a creature", but implicit thing are always questionable when we argue RAW.
BTW, it seems that no one has checked what it means (object). It doesn't mean "restricted to objects".
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 +1/2 the item’s caster level.
and
The terms “object” and “harmless” mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws.
You are turning "attended or magical objects can roll a Saving throw and benefit from SR" to "only attended or magical objects can roll a Saving throw and benefit from SR".
In your own quote, following the thing you emphasized:
Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance.
If it isn't an object attended by someone else, it doesn't get a saving throw and spell resistance doesn't apply.
Nobody's turning it into "only"--it says "only" right there, at least for that spell.
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In your own quote, following the thing you emphasized:
Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance.If it isn't an object attended by someone else, it doesn't get a saving throw and spell resistance doesn't apply.
Nobody's turning it into "only"--it says "only" right there, at least for that spell.
And?
Where it says that creatures don't get SR?All it says is that an object needs to be held or attended by another creature to get a save or SR.
I repeat, you guy fail to apply the meaning of (object).
While you might make a spae within the golum, you could instead add construct storage instead. It is an extradimensional space the construct can access.
See the Craft Construct page. Near the bottom, look for the heading "Construct Storage".
Now you can go cut off from LoS and LoE until the construct pulls you out.
/cevah
I'm actually kind of shocked that I missed that, and it fits perfectly within my plan of "Reduce Person myself to fit" given that the MAXIMUM size limit for a Small creature is 4', and my character is definitely not the max height of a Medium creature so he's assuredly less than that.
Plus since I'd be in an extradimensional space it also bypasses everyone's assertions that I'd be cooked by the Wall despite it not affecting the Golem. So neener to all of you guys ;P
While you might make a spae within the golum, you could instead add construct storage instead. It is an extradimensional space the construct can access.
See the Craft Construct page. Near the bottom, look for the heading "Construct Storage".
Now you can go cut off from LoS and LoE until the construct pulls you out.
/cevah
I'm actually kind of shocked that I missed that, and it fits perfectly within my plan of "Reduce Person myself to fit" given that the MAXIMUM size limit for a Small creature is 4', and my character is definitely not the max height of a Medium creature so he's assuredly less than that.
Plus since I'd be in an extradimensional space it also bypasses everyone's assertions that I'd be cooked by the Wall despite it not affecting the Golem. So neener to all of you guys ;P
Just make sure you're wearing a necklace of adaption or something similar, or else you're going to be stuck with a limited air supply
Just make sure you're wearing a necklace of adaption or something similar, or else you're going to be stuck with a limited air supplyWhile you might make a spae within the golum, you could instead add construct storage instead. It is an extradimensional space the construct can access.
See the Craft Construct page. Near the bottom, look for the heading "Construct Storage".
Now you can go cut off from LoS and LoE until the construct pulls you out.
/cevah
I'm actually kind of shocked that I missed that, and it fits perfectly within my plan of "Reduce Person myself to fit" given that the MAXIMUM size limit for a Small creature is 4', and my character is definitely not the max height of a Medium creature so he's assuredly less than that.
Plus since I'd be in an extradimensional space it also bypasses everyone's assertions that I'd be cooked by the Wall despite it not affecting the Golem. So neener to all of you guys ;P
Eh, I'll be in there for less than a minute, I'm sure it'll be fine.
While you might make a space within the golum, you could instead add construct storage instead. It is an extradimensional space the construct can access.
See the Craft Construct page. Near the bottom, look for the heading "Construct Storage".
Now you can go cut off from LoS and LoE until the construct pulls you out.
I'm actually kind of shocked that I missed that, and it fits perfectly within my plan of "Reduce Person myself to fit" given that the MAXIMUM size limit for a Small creature is 4', and my character is definitely not the max height of a Medium creature so he's assuredly less than that.
Plus since I'd be in an extradimensional space it also bypasses everyone's assertions that I'd be cooked by the Wall despite it not affecting the Golem. So neener to all of you guys ;P
A standard real life human is about 2 cubic feet. The space of 4 cubic feet could carry two humans. Air, however...
:-)/cevah
While you might make a space within the golum, you could instead add construct storage instead. It is an extradimensional space the construct can access.
See the Craft Construct page. Near the bottom, look for the heading "Construct Storage".
Now you can go cut off from LoS and LoE until the construct pulls you out.
I'm actually kind of shocked that I missed that, and it fits perfectly within my plan of "Reduce Person myself to fit" given that the MAXIMUM size limit for a Small creature is 4', and my character is definitely not the max height of a Medium creature so he's assuredly less than that.
Plus since I'd be in an extradimensional space it also bypasses everyone's assertions that I'd be cooked by the Wall despite it not affecting the Golem. So neener to all of you guys ;P
A standard real life human is about 2 cubic feet. The space of 4 cubic feet could carry two humans. Air, however...
:-)/cevah
Yeah, after research and math, long story short 2 ft³ of air will support a fully resting person for about 8 minutes. That's resting though, consider the claustrophobia of being cramped into that small a space, the accelerated heart rate from any number of stresses including the fact you're likely in combat, you're looking at suffocating.
That's also average air. Assuming it's a Wall of Fire you're looking to go through, the fire would raise the heat of the air and move the particles apart, so your air quality will be lesser, cutting the number harder. As a GM I'd rule it basic suffocation/drowning rules. Roll Con every round of fall unconscious, and they second that happens you're not commanding your construct. So this plan is a deathwish plan.
It's an extradimensional space so YOU aren't actually going through the Wall of Fire yourself, plus you're not taking any extra actions every round so the standard 2Xcon rules for holding your breath would apply, and all of that is assuming that by the time you're able to do this you can't just conjure up an Air Bubble either with your own magic or, barring that, a potion or scroll.
As for commanding the construct, just telling it to get near the enemy and release me either when it does or if it's about to die should be sufficient.