Generally, when one looks at rebellions, the distinction between rural and city is a pretty important one. Sometimes they have different priorities. Sometimes they are on opposite sides. Certainly, mountains and forests provide redoubts for rebellions (e.g. Haiti, Scotland). We get a goodly amount of info about Vyre, which I've dubbed the Vegas of Cheliax. We get some info about the Strix.
But what about the ordinary schlubs in the quarries and farmlands of Ravounel? What are their economic interests? What do they want out of the rebellion? What role can they play? Are they allied or opposed to Kintargo before the start? What do they feel about the aristocracy? What's a vision of the future that they'll fight for?
There's several opportunities to learn about their values, interests, and potential: the trip to Menador Gap, any overland trips to the Dismal Nitch, and Book 5's survey of the Archduchy to sign up everyone.
Traditionally rural populations have very little to do with urban revolutions. I am pretty sure this was the case in France.
The rural people would not want the upheaval that a revolution would cause. In these times I imagine their food sales to the army would be vital for them. Unless the army is just seizing it - then you have a different matter.
So my instinct would be this wouldn't be a source of support. If it was then it might have been mentioned in the AP itself...
As an aside my players has dubbed Vyre - "Las Vyre" as well
|
This pretty much has to be made up out of whole cloth. Though as you point out, there are plenty of opportunities to learn about the rural folk, the AP only details Acisazi, the strix settlement in Ravounel Forest whose name I forget, and Oakrib Inn, while also naming the fairly large settlements of Cypress Point (a depressed fishing port) and Whiterock (a depot for stone and silver quarried and mined upriver).
The freeholders possibly fear displacement by imported slave labor if Thrune gets the chance to make thoroughgoing reforms. Serfs and renters probably resent all their landlords living absentee in Kintargo, and want land reform (either conversion of estates to common property or to individual plots). Woodcutters probably want access to Ravounel Forest and may eventually clash with the strix in the same way the woodcutters did in Andoran if left to their own devices. Miners (who are quite likely to be halfling for the same reasons we had children working in mines for a long time) probably just want a reduction in their body-destroying hours.
@Lanathar, writing off a whole population as a source of support is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The French peasantry you invoke only became wholly conservative once its demands for land reform were granted - before and during the Great Revolution they were split by region and religion.
Thanks for clarifying on the French rural classes.
I was making a sweeping statement based on some vague memory of the most fervent anti revolutionaries being from a rural area and being real hold out - I forget where now (and this all comes from the Revolutions podcast)
Of course a whole population wouldn’t have one viewpoint but there could be a real rabbit hole to go down here if all minutae were explored. And roguerogue’s post seemed to be looking at the idea the rural population was anti thrune when there is a good chance a fair portion would not have been particularly in favour of the free wheeling arty kintargo that existed prior takeover . But we don’t know this for sure
I was going to also say that rural areas seem to typically skew conservative but a large portion of that seems to be due to land owners rather than population (Victorian England). That said present day US skews heavily republican in rural areas - an avenue of discussion that I imagine is best kept off of the main boards (both for controversy reasons and because I am not American so may have some misunderstandings)
Without wishing to hijack - I assume there is also a split in the urban population by the very nature that supporters for the ravens have to be built up? Or is the idea that there are
- a few hardcore thrune supporters
- a few (and rising) revolutionaries
- most who are against thrune but not going to get involved
And I guess a group who want to keep their heads down?
I ask because my group seem to work on the assumption that anyone who seems moderately supportive of Barzillai are just scum. And I don’t think it is that simple
“The world isn’t split into good people and Death Eaters” after all. I am sure there is more intellectual non Harry Potter quote that explains the same sentiment...
|
|
I was making a sweeping statement based on some vague memory of the most fervent anti revolutionaries being from a rural area and being real hold out - I forget where now (and this all comes from the Revolutions podcast)
You're probably thinking of the Vendee. Which had much of its Huguenot population replaced by Catholics in the Wars of Religion, who were thus sensitive to the anticlerical Revolution and revolted in the name of the Ancean Regime more than once.
(both for controversy reasons and because I am not American so may have some misunderstandings)
Probably. "Rural" is too broad a descriptor - the kind of rural poor players would be likely to encounter in Kintargo are the categories I mentioned above: freeholding farmers, tenant farmers of various types, woodcutters, and miners/quarriers. The sort of rural Americans you're thinking of are more likely to be un- or semi-employed proletarians for various historical reasons.
Without wishing to hijack - I assume there is also a split in the urban population by the very nature that supporters for the ravens have to be built up? Or is the idea that there are
- a few hardcore thrune supporters
- a few (and rising) revolutionaries
- most who are against thrune but not going to get involvedAnd I guess a group who want to keep their heads down?
The AP more or less runs with the assumption that everyone who isn't a hard-core Thrune supporter will eventually align with the SRs with only a minimal effort on the latter's part, based on lesser-evil politics. Your take is far more true-to-life.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rural poor in societies like Ravounel are often quite prone to rebellion, but you're right that they're not likely to take up arms on behalf of restoring the status quo. Their most pressing issues are, as zimmerwald1915 said, based around land reform and the abolition of usurious debts; any program that doesn't include something along those lines will have trouble winning more than lukewarm sympathy.
Beyond that, they're likely to raise demands for the new government to start investing in rural infrastructure and eradicate illiteracy, for local elections, and for the legalization of their traditional religious practices.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
usurious debts
I feel ashamed for having neglected to mention this.
There's even a decent pretext for it too. The House of Golden Veils is rightful property of the Church of Calistria, and of course justice demands that the overthrow of Thrune power carry with it a restoration. The Abadarans can have a place in the communal temple that was previously Asmodeus's and Aroden's before him, and be grateful that as fence-sitters 'til the last they're not treated more harshly. But the House of Golden Veils has been adorned with and the safe house for seventy years' worth of the wealth of the nation on top of the original Calistrian property, and that excess should fall to the government for redistribution - in the form of some direct restitution (not too much, the new state needs a treasury) but mostly in the form of cancelling debts.
Beyond that, they're likely to raise demands for the new government to start investing in rural infrastructure and eradicate illiteracy, for local elections, and for the legalization of their traditional religious practices.
Seconded, though the point about illiteracy is kindof moot, unless we toss out the mechanics/rules that say every humanoid can read. It would likely be the lowest on the rural poor's list of priorities anyway, out of the ones listed. Fostering literacy tends to be the project of the already-literate, while infrastructure helps people bring goods to market, and political and religious autonomy are self-evident goods from the perspective of the people getting them.
that's an excellent pretext. more cynically, alleviating a bit of the aristocracy's debt burden is a useful carrot to be able to dangle if they start to dig in their heels against the pace of reforms
adding to the list of rural poor strata: for horsebreeding to be a profitable export industry, there'd probably need to be a decent number of landless ranch hands. In my old campaign Delronge used Shoanti indentured laborers.
|
|
adding to the list of rural poor strata: for horsebreeding to be a profitable export industry, there'd probably need to be a decent number of landless ranch hands. In my old campaign Delronge used Shoanti indentured laborers.
I'm pretty sure the Shoanti don't range as far south as Ravounel, being descendants of Thassilonian slaves and staying close to those ancestral lands. But that's a minor nitpick. The Nidalese were supposed to have been horsemen before Earthfall, and some of that tradition probably survives on the North Plains.
Yeah, they were imported from korvosa. It was something the GM came up with to accommodate a player who really wanted to play a shoanti hunter.
Your comment about Halfling miners has me thinking though. There would likely already be an illegal mineworkers union, loosely affiliated with the Bellflowers, operating in many of the pits. Maybe Lara sends the players to reestablish contact with them, and the SRs gain a team of Freedom Fighter/Saboteur hybrids.
|
|
Your comment about Halfling miners has me thinking though. There would likely already be an illegal mineworkers union, loosely affiliated with the Bellflowers, operating in many of the pits. Maybe Lara sends the players to reestablish contact with them, and the SRs gain a team of Freedom Fighter/Saboteur hybrids.
Speaking of Korvosa, they have an illegal trade union in their local iron foundry, and Clegg Zincher is supposed to be the head of the longshoremen's union in Riddleport. While both of these things are from early setting material and saw no play in either Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, or Return of the Runelords, in my Golarion the trade union form has spread along a significant stretch of the Steaming Sea.
Should I ever run HR, I'd have the occupation of Sallix Salt Works be as much motivated by a desire to crush just such an organization of which Forvian Crowe and his entourage are leaders as by Sallix's back taxes. I hadn't given much thought to the silver miners and granite quarriers, because they play no role whatsoever in the AP as written, but you're right that they should be organizing as well. Probably along just the lines you suggest in the case of the miners.
Rather than being given a quest to establish contact by Laria, however, I'd put the quest hook in Whiterock as the players are traveling upriver to the Menador Gap.
Speaking of Korvosa, they have an illegal trade union in their local iron foundry, and Clegg Zincher is supposed to be the head of the longshoremen's union in Riddleport. While both of these things are from early setting material and saw no play in either Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, or Return of the Runelords, in my Golarion the trade union form has spread along a significant stretch of the Steaming Sea.
I've had similar thoughts. If you combine that with Vespam nascent cooperative movement and the agrarian program we were just discussing, you start to see the foundations for a genuine alternative development model for Ravounel.
that might deserve its own thread, though
Of course a whole population wouldn’t have one viewpoint but there could be a real rabbit hole to go down here if all minutae were explored. And roguerogue’s post seemed to be looking at the idea the rural population was anti thrune when there is a good chance a fair portion would not have been particularly in favour of the free wheeling arty kintargo that existed prior takeover . But we don’t know this for sure
I actually want to return to this, because by focusing solely on the rural poor we might have accidentally given the false impression that the SRs wouldn't face any deep reservoirs of rural conservatism in Ravounel. And of course they would. For one thing, there's a substantial minority who are fairly economically comfortable, and whose conservatism is likely to take the form of loyalty to their Count(ess)/Baron(ess) rather than the queen.
There's also the Church of Asmodeus: while most people in Ravounel regard it with sullen indifference, I'm sure there are areas where it has managed to set down roots among some segment of the population.
|
|
For one thing, there's a substantial minority who are fairly economically comfortable, and whose conservatism is likely to take the form of loyalty to their Count(ess)/Baron(ess) rather than the queen.
You'd probably find such people in Whiterock, which is prosperous in part because Baron Jhaltero is a hands-on manager with an eye toward development. Another center of conservatism might be, as I've alluded to at least once, the woodcutters around Ravounel Forest, whose interests conflict with those of the strix who hold the key to keeping the region part of Ravounel.
There's also the Church of Asmodeus: while most people in Ravounel regard it with sullen indifference, I'm sure there are areas where it has managed to set down roots among some segment of the population.
I'm less sure about this. The Asmodeans would probably find their support among customs collectors at waypoints along the Yolubilis River, and at places like the Oakrib Inn that depend on stable flows of travel and trade - likely displacing the Abadarans in this, their natural flock. I also think tieflings are more likely than other populations to gravitate toward the Church of Asmodeus, because it is the one - if fickle - patron they have in Chelaxian society as it exists. But they are also a typically urban and indeed ghettoized population, so not really relevant to a discussion of the rural population.
I was assuming it would be somewhere like Sarini's county seat. The result of an active and ongoing missionary effort bankrolled by their House, who are deeply embarrassed by the "superstitious backwardness" of their subjects.
Dangerous line of reasoning ahead. The current conservative position of rural America can be traced back to a mistrust of government and a strong desire for religious freedom - two primary roots of American culture and political thought. Straying back to safer ground - the rural population of Ravounel most likely prefers the laissez faire governance of the Bainilus regime and the overall neglect from the Noble houses to any greater exertion of authority by House Thrune and stomping on their religious practices by ruthless Asmodeans. They don't want city folk telling them what to do. If the Silver Ravens show up and say either "We're going to keep Thrune and Asmodeus out of rural Ravounel" or "We're going to kick them out of rural Ravounel" that should get pretty broad support. Especially as the rural population is not being asked to take on much risk to make it happen. The pc's take the risk of confronting dark powers in the region (which are admittedly not directly Thrune agents) and none of Barzillai's reprisals target the rural areas. Which makes economic and political sense - his goal is a long and uneventful reign as Lord Mayor - fostering economic disruption by alienating or harming the rural population (which provides much of the economic underpinning of the city) would be very high on the bad idea list. The uppity folk - intelligentsia, economic elites, other priesthoods - are concentrated in the city. If he's going to have trouble, it's going to come from there.
|
i imagine that they are probably supportive, even if they aren't exactly pouring into Kintargo to offer their support.
Freeholders are probably anxious about Thrune confiscating their crops as the war with the Glorious Reclamation goes, but likewise, know that Thrune WILL take their land if the rebellion fails.
As such, the countryside is probably quiet, even while the city is astir.
This isn't so much the classic French Revolution of the 1790s or even the better comparison, the Liberal Revolution of 1830, which deposed the Bourbons in favor of the July Monarchy.
Nope... the secret truth is...
Hell's Rebels is ... wait for it ...
The Student Uprising of 1832. Which failed and was crushed quickly, and would have been forgotten, were it not for a fella named Victor Hugo and a little book called "Les Miserables".
Yup. Your party is Marius and Jean Valjean and Eponin and Gavroche.
Do you hear the people sing?
|
|
Yup. Your party is Marius and Jean Valjean and Eponin and Gavroche.
Nah, it's worse than that. They all ended up dead, but that's better than what your party ends up doing at the end of HR: resurrecting an ancient feudal institution and clamping down on the very forces they unleashed. Possibly bloodily, it's left vague.
Funny you should mention that: The party's putting on a play described as Les Miserables But We Win to recruit the Shelynites. And the cohort of one PC is a 14 year-old girl, basically Eponine.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This has all been great! I'm going to use all of this.
I've been playing up the cultural politics unleashed by Thrune prior to this point--I'm excited to show the underlying structural, religious, and economic underpinnings of a group that I've been rather simplistic about thus far.
|
|
This has all been great! I'm going to use all of this.
I've been playing up the cultural politics unleashed by Thrune prior to this point--I'm excited to show the underlying structural, religious, and economic underpinnings of a group that I've been rather simplistic about thus far.
Please write a campaign journal, or get a player to do so, if possible?
|
|
Yup. Your party is Marius and Jean Valjean and Eponin and Gavroche.Nah, it's worse than that. They all ended up dead, but that's better than what your party ends up doing at the end of HR: resurrecting an ancient feudal institution and clamping down on the very forces they unleashed. Possibly bloodily, it's left vague.
eh.
also, Marius made it out alive. Injured, but alive. Got the girl, too.
|
|
** spoiler omitted **
No need for spoiler tags, the thread's title is warning enough.
As for the content, it is entirely too focused on forms. Democracy has always been midwifed by the class struggle, so that it may be fought out in a political forum. But here not only is that absent in the text, but the player party imposes upon it limits that must not be crossed: five families at least must always and forever have veto power over the enfranchised people, no matter how broad the franchise may get (it's not clear exactly how broad it is to begin with), or the country will be drowned in blood.
Please write a campaign journal, or get a player to do so, if possible?This has all been great! I'm going to use all of this.
I've been playing up the cultural politics unleashed by Thrune prior to this point--I'm excited to show the underlying structural, religious, and economic underpinnings of a group that I've been rather simplistic about thus far.
I'll post what happens in the rural areas here. Later on, I'll do a full recap of the entire campaign in a separate thread.
Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to reveal this information through meaningful choices provided to the players.
And even more disappointingly, two of the most reactionary families of the old ruling class remain close to the center of power, rather than having their assets and titles stripped from them before being sent into exile. Along with the terms of the Treaty, it's absolutely a defeat for the movement.
But I don't think it's necessarily as catastrophic as you're framing it. As you said, democracy is midwifed by class struggle. As long as the player party keep their grassroots supporters mobilized around a set of radical democratic demands, I think it would be possible to reduce the vote of the governors to a ceremonial ratification of the popular vote without technically violating the contract. And for Tanessen and Delronge to be thankful they were left with even that much. It all depends on what happens between Barzy's final death and the opening of the Ravounel Constituent Assembly
EDIT: I don't want to anyone to think I'm saying that sort of fragile rules-lawyering with the terms of the contract is a viable solution in the long run. Just that it might be possible for Ravounel's revolutionary process to continue even after hitting that considerable roadblock.
|
|
As long as the player party keep their grassroots supporters mobilized around a set of radical democratic demands
And how do you propose they do that when by all appearances the reconstitution of the Board of Governors is their doing? And when the whole enterprise fairly stinks of letting the revolutionary process in the rest of the country go hang for narrow sectional interest?
State it plainly: the last two books of HR have the player party betray.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is nothing that requires the Board of Governors to continue after appointing a Lord Mayor with the right to invoke the Kintagro Contract. Indeed it is in Ravounel's interest for the Board to be permanently disbanded so no future Lord Mayor can reverse the stance on Thrune's presence. The Contract swings both ways - if it takes a legally correct (in Contract terms) Lord Mayor to invite Thrune out, it takes a legally correct Lord Mayor to invite them in. If there is no Board to appoint such a Lord Mayor, Thrune is out permanently.
The AP assumes a certain amount of civility on the part of the Ravens that probably isn't justified by conditions on the ground. If the Contract isn't invoked, Cheliax is going to show up and curb-stomp the entire city - the Ravens and their followers will either be dead, enslaved or in exile. It's going to make the worst of Barzillai's excesses look like Mardi Gras. The Ravens don't have anything to lose. So their proposition to reluctant Board members could simply be: "You may think holding out gives Abrogail time to save your butt but if the Contract isn't invoked, the rest of us are all dead. If that's the road we go down, we'll see to it you and everything you know and love is destroyed first. Sure you don't want to get on board (pun intended)?" Given the flimsy precedents of other legitimate Board members, the Ravens could adopt a simpler solution - kill Delronges and Tanessens until they find one that says "Yes."
Don't get me started about the silliness of the treaty negotiations in Book 6.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
State it plainly: the last two books of HR have the player party betray.
I mean, you're entirely right. In fact, the ways that the campaign reduces oppression to an issue of personalities instead of structures, conceptualizes radical politics as something handled by teams of experts, and paints compromise with reactionary elites as a victory.... It's an oddly prophetic portrait of how US liberals would respond to their own night of ashes.
Rereading it, my last post sounds breezily confident when it was really more of a thought experiment. But both the version I gmed and the version i played (neither of which got far past book 3) were planning on handling the endgame quite differently.
There is nothing that requires the Board of Governors to continue after appointing a Lord Mayor with the right to invoke the Kintagro Contract. Indeed it is in Ravounel's interest for the Board to be permanently disbanded so no future Lord Mayor can reverse the stance on Thrune's presence. The Contract swings both ways - if it takes a legally correct (in Contract terms) Lord Mayor to invite Thrune out, it takes a legally correct Lord Mayor to invite them in. If there is no Board to appoint such a Lord Mayor, Thrune is out permanently.
I had to go back and reread the text to be sure, but damn that interpretation seems just as logical as my initial one. And it could simplify a hell of a lot.
If you really want to scare an aristocrat though, threaten them with a deeply public humiliation. Explain that the Sarinis are going to face a public jury trial where their servants, serfs, and secret tiefling children would testify against them in front of a courtroom of gawking commoners.
|
|
There is nothing that requires the Board of Governors to continue after appointing a Lord Mayor with the right to invoke the Kintagro Contract.
That is not the way to interpret an Infernal Contract. The canon of interpretation should be "that interpretation is true which will most screw the interpreter, particularly if the interpreter is mortal" and assumptions should be made in light of that. Under this interpretation, the assumption that the edict of a previous Lord-Mayor regarding the movement of Thrune troops through Ravounel stands until it is modified is erroneous, and invites disaster should it be relied upon. Rather, each successive Lord-Mayor must renew it, or else it lapses and Thrune may do as it likes.
So their proposition to reluctant Board members could simply be: "You may think holding out gives Abrogail time to save your butt but if the Contract isn't invoked, the rest of us are all dead. If that's the road we go down, we'll see to it you and everything you know and love is destroyed first. Sure you don't want to get on board (pun intended)?" Given the flimsy precedents of other legitimate Board members, the Ravens could adopt a simpler solution - kill Delronges and Tanessens until they find one that says "Yes."
I entirely agree, and actually the AP isn't quite as barren on this score as you say. It calls out the option to bribe or coerce (by threats, force, or magic) multiple Board members, with particular emphasis on Melodia Delronge. The threats work even better, in fact, if the Ravens have managed to foment peasant risings in the countryside so that the Board members who are absentee landlords have their sensitive parts in a vise, so to speak.
Don't get me started about the silliness of the treaty negotiations in Book 6.
Oh no, please, I insist. I've gone on elsewhere about how the terms of the treaty establish a basically servile relationship, and would like to hear your thoughts.
I mean, you're entirely right. In fact, the ways that the campaign reduces oppression to an issue of personalities instead of structures, conceptualizes radical politics as something handled by teams of experts, and paints compromise with reactionary elites as a victory.... It's an oddly prophetic portrait of how US liberals would respond to their own night of ashes.
Indeed.
The treaty is overtly neocolonial, complete with a clearly one-sided trade arrangement, a Chelish military base inside Ravounel's borders, and an obligation to send soldiers to help Cheliax maintain its hegemony over other former colonies.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The treaty is overtly neocolonial, complete with a clearly one-sided trade arrangement, a Chelish military base inside Ravounel's borders, and an obligation to send soldiers to help Cheliax maintain its hegemony over other former colonies.
makes for a nice secondary campaign where the PCs play Michael Collins trying to keep the treaty intact against the hardliners in a replay of the Irish Civil War.
"You gave up the north..." never fails to get me.
|
|
And even more disappointingly, two of the most reactionary families of the old ruling class remain close to the center of power, rather than having their assets and titles stripped from them before being sent into exile. Along with the terms of the Treaty, it's absolutely a defeat for the movement.
But I don't think it's necessarily as catastrophic as you're framing it. As you said, democracy is midwifed by class struggle. As long as the player party keep their grassroots supporters mobilized around a set of radical democratic demands, I think it would be possible to reduce the vote of the governors to a ceremonial ratification of the popular vote without technically violating the contract. And for Tanessen and Delronge to be thankful they were left with even that much. It all depends on what happens between Barzy's final death and the opening of the Ravounel Constituent Assembly
EDIT: I don't want to anyone to think I'm saying that sort of fragile rules-lawyering with the terms of the contract is a viable solution in the long run. Just that it might be possible for Ravounel's revolutionary process to continue even after hitting that considerable roadblock.
well... that's an interesting analysis.
perhaps the AP truly is more the July Revolution of 1830 than the June Rebellion of 1832?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... geeze. awfully bleak.
I mean... if your PCs are like hyper involved in the characters, it might make for a really fun follow up homebrew campaign to pick up the action a generation later, as Ravounel has fallen back into despotism... oh geeze... and it's backed by this cruel Nidalese conspiracy... (maybe the mayor has been subverted... and man... that's a good idea...
goes to the notepad!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Need some help fleshing out possible rural scenes to add what the PCs could do:
Menador Gap: Depressed trade due to its high security status now leads to rock-bottom prices at the local inns. Perhaps a scene of soldiers buying local crops at criminally low costs, with one saying that they're lucky they're not confiscating them for the war effort. The PCs will probably solve this problem with violence and kidnapping of the soldiers... but if they don't pay the local farmers in the hills, they'll face financial ruin. How much would this cost: 1,000 gp for a winter's supply run?
Plains: Abadaran priest foreclosing on a renter's family farm, forcing the farmers to become serfs. Why is the farm being foreclosed on? How do I complicate this?
Plains: What problems would ranchers in the Delronge family horse-breeding business have?
Near Ravounel Forest: Find company store rates on rations and wilderness tools to be insanely high due to a requirement to pay only in company paper currency, which you have to buy with gold from the Abadaran church. Maybe no intervention here?
Religion: Something to establish the oppression of Gozreh worshippers or ancestor worship? Maybe Asmodean cleric leading a mob to root out a witch or a druid?
Halfling miners at Baron Jhaltero's Whiterock mines stage a walkout until conditions improve. Baron Jhaltero happens to be there (or a trusted cousin?), is unable to convince them to work while the improvements are made, and finally uses his family retinue to force the workers to go back to work. The PCs face a choice of allying with the Bellflower network or Jhaltero (a tougher choice at my table, as a PC is the Baron's daughter.) I may have Laria tag along to be escorted here, then have the PCs stop to pick her up on the way back only to discover that organizing this was why she was here.
|
|
perhaps the AP truly is more the July Revolution of 1830 than the June Rebellion of 1832?
It's 1905 Russia, where the valuable takeaway wasn't the reforms themselves (Finland was about as autonomous after 1905 as Ravounel is after 4715), but in the experience of the revolution itself. It'll all happen again in 10 to 15 years.
|
|
perhaps the AP truly is more the July Revolution of 1830 than the June Rebellion of 1832?It's 1905 Russia, where the valuable takeaway wasn't the reforms themselves (Finland was about as autonomous after 1905 as Ravounel is after 4715), but in the experience of the revolution itself. It'll all happen again in 10 to 15 years.
ergh...
dunno...
the takeaway from russia in 1905 was that you cannot compromise with villainy. and villainy triumphs and everyone has to start again, but everything turns out for the worse.
i don't think that hell's rebels is that. i think it's a hopeful revolution. good people (the PCs) are in charge. they make sure that the ship is steered right.
as such, as far as modern revolutions go, it's closer to ... geeze... various failed revolutions from the 19th centuries, but those people didn't have the advantage of having the PCs helping out.
it's fantasy. have fun. have your glorious revolution. without the horrifying aftermath.
When this came up in our Hell's Rebel's game, the observation was made that Ravounel is not particularly culturally Chellish, and most of the overtures towards Egorian are made by the aristocrats who stand to gain from it. So we figured that your average Ravouneli turnip farmer is someone who probably would like to see Abrogail Thrune dead in a ditch but were never in any position to do anything about it.
Remember cultural heroes like Jackdaw belong to all of Ravounel and it's really unlikely your average village farrier or cooper was hoping the Diabolists won the Chellish civil war.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is a very useful thread when I'll start to prep for my own run of this campaign. Still got to get through more than half of Shattered Star and maybe Return of the Runelords will be voted up before it, though...
|
|
i don't think that hell's rebels is that. i think it's a hopeful revolution. good people (the PCs) are in charge. they make sure that the ship is steered right.
* * *
it's fantasy. have fun. have your glorious revolution. without the horrifying aftermath.
What's the point of having a revolution if its makers can't criticize its development every step of the way?
When this came up in our Hell's Rebel's game, the observation was made that Ravounel is not particularly culturally Chellish
Where does this notion come from? Ravounel has been a subject of Cheliax since the Even-Tongued Conquest, and Taldor before that. Its inhabitants speak the Taldane language, name their children in the Chelaxian style, and use Chelaxian terms like "dottari." The predominant human ethnicity in Cheliax is Chelaxian. Its high culture is Chelish, with an emphasis on the opera. It was Arodenite before the Chelish Civil War, just like the rest of Cheliax, and is now under the Asmodean religious regime with some dissenters, again, just like the rest of Cheliax. Ravounel is said to be free-spirited and rebellious, but Pezzack is also chronically rebellious and much of the east and south rose in support of the Glorious Reclamation, and no one supposes that they are culturally distinct from Cheliax. In any event, unrest primarily has political, rather than cultural, explanations.
|
|
i don't think that hell's rebels is that. i think it's a hopeful revolution. good people (the PCs) are in charge. they make sure that the ship is steered right.
* * *
it's fantasy. have fun. have your glorious revolution. without the horrifying aftermath.
What's the point of having a revolution if its makers can't criticize its development every step of the way?
When this came up in our Hell's Rebel's game, the observation was made that Ravounel is not particularly culturally ChellishWhere does this notion come from? Ravounel has been a subject of Cheliax since the Even-Tongued Conquest, and Taldor before that. Its inhabitants speak the Taldane language, name their children in the Chelaxian style, and use Chelaxian terms like "dottari." The predominant human ethnicity in Cheliax is Chelaxian. Its high culture is Chelish, with an emphasis on the opera. It was Arodenite before the Chelish Civil War, just like the rest of Cheliax, and is now under the Asmodean religious regime with some dissenters, again, just like the rest of Cheliax. Ravounel is said to be free-spirited and rebellious, but Pezzack is also chronically rebellious and much of the east and south rose in support of the Glorious Reclamation, and no one supposes that they are culturally distinct from Cheliax. In any event, unrest primarily has political, rather than cultural, explanations.
agreed.
Ravounel is Chelish. Full stop.
But Cheliax is a big place and there's local differences.
Ravounel is Chelish, but it's not Egorian or Westcrown, which are different from each other as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Plains: What problems would ranchers in the Delronge family horse-breeding business have?
They're migrant farmworkers working on a hacienda, so quite a lot. There are the obvious ones: low wages, dependence on a Delronge-owned general store for food and necessities, the resulting inescapable debt, and all the myriad inconveniences of living in an isolated shantytown.
There are others that are more specific to being a ranch hand on Melodia's estates. Golarion's horse-rustlers and predatory wildlife can be far more dangerous than anything a gaucho* would realistically encounter in our own world, so rates of death and injury would be notably higher. There's a LE Abadaran sect that operates in the shanty the way that the Salvation Army would act in early 20th century US Hobo Jungles. Most ominously, since the night of ashes the managers of the estate seem to be making a concerted effort to reduce the gauchos to complete debt peonage. Punitive fines are multiplying, prices are increasing, etc.
Sorry, i have more thoughts but busy, hopefully elaborate tomorrow
*I'm definitely picturing them as Chelish gauchos now and I suggest you do the same
The Nidalese were supposed to have been horsemen before Earthfall, and some of that tradition probably survives on the North Plains.
Zimm's suggestion from upthread would give their plight an even greater emotional/narrative weight. In all likelihood, Melodia's herds are descended from ones that her ancestors stole from theirs, along with the ground that they're standing on
|
|
*I'm definitely picturing them as Chelish gauchos now and I suggest you do the same
Headcanon almost accepted, but there's a racial strain in the construction of the gaucho, which was moreover developed in a colonial context. Whatever else they are, the people of Ravounel are metropolitan.
I'd look to the butteri of Tuscany or the vaqueros/vaqueiros of Spain and Portugal for inspiration. That also suggests, as you mention, looking to the early modern Spanish haciendas (which grew up in Spain and were exported to the New World) for inspiration as to what the Delronge estate looks like.
there's a racial strain in the construction of the gaucho
Oh god you're right, I totally forgot about that. I'm definitely not firing on all cylinders today
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh no, please, I insist. I've gone on elsewhere about how the terms of the treaty establish a basically servile relationship, and would like to hear your thoughts.
Don't get me started about the silliness of the treaty negotiations in Book 6.
Okay. You asked for it :)
Before I start, I would like to say that while the following seems highly critical of the AP, I am running a group through it (near the end of Book 2) and we're having a great time. The AP is different than most other adventures in my experience - because it's so ambitious in what it tries to stretch the game system to do. How many other AP's encourage threads to discuss comparisons of the adventure to various era's of the French Revolution? But there are some incongruent parts. The treaty negotiations would be an example.
First challenge: The Oakrib Inn is not a valid location for the negotiations. I assume here the Ravens have destroyed the keep at Menador Gap with the Anvil of Unmaking (as is strongly encouraged by the AP.) Book 3 includes this description: "...not only would the keep be destroyed in a massive landslide, but the gap would be erased in a cascade of rock and stone closing the path to land bound traffic for years - perhaps even decades - before the damage could be repaired." DoD, p. 28. How long in Golarion time separates the fall of the keep and the beginning of negotiations (basically pre-Dance until post-Contract)? Two months? More? With traffic on the road from Cheliax totally gone (and no matter what happens during the negotiation its not coming back for a long long time, if ever) - the Inn is out of business. If the Innkeeper is still there when the time for negotiations comes, he will be in no mood to host the people that destroyed his livelihood regardless of his political leanings. Let alone have the staff, etc. to handle the proceedings.
More compliments - the Treaty set piece is a well constructed high-level encounter set with notable things to accomplish with role-playing and social skills. The NPC's are interesting, diverse and have nuanced plans and reactions. And the combat sections are also interesting. But when looked at in its context, it has some... flaws.
First while I appreciate the effort to use the in-game social skills to create a "negotiation" - it's a rather poor model of negotiation with each topic addressed in isolation where true negotiations would involve give in one dimension and take in another. The Ravens are not really given a chance to choose which items are of more or less interest to them. Further the Ravens address each topic through simple force of will or personality. Which high level characters that have gone through 5 AP books of social encounters will not struggle with. And the DC/level of the challenges doesn't make Nereza look like the Empire's top negotiator rather an average or mediocre one.
But (and this is probably the most serious issue) it's not clear why the Ravens/Ravounel are negotiating on these topics at all let alone be starting from a weak position. If the pc's don't make multiple social skill checks, Ravounel ends up on the bad end of the deal - three failures is the same as not participating at all. This makes it seem like Cheliax holds the upper hand when in fact the opposite is true. Abrogail II has almost no ability to make her wishes come true. Without the threat of military aggression, all her posturing is just that, empty bluster. And the Ravens know that.
Pause for assumptions. The Cheliax Covenant is under documented (to be generous) but one item seems clear - it binds Asmodeus and Hell to support House Thrune. And it's that support that sustains Thrune's rule. Without it, other Houses would almost certainly pursue civil war and given the one item everyone else can agree on (House Thrune needs to go away) Thrune would be finished. Abrogail knows this. And she knows something else - as Odexidie suggests and Mephistopheles confirms at the end - Asmodeus exploited/manipulated this situation. For him it was a win/win - either Barzillai Thrune becomes a proto-god over Cheliax (and subservient to Asmodeus) or Abrogail gets a wake-up call. She needs Asmodeus way more than he needs her.
House Thrune doesn't have a lot of options here. They can't invade, they can't hire mercenaries to invade (including tricking/bribing/cajoing Nidal to do so because how would that be different than using their own troops, they can't blockade Kintargo (why not? Because a Ravounel flagged vessel is Ravounel territory - attacking a Ravounel ship is just like attacking Ravounel.) Maybe they could get away with some assassination but even that's dicey. If it turns out to be a government official, that might be an act of war. A deal with Asmodeus isn't like a deal between us humans - if one of us doesn't meet our obligations to another, we can choose to keep living under the agreement, let bygones be bygones. But Asmodeus can't do that. Ever. He can never let it be said that he sometimes lets people out of his deals without facing the full consequences of their agreements.
So Thrune's only option if she wants some of these things is to use some sugar. Make reasonable and valuable trade offers. But the mechanic in the AP doesn't suggest that at all. And given everything Barzillai has done and House Thrune has done over time, why shouldn't the Ravens and Ravounel give Abrogail the finger? What are the consequences in the AP? The hauntings in Kintargo get more powerful. Except the pc's have absolutely no way to know that. And even if they did, that probably would entice them not discourage them - those challenges are the exact situation they are built to deal with as opposed to economic trade deals with Evil Empires.
Lastly, the items Cheliax pursues are odd.
- Menador gap is years away from re-opening and Ravounel should have no interest at all in it re-opening.
- Ravounel is years away from being of any value in a military alliance. And the Nidal thing is an empty bluff. Further Cheliax can't protect Ravounel - to do so would require a Lord Mayor to invite them in and then they would never leave.
- A non-aggression pact seems very similar to alliance.
And some items that absolutely should be on Abrogail's list are not:
- assurances Cheliax flagged merchants can dock at Ravounel ports. Indeed a discussion of Vyre is entirely missing. One could argue the Queen of Delights should be present.
- demands to turn over the traitor Sargaeta and the Scourge of Belial, a Chelish warship that belongs to Thrune
- she does not want Ravounel to become a haven for every aggrieved, would-be rebel including whatever might survive from the Glorious Reformation or that miserable scum from Pezzack.
- and she does not want details of the Kintargo Contract to be come widely known. Her enemies now have a horrible weapon to use against her. Get her into breach of the Kintargo Contract and the Covenant ends. Shortly there after so does House Thrune.
So in short, the treaty negotiations take place in an Inn that should have been long abandoned, they place Cheliax ascendant when it should be Ravounel and they don't cover several topics that should be top of everyone's mind. And don't let the Raven introduce their own topics, demands for compensation, etc.
|
|
Oh no, please, I insist. I've gone on elsewhere about how the terms of the treaty establish a basically servile relationship, and would like to hear your thoughts.
Don't get me started about the silliness of the treaty negotiations in Book 6.Okay. You asked for it :)
Before I start, I would like to say that while the following seems highly critical of the AP, I am running a group through it (near the end of Book 2) and we're having a great time. The AP is different than most other adventures in my experience - because it's so ambitious in what it tries to stretch the game system to do. How many other AP's encourage threads to discuss comparisons of the adventure to various era's of the French Revolution? But there are some incongruent parts. The treaty negotiations would be an example.
First challenge: The Oakrib Inn is not a valid location for the negotiations. I assume here the Ravens have destroyed the keep at Menador Gap with the Anvil of Unmaking (as is strongly encouraged by the AP.) Book 3 includes this description: "...not only would the keep be destroyed in a massive landslide, but the gap would be erased in a cascade of rock and stone closing the path to land bound traffic for years - perhaps even decades - before the damage could be repaired." DoD, p. 28. How long in Golarion time separates the fall of the keep and the beginning of negotiations (basically pre-Dance until post-Contract)? Two months? More? With traffic on the road from Cheliax totally gone (and no matter what happens during the negotiation its not coming back for a long long time, if ever) - the Inn is out of business. If the Innkeeper is still there when the time for negotiations comes, he will be in no mood to host the people that destroyed his livelihood regardless of his political leanings. Let alone have the staff, etc. to handle the proceedings.
More compliments - the Treaty set piece is a well constructed high-level encounter set with...
interesting...
The treaty negotiations would be an example.
I agree with a lot of this analysis, but I have a quibble. While the negotiator should be written to understand a lot of the drawbacks of her position and have options to sweeten the deal, I strongly doubt that Abrogail II is that understanding. While we know very little about her, court rumor is that she's a handful for her Pit Fiend general to advise. I would think of the negotiator as dealing with a boss that has highly unreasonable expectations for negotiations and that the limits are not only what she can get the Ravens to agree to but also what she can present to the Queen and still keep her life and her soul.
Ravounel isn't a self-sufficient country so they depend on trade from neighbouring countries. Nidal and Cheliax are their closest neighbours so it makes sense that the group should at least set up some deals with them. Cheliax isn't getting a lot out of it, really, as Ravounel mostly seems to offer luxury items, have no real army to speak of, and they can't really use Menador Gap for anything tactical if they wanted to.
I really like how the negotiations worked (I had my doubts but me and my group all enjoyed them). I'm glad they weren't complex. And I'm really glad they didn't take too long, especially since it was mostly one person being involved and the others there as support just in case it was a trap or something.
If it was a long, drawn out thing the non-social half of the group would've been really bored. But it gave the two social ones a great chance to shine with the other two still feeling a little involved.
The treaty negotiations would be an example.I agree with a lot of this analysis, but I have a quibble. While the negotiator should be written to understand a lot of the drawbacks of her position and have options to sweeten the deal, I strongly doubt that Abrogail II is that understanding. While we know very little about her, court rumor is that she's a handful for her Pit Fiend general to advise. I would think of the negotiator as dealing with a boss that has highly unreasonable expectations for negotiations and that the limits are not only what she can get the Ravens to agree to but also what she can present to the Queen and still keep her life and her soul.
I'm not sure that's even a quibble. My intention was to suggest the DC's in the negotiation appear to be the pc's overcoming Nereza and to the extent that is a challenge for them, is the extent to which they will be impressed (or not) with the imperial negotiator. I also assume the topics of the negotiation come from Abrogail II and the various possible outcomes (1-3NP's) represent the pre-arranged leeway the Queen has given Nereza. Which is another missing detail in the encounter - what if the pc's suggest some option outside the realm of the NP scores? Nereza has ready available methods to get relatively quick guidance/alignment from Egorian but the idea of engaging the Queen in new avenues of discussion isn't even mentioned. Which as I type it, may be from my flawed memory...