This is a request for help from someone too sick to read or do much himself.
Hrn.
AC 60
+20 BAB +13 ability +5 enhancement + 2 greater focus; ???
d20+40 caaaaaaaaaaan hit that AC on a natural 20... but it could do that anyway. Hrmmmm.
In know there are other bonuses in non-epic 3.5 games, and I’m probably forgetting something basic and obvious, but I’m curious if anyone can list them “readily enough.” Like, not obscure - a fourth-man PH/DMG1 party of 20th level could have access to it without special crafting - sort of thing.
I mean, dude’s already gotta get a hyper-focused... wait!
+20 BAB +13 ability +7 enhancement + 2 greater focus -> +42 (noice) so 18-20.
So crit-fishing with a +5 cold iron bane (chaotic outsider) holy falchion, I guess. Still seems like there should be more.
Anyone? I’m asking for a... friend.
For clarity, I’m looking for 3.5, not PF or 3e. Thanks!
(The above presumes a very basic half-orc fighter, by-the-by.)
Copy/pasted here from original thread when I remembered this place existed. Hoping for straightforward, obvious stuff from the Player’s Handbook and DMG. Thanks!
If anyone cares, this VERY DEFINITELY STRICTLY HYPETHRETICAL SCENARIO involves 597 hp, fast healing 10, a necessity for seeing in supernatural darkness (preferably overcoming displacement), “hahahah, no thanks” on saves (even higher against magic; no actual evasion/mettle, though casters are gonna have a rough time that way due to spell reflection and dedicated counter-spell specialists), and +50/+45/+40/+35 (2d8+18/17–20 plus 1d6 acid plus 1 vile [plus 1d10 acid on a critical hit]), or +43/+38/+33/+28 (2d8+32/17–20 plus 1d6 acid plus 1 vile [plus 1d10 acid on a critical hit]).
So not striiiiiiiictly necessary to survive that, but bonus points if you can!
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Ye gads. I can't even wrap my brain around that!
Basically:
- need to hit AC 60 reliably enough to overcome 10 fast healing (the weapon takes care of any DR) for 597 hp points
- hopefully kiiiiiiiiiiiinda surviving long enough to do it {average of 8d8+128+4d6+4; AC of 38, 43, 45, 48, 50, 53, 55, and 60 can reduce that damage in various increments} (
- which I forgot to mention the STRICTLY HYPOTHETICAL BADDY has, most "other defenses" seem to kind of evaporate; so AC it is...)
- non-epic, basic Player's Handbook/DMG stuff broadly available without any "unique" crafting items (though custom items of the sort of weapon necessary or armors you would make for this sort of specialized mission are, of course, acceptable; it's not like they're going to have to fish for rando-roll of that falchion...)
Bards! Of course! That's, what, a +4 morale bonus? Presuming the thing survives long enough, of course!
+20 BAB +13 ability +7 enhancement + 2 greater focus + 4 morale -> +46 or 14-20. It's getting bettah!
Heeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyy - inspire greatness!
Can you get benefits from both inspire competence (morale bonus) and inspire greatness (competence bonus) at the same time?! If so, we could literally rock the guy to death!
That's a +4 and a +2...
+20 BAB +13 ability +7 enhancement + 2 greater focus + 4 morale + 2 competence -> +48 or 12-20. If we can
Let's see...
Of (+10) total...
+5 for standard
+2 holy
+1 bane
+1 bane = +9/10!
... that's actually possible!
Oh! And haste!
If it all stacks, that's:
+20 BAB +13 ability +9 enhancement + 2 greater focus + 4 morale + 2 competence +1 haste -> +51 or 9-20. HOLY COW~! If we can get an Aid Another, we can hop up the attack by +2 (total +53), and drop the d20 down to 7-20! All it takes is 1 or 2 bards and a flanking buddy... (and a dimensional anchor and true seeing, naturally). Nice!
Any more?
Yaaaasssssssssssssssss...
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Get archivist bard to add insight to attack rolls with their naturalist performance.
Greater Heroism.
Inspire courage adds to attack rolls, competence and greatness do not.
Prayer for +1 luck bonus to attack rolls.
Let's look at damage for a minute.
2d4 falchion +13 strength +6d8 bane, bane, and holy +9 enhancement and +4 morale = 26+6d8+2d4 ~> 26+28+5 = 59/attack (on average). That definitely overcomes the fast healing 10, but would take a full minute+ at one attack per round... and we're only looking at one "probable" attack per round (below 10; the dice rolls would need to be 7/15/17/nat-20 to hit on a full attack) - two with haste, actually!
So that's about 118+/round. Cool.
That means we can hypothetically win in six rounds!
Now for the tricky part... AC.
Let's presuppose our dude tanked his Dex (3), but put that sweet-sweet +5 inherent and +6 enhancement into it, netting him a shiny 14 dex by this point . Now, that +2 to AC is nice and all, but really isn't doing much for him - there aren't any armors that really optimize it. So full plate it is! Actually, one supposes we could make it mithril, kind of optimize it... heck, if we're really going all-out, we could say he tanked his Dex slightly less to 5, push the final Dex up to 16, and that let's us use our +5 acid resistance greater fortification mithril full plate to its fullest advantage. Our AC in that case would be 10 base +8 armor +5 enhancement +3 dexterity for... 26. Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh tha'sna good.
So amulet of nAC +5 (AC 31), ring of protection +5 (AC 36), +5 mithiril/darkwood tower shield (AC 45; hey, we hit three full thresholds of actually mattering!), dusty rose ioun stone (AC 46), Aid Another (AC 48; threshold four!), and...? Anything else?
{38, 43, 45, 48, 50, 53, 55, and 60...}
Now, looking at this, that's +43/+38/+33/+28 (2d8+32/17–20 plus 1d6 acid plus 1 vile [plus 1d10 acid on a critical hit]) - that means that at AC 48, and with acid resistance I'd almost entirely invalidate one attack (the +28 aside from crits), and make that +33 not terribly reliable (requiring a 15 on a d20 roll to connect).
With a d20 roll of 5 and one of 10, that leaves a solid 4d8+66 damage per round, ~> 18+66 = 84 damage on average per round (with an extra 42 average ~> 126 on a successful 15 or higher for that third attack).
Looking at +50/+45/+40/+35 (2d8+18/17–20 plus 1d6 acid plus 1 vile [plus 1d10 acid on a critical hit]) instead, we've got a moderately reliable chance for all of them except the last (and that's still just a 13).
So 6d8+54 ~> 27+54 = 81/round with a decent chance to add ~27 ~> 108/round. That still makes the lower attack/higher hit more "worthwhile," though.
Now let's look at our hp.
Let's presume we hopped it up, somehow (maybe we're just the dumbest and least charismatic half-orc at 3/3) to 18 + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 29. That a +9 which, at 20th level, provides 180 hit points. d10 or 5.5 hp/level (+4.5 for max at 1st level) ~> 110 hit points, 114 with our starting max. That's 290 hit points. Oh, my. Our super-dude half-orc will be taken down in just 4 rounds (84*3 = 240+12 = 252; +84 = donzooooooooo).
Hrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Getting 84 healing in that time really won't help, not even 168 healing, as the target will likely go first in initiative. That means we need three more rounds of survival, and that's really not very possible from what I've got in my head.
I mean, at present, there's a party of a super-buffed 20th level half-orc fighter, two bards rockin' hard, and a cleric of some sort for magic circle and protection from spells and healing. Hmmmm...
(And this is never-minding the whole slew of, like, 15 other demons that are rampaging around. Er, I mean, in this STRICTLY HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.)
Get archivist bard to add insight to attack rolls with their naturalist performance.
Greater Heroism.
Inspire courage adds to attack rolls, competence and greatness do not.
Prayer for +1 luck bonus to attack rolls.
Does greater heroism stack? Or are you suggesting something else?
That said, the archivist bard runs afoul of the "3.5, not PF" rule from the OP. I do feel certain the old 3.5 version of inspire greatness gave you two temporary "competence hit dice" which came with "competence attack bonus" with them.
The prayer is an excellent thingy, though.
Tactical Acumen is, once again, PF instead of 3.5... but thank you for all the help!
Oh! Greater heroism wouldn't stack, but it would help - use greater heroism + inspire competence to get the same effect from the one bard!
That would leave a wizard... hrm-hrm...
Pale green ioun stone for at least a +1 competence to attack if we can't get a bard...
Quick question: how does freedom of movement interact with grease?
Pale green ioun stone for at least a +1 competence to attack if we can't get a bard...
Inspire Greatness does, in fact, grant +2 competence to attack (EDIT: at least in 3.5 edition!).
You know I'm not exactly the right person for this since I'll just spew PF, right?
I don't really know what's in 3.5.
Pssssst. That's why it's here:
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Gaming / D&D / 3.5/d20/OGL
;D
Blessing of fervor for +2 on attack rolls.
Again, PF. Thanks, though! Your suggestion of a bard, like, at all helped break through my fever-haze from yesterday. Now that today I'm slightly less feverish, I might have better ideas. Or sleep all day. We shall see!
Okay, though, two heal spells should be able to keep the fighter going long enough (at 150 a pop)... but that now leaves the ~15 or so other demons.
A wizard with dimensional anchor (or four; touch AC is still stupid-high and SR is a thing, but great SR penetration should help mitigate the latter, and elf-wizard with hopped up Dex v. touch AC and a true strike or seven shooooouuuuuuuuld be able to make it trivially). The wizard using its own dispel magic or greater dispel magic should actually be able to dispel up to five and three of them, leaving the succubi and marilith. The succubi, it must be said, will be little more than attack-roll-sponges: one per succubi. That's it. The marilith could be challenging by way of that 216 hit points and teleport. The SR should be trivial ("anything other than a 1") so that takes care of teleport, while the hit points will be gone in three rounds... but that is three rounds that have to be used on it. That three additional heal spells that need to be used to ablate that kind of damage (dealt either directly to the fighter, or to whoever else absorbs that damage; the fighter really doesn't have to worry about the marilith's AC {29} or attack {+25}, so that damage is only if she successfully crit-fishes against him... or turns on someone else; no, it's mainly that 84-126 damage per round you've gotta worry about).
Now... the counter-spell issue (via greater dispel magic). That is definitely a bit trickier. And keeping the non-fighters alive during this time is a big deal, too - with 74+(20*con mod) for the bard, 84+(20*con mod) for the cleric, and 54+(20*con mod) for the wizard, that's a one-round-take-down for all of them. You could ablate the wizard's fragility (to some extent) by prestiging into eldritch knight, but that drop of 2 CLs is gonna be painful, even with the +35-25=+10 extra hit points... which aren't enough to save you anyway. Hrm... going with Lore Master isn't really that better than the base class, per se, but could give you dodge trick (+1 AC), if nothing else.
There is no similar "core" option for the bard (dragon disciple is great for this, but... it prevents you from aaaaaaaaactually, "inspire greatness" comes online at 9th level, meaning you could take 10 levels of DD, netting +65-45 = +20 hit points (94+(20*con mod), but also increases the con-mod by +4, so adds at least +40 hit points, too...
Speeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaking of multiclassing, tho...
Barbarian.
So, greater weapon focus requires 8th level, so if we stop there and go barbarian, we can net greater rage eleven levels later, which nabs us +6 to Str and Con, netting +3 to attack and damage, and +60 hit points (350 hit points; only while raging, of course, but, at 9+3+3=15 rounds is more than enough to win or die horribly).
Anyway that's + 20 BAB + 13+3 ability + 9 enhancement + 2 greater focus + 4 morale + 2 competence + 1 haste + 2 Aid Another +1 luck -> +57 or 3-20.
Niiiiiiiice!
So, at +57/+57/+52/+47/+42, you're actually looking really good. You'll be hitting three times in a round, on average, instead of two, and dealing 62/attack instead of 59/attack that will shift things considerably...
At 186 per round (or 248 on a third attack roll of 13 or higher), you're going to chew through those 597 hit points in four rounds - shaving off two whole rounds!
With the new, higher hit points, that's five rounds before death, leading to a hypothetical win for the good guys! Of course, nixing the cleric, the bard, or the wizard along the way will hurt... but the wizard can help ablate all of that with false life (+10 temporary hit points minimum -> 64+(20*con mod) for the wizard) and can evade, like, everything by becoming an incorporeal shadow (50% miss chance ftw!).
The cleric and wizard can actually get almost-similar ACs to the half-orc... the cleric wearing plate armor (and probably ending up with an identical AC, actually, with Dex boosts), and the wizard having less (due to no actual armor or shields) but not still having some (via mage armor and shield spell; that's a -13-9+4+4 = -14, plus any higher Dex they might have for being a natural savant at dexterity plus boosts; so... 48-14 = 34 - still evaporated in a round, but fairly okay against, say, a marilith, and 35 with dodge and 36 with dodge trick). A bard would lose 2 from dropping from tower shields to heavy mithril shield, and 2 from using <type of> armor (+5 enhance +1 armor +8 dex for padded; adjust as appropriate for dexterity ~> +14; v. +5 enhance +8 armor +3 dex ~> +16), putting him at 46, or 47 with dodge.
{38, 43, 45, 48, 50, 53, 55, and 60...}
Actually, speaking of... everyone should take the Dodge feat. That's a free +1 to AC v. the big bad. Doesn't actually push anyone to a new threshold, but it's useful nonetheless. That said, adding a dusty rose ioun stone does push the bard up a threshold. Unfortunately, I just realized that rage has the downside of pushing AC down, and thus puts our half-orc down a threshold meaning another attack would hit him each round... hrm...
The bard's greatness adds +11+(2*con mod) hit points to the half-orc.
Greater rage applies a -2 to AC, pushing our 48 down to 46... 47 if we add back in dodge, but that's still not enough to nab that lovely and missing extra point to put us back at the 48 threshold.
So, recalculating... with a +43/+38/+33/+28 (2d8+32/17–20 plus 1d6 acid plus 1 vile [plus 1d10 acid on a critical hit]) - that means that at AC 47, and acid resistance, we'd be almost invalidating one attack (still the +28; 19-20 only), but that +33 while not super-reliable (requiring a 14 on a d20 roll to connect) is more reliable than it was (by +1!). Seemingly, though, we're still basically okay... a 14 is not a 10 on a d20, after all, and is only +1 more likely.
That moooooostly leaves our math intact: a d20 roll of 4 and one of 9, that leaves a solid 4d8+66 damage per round, ~> 18+66 = 84 damage on average per round (with an extra 42 average ~> 126 on a successful 14 or higher for that third attack).
361 hit points on our half-orc means that it'll take five rounds to drop him... that's more than we actually need.
Now, of course, this is ignoring crits and the randomness of actual battle, but it's nice to know that, statistically, it's not only possible, it's probable that the good guys can survive juuuuust long enough to make things at least really dicey for the bad guy. (As an aside, a crit-fishing shadow wizard can be busy trying to drain strength and trusting in that miss chance and any other AC boosts he can eek out that I'm not thinking of. Still, it's most dangerous for him. Might almost certainly would be better if he just stuck to the back and relied on ranged debuffs (like dimensional anchor) instead.
I’m definitely not thinking of weaponizing this, that’s for sure - I found these accusations outrageous! Outrageous, I say! It’s not even in the PH//DMG! Outrageous!
Why, I’d have to break my own rules and create a specialized magic device!
Then trap the soul on an unconscious target!
And place the gem in said specialized device that activates the creation of new lantern archons!
And perish the thought of any accusations of me using this on the resultant corpses! Don’t you dare think such a thing!
As a clearly and most extremely definitely urelated aside, does anyone know if you can fit more than one target into a gem with trap the soul? Anyone? Beuller? Anyone?
I’m definitely not thinking of weaponizing this, that’s for sure - I found these accusations outrageous! Outrageous, I say! It’s not even in the PH//DMG! Outrageous!
Why, I’d have to break my own rules and create a specialized magic device!
Then trap the soul on an unconscious target!
And place the gem in said specialized device that activates the creation of new lantern archons!
And perish the thought of any accusations of me using this on the resultant corpses! Don’t you dare think such a thing!
As a clearly and most extremely definitely urelated aside, does anyone know if you can fit more than one target into a gem with trap the soul? Anyone? Beuller? Anyone?
All I’m saying, if anything, is that 35/1.5 ~> 23.67 LG archons and 1 NG deathless out of a defeated demon lord is a pretty good deal...
Similarly, ~1.5 per point of con per nearby defeated demon plus 1 deathless per defeated demon...
And if they’re somehow native to/stuck in the Abyss, well there’s a perfect place they can go to be incredibly helpful...
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If there's a twentieth level wizard in the party, you might want to consider greater invisibility and mind blank (to disable true seeing) for, well, for everyone. They might live a bit longer that way.
What's the scenario? I might be able to help more with more to go off of.
Ah! Aaaaahhhhhh! Mindblank! Of course! I was a fool! That makes so much more daggum sense! That, incidentally, both drives up attack and drives down AC.
The short form of the scenario is what I posted above.
In specific it’s a demon lord with six each Lammas, súcubi, and mariliths, and the ability to summon five glabrezu and three balors.
My curiosity was whether or not a 20th level party could beat such a monster - especially since its saves were high enough to pass on a roll of seven at worst in my first head scenario, which meant a few quick assassination-like SoS/SoD effects were not likely to be successful (though several hundred wizards using disintegrate* simultaneously remains a valid tactic... simulacrum I’m looking at you!) which meant searching for alternatives.
By distributing the load across four points instead of pinning it on a single assassin, I help make it more likely to succeed.
Also, there may or may not be a high-level party of non-epic “core” 3.X’ers rolled up to take on a demon lord or four (replacing them and taking a two steps toward chaos and evil - one each, or two if the the character is already one or the other: a real danger for a barbarian, which is why I originally had it be a fighter) using similar methodology. So this is a simultaneously practical and hypothetical/proof-of-concept .
Basically, there is a specific scenario, but there are three other “similar” scenarios as well, so I’m looking for broad/easy access “kill the bad guys” builds that don’t entirely invalidate other concepts with similar characters, allowing for some degree of customization.
*
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I don’t see anything that’d counter casting a few maximized time stops (with a greater maximize rod) back to back to flood the field with gated outsiders and high-end summons (they can’t counterspell the first time stop unless they have one of their own or a tenth level transmutation), or even just with metamagic upped delayed blast fireballs (quickened with a rod!); nothing short of fire immunity or evasion can possibly survive the sheer quantity of d6s a twentieth level wizard can pump out if you give them 4+ time stops to do it in.
I don’t think it’d take a twentieth level party to win. Just a twentieth level wizard.
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I don’t see anything that’d counter casting a few maximized time stops (with a greater maximize rod) back to back to flood the field with gated outsiders and high-end summons (they can’t counterspell the first time stop unless they have one of their own or a tenth level transmutation), or even just with metamagic upped delayed blast fireballs (quickened with a rod!); nothing short of fire immunity or evasion can possibly survive the sheer quantity of d6s a twentieth level wizard can pump out if you give them 4+ time stops to do it in.
I don’t think it’d take a twentieth level party to win. Just a twentieth level wizard.
I am absolutely on board with the idea that a well-prepared wizard can do anything. Starting at eleventh level. (Or eighth if you have WBL, and solid magic item purchases.)
What’s more, “I have more <stuff> than you.” is aaaaaaaaaaalways the wizard’s “I win.” button, whether by infinite loops (usually simulacrum, but also gate-spamming, astral projection, and still more) or other things - which is why I acknowledged spamming disintigrate early on - but there are several issues with this.
First, fire immunity is real. And a lot of d6s are nice, but halve them all anyway from saves as noted above (8*20d6 is fantastic - that’s about 8*90 or 720 damage - but barring really weird rolling it’s going to be halved, making it 360 on average; still exceptionally respectable, but not consistent enough, and even barring immunity, resistances are everywhere). It’s worth remembering to clear the field of many of the lesser critters, though.
More to the actual point summons is always solid, but there are wards in place that prevent that exact thing (so, say, rival demon lords can’t flood the field with their own summon/conjured folks). Summons could be held outside the city, but then you’re going to have to summon enough to basically tank a city with several wizards who do the conjure thing to gather enough forces to prevent other wizards from doing exactly that. Beyond simple hordes, though, a number of unspecified, but specific high level effects are warned against for this exact reason. Earlier on in this thread, I mentioned the idea of a wizard solo’ing because I went into it under the presumption that he could. He couldn’t, mostly because environmental hazards would do him in and most of his defenses were rendered moot (though mind blank certainly helps). And while spamming infinite loops could still work, that is the only real option, and not one I wanted to deal with for the same reason most tables don’t: escalation.
No infinite loops, conjured masses already covered, and unspecified (but specific) contingencies for magic meant I needed to rely on a smaller force. While the wizard couldn’t scary-and-fry (because of things like private sanctum), he could vape-and-sneak the party (gaseous form+invisibility; they didn’t need a wizard for this, so I was prepared to do without), or scout and teleport there and back. The problem is taking “enough” with him, and the folks he’s dealing with are both intelligent and wealthy - one too many pops and he’ll find himself in a trap.
Can a wizard solo it? Yes. Always.
Can a wizard solo it without resorting to tactics that would cause minor riots? ... eh.
And, of course, one of the problems is that while I have rather followed up one line of reasoning on this, or one specific encounter, I’m looking for something that can do this four times in four different scenarios. The listed one was specifically because it’s the first - I was vague, because I wanted general principles to be able to do it again.
But, much more to the point, am trying to ensure that a table of multiple build options can succeed. While a few key elements - most notably consistent protective gear/boosts and that weapon, the weapon itself can vary, the gear is close to what you’d want anyway, and with functioning invisibility again, the barbarian levels aren’t nearly as necessary - nice, but not needed; in fact, a straight up barbarian, fighter, or paladin could pull this off - a ranger would have a harder time of it, not only due to lighter armor, but also lower hit point points, though if focused on evil outsiders from the start, they’d hit like a truck, and they can actually use Stealth, so... still solid. While I would want it, the DD levels are asically just for more hit points, and again are vastly less necessary with mind blank on. The point is, it doesn’t have to be a specific class or set of classes as much - now that we’re down to dealing enough damage to outpace the incoming damage, and hitting on anything but a one, we are basically set, though I’d still take other bonuses that I may have missed! It would be helpful, especially for dealing with later demon lords.
All that said, my original goal here wasn’t even quite so broad: I was okay with finding a “9th level X, 6th level Y, and another with 20 levels of full BAB” solution, and we’ve actually (by sticking mostly to lower-to-mid-level effects) accomplished a wider versatility than that. So long as you are well-rounded, the only thing that need not apply is rogues, which, you know. You know.
Oh, good. Autocorrect. I mean, my post isn't entirely incomprehensible, because I thiiiiiiiiiiiiiink context clears up most things, but...
Beyond simple hordes, though, a number of unspecified, but specific high level effects are warded against for this exact reason.
While the wizard couldn’t scry-and-fry (because of things like private sanctum), he could vape-and-sneak the party (gaseous form+invisibility; they didn’t need a wizard for this, so I was prepared to do without), or scout and teleport there and back.
you’re going to have to summon enough to basically tank a city
Anyway! Errata?! ... or whatever.
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Well all you need is a level headed GM who tells the player that this character is bull and he can't have that because duh, the GM is always right! Whatever strange combination of silly rules she or he has come up with, well that's going down the drain. Seriously, that's how Gary did it 1978, that's how we're doing it and no newfangled 90s anime and computers kids will ruin that on my watch.
I'm actually shocked that nobody has mention this ELEMENTARY SOLUTION to EVERY PROBLEM before. Sheesh!
S’more math reeeeeeeeeel quick.
+ 20 BAB + 13+3 ability + 9 enhancement + 2 greater focus + 4 morale + 2 competence + 1 haste + 2 Aid Another +1 luck + 2 invisibility -> +59 or 1-20.
+ 16 BAB + 21 ability + 5 enhancement + 1 focus + 4 morale + 1 haste + 2 Aid Another + 1 luck + 2 invisibility -> +53 or 7-20. At + 16 ability instead, that +49 or 12-20.
Hm. Impressive. Even an upgraded MotH would need to hesitate before this.
42 (+16)
53 (+21)
Alright, usual caveat of "You're at 20th level, Anything can (and should have already) happen".
Furthermore, assuming that this is asking for a single character, PHB/DMG only.
Compounded by the unspoken request to avoid Stupid Exploits or loopholes that any sane GM would veto (Simulacrum, Polymorph Any Object, etc).
As this is 3.5e, I'd start by ditching Fighter and going with Cleric:
Specifically, Cleric 14/Loremaster 3/Horizon Walker 1/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 2
You have access to True Seeing, which will get around displacement/darkness etc.
Choosing Luck Domain opens up Moment of Prescience, and gives you a free reroll.
Feats:
Endurance
Metamagic or item creation feat 1
Metamagic or item creation feat 2
Metamagic or item creation feat 3
Skill Focus (Knowledge whatever)
Weapon Focus (weapon of choice)Spells in effect:
Divine Power
Righteous Might
Aid
Divine Favour
Heroism, Greater (from a scroll)
Blink (from a scroll)
Haste (from a scroll)BAB +20
Ability +16 (18 + 2 racial + 5 advancement + 6 enhancement {free} + 5 inherent +4 size +2 Dragon Disciple [42])
Enhancement +9 (+5 plus Double Bane - you can get this for only 50000gp by casting Greater Magic Weapon)
Size -1
Luck +3
Morale +4 (Heroism)
Insight +1 (Horizon Walker)
Competence +1 (Pale Green ioun stone)
Weapon Focus +1
Untyped +1 (Loremaster Secret)
Blink +2
Haste +1
High Ground +1For a total of +59. Your first attack hits on a 1.
Moment of Prescience (Luck Domain) adds a +20 insight bonus (+24 with Strand of Prayer Beads) for a single attack.
I haven't actually crunched the numbers on the cost of the items required for this, but it doesn't seem unreasonable.
What is surprising is that this character actually seems viable to play from levels 1-20, without really appearing overpowered. There might be an XP penalty for multiclassing for some levels.
Your base attack is actually closer to +13 than +20 (I don’t remember horizon walker BAB in 3.5 but I didn’t think it was full, though I can easily be wrong; either way I’m presuming it is for this off-the-napkin calculation), so that’s a difference of +7 to attack. That makes it an 8 instead of a 1; otherwise it looks fairly solid. Where is the high ground coming from?
there are ways...
So a multiclassed wizard cleric is probably the answer, or just a wizard if we're doing 3.5.
Some spells can't be reflected and there is no save. Touch spells mostly. Harm(Heal-reverse) is a classic. Some GMs may rule that a targeted or area Dispel Magic won't reveal invisibility, and there's Disjunction(more powerful in 3.5). Also, Spell Reflection can turn a harmless 1st level spell into a ricocheting Spell Reflection neutraliser.
Wizards are excellent at effecting the environment and there's no save for that. Buffing attackers. Hiding in other bodies so the original can't be killed... etc etc. Spells also ignore AC and there are many ways to lower saves. SR can be an issue, again environmental attacks that immobilize rather than directly do damage might be key.
Change the environment to underwater (Raise Water or the old Wall of Water spell) so long as the mage is water-attuned. Dying by suffocation is just embarrassing.
Gaseous Form potion if ingested requires a std action to dismiss which can't happen until the next round, so that's 1 round of stymied actions with way higher AC and no attacks or magic...
Lastly there's the GM's bag of dasterdly tricks; cursed items. Necklace of strangulation, helm of opposite alignment, scarab of death, giving your friend a cursed +2 beserking sword (not as good as his vorpal sword or natural attacks, ohh well...). Delivering the "gifts" is more the problem and sleight of hand is usually the solution.
You are mentioning several solutions that wizards can’t do (using Harm, for instance) at least not in the PHB/DMG. At least not that I’m aware of! I’m not sure what spell reflection you’re suggesting. You mean SR? I wasn’t really worried about that. If they’d are buffing attackers, that’s going to mean that the wizard isn’t soloing this (which seems your implication, but I’m uncertain), while if they have a cursed item, you seem to be building toward an arcane trickster? As for friends (your second post), this were already covered: folk can’t call/summon others into the place, and bringing people in requires going through a city of similarly-powered individuals to your conjures. Cursed items are solid, though, if you can get them.
If you have more specific concepts from the PHB and DMG I’m open to them - they need to be specific but preferably generic without presuming loops, though.
Your base attack is actually closer to +13 than +20 (I don’t remember horizon walker BAB in 3.5 but I didn’t...
Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/levelCalling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.
One of the fun facts about Divine Power. It doesn't matter if you tank your BAB.
High ground can come from anything from Air Walk, to some form of flight, to riding on a mule.
Ah! Thanks! Excellent!
1) I was totally conflating that with divine favor (my bad)
2) That is... shockingly strictly better in every single way than transformation, and it even ignores caster level for character level (which transformation does as well, at least in 3.5)
3) As for the "high ground" bonus, it is definitely true that you can, hypothetically, get "higher" than the bad guys, but... they can all fly in this particular instance, so that doesn't really work out, here, but I really do appreciate the inclusion as a concept!
4) Finally able to look things up, I see that the +2 bonus from blink is the same as invisibility... that means it's basically useless against someone who can see invisibility; also, blink relies on the ethereal, and I don't believe the ethereal functions for "outer" planes like the Abyss (again: I'm willing to accept corrections), making it lose what potency it has... but it's still an excellent "general purpose" inclusion.
Stuff to ponder. Thanks!
there are ways... {and I outline several}You are mentioning several solutions that wizards can’t do (using Harm, for instance) at least not in the PHB/DMG. At least not that I’m aware of! I’m not sure what spell reflection you’re suggesting. You mean SR? I wasn’t really worried about that. If they’d are buffing attackers, that’s going to mean that the wizard isn’t soloing this (which seems your implication, but I’m uncertain), while if they have a cursed item, you seem to be building toward an arcane trickster? As for friends (your second post), this were...I did mention multiclassing, but with 3.5 it's not as easy. BUT Harm is accessible via a Samsaran wizard with mythic past life and the Witch spell list. There are a few other nice unique spells on that list. While a touch attack isn't tactically good, Reach metamagic changes all that ;-)
Spell Reflection/Spell Turning... Sure Casting helps vs Spell Resistance and make Spell Penetration kinda moot. Alchemical components can add +5 vs SR at a considerable cost.
Cursed Items carry whammys as do Tinctures(Pot & Poi){& Poisoner's Gloves}. The gloves also work for Gaseous Form potion(for 1 round). I'd never suggest Arcane Trickster or something like that. I would suggest summons, calls, other spells, leadership feat, and other class features/abilities that give you companions/henchmen, however Familiars past 7th level are a no go.
To test a published module I used a high level wizard, magic jar, a portable hole with a shambling mound, oblivax, large cold iron rocks, helm of opposite alignment change. The GM nixed my nilbog and lost about 5 bodies in a disintegrate field due to dice. ahh well... In an old Forgotten Realms game the Phaerimm had some interesting spells.
I noticed multiclassing, but the only real option to get heal/harm in 3.5 is sixth level spells, which mostly means cleric (or, I suppose, a favored soul)... or a mystic theurge. Which... nah, my dude. I love me some mystic theurges, but... nah.
The main problem with Samsarran and Witch is... both are PF-only. Neither are found in either the Player's Handbook, nor DMG, and neither actually came out for 3.5 (as the switch between 3.X and PF was made by Council of Thieves, and that was long before anything like Samsarran were fleshed out, so far as I'm aware - which was long before the witch class was a thing, too).
Reach metamagic is great, but, going only by the Core book, requires the Archmage PrC, which more-or-less defaults into "NOPE" for cleric-territory. You can get cleric spells by pushing up UMD, but a wizard tyyyyyyyyyyypically won't have the Cha to make it work - sorcerer would be better in that instance.
Cursed Items carry whammys as do Tinctures(Pot & Poi){& Poisoner's Gloves}. The gloves also work for Gaseous Form potion(for 1 round).
Which supplement? Do you have a link?
I'd never suggest Arcane Trickster or something like that.
Right. I wouldn't have thought so, but... it's unclear from your post, which is why I was trying to figure out what you meant.
I would suggest summons, calls, other spells, leadership feat, and other class features/abilities that give you companions/henchmen, however Familiars past 7th level are a no go.
Right. The problems with all of those fall into things like:
- you end up with creatures that are too weak to matter
- you end up using infinite loops (which, as I addressed, I have no personal problem with, but am looking to avoid for this scenario; otherwise, you might as well go all snow-cone and not worry about it)
- summons/calls are explicitly sealed, as is the scry-and-fry method (as there isn't anything that I'm aware of in 3.5 that lets your "scry" ability ignore deeper darkness (greater scrying has a very explicit list; "scry-and-fry" in this case also means, "summon and send")
- if you do your summons outside of the banned area, you, again, have a city full of demons that are mostly as-powerful-or-more than your summons, and as we're not presuming infinite loops, you're limited in how much you can bring to bear
To test a published module I used a high level wizard, magic jar, a portable hole with a shambling mound, oblivax, large cold iron rocks, helm of opposite alignment change. The GM nixed my nilbog and lost about 5 bodies in a disintegrate field due to dice. ahh well... In an old Forgotten Realms game the Phaerimm had some interesting spells.
That's the thing, though - neither nilbogs, memory moss are found in the Player's Handbook, DMG, or even the MM1.
The pharimm are great, but are very specific to a given setting (FR), limiting the "generic" options usable.
Magic jar is pretty cool, but for any of these scenarios is mostly signing a death warrant, as there isn't really a convenient way to prevent yourself from being exposed and dispelled... at least if you're not already using better options, like astral projection and mind blank.
I am curious about that module, though.
(Generally, my first test is to see if a wizard of appropriate level, given decent spell selection, can solo the thing. Usually, they can either solo it, or survive longer than most other attempts - or even survive long enough to flee and try again. Just in case it's not clear, I'm a big fan of mages. I don't always have all my knowledge ready, but I recognize the disparity. :D)
... exposed and dispelled...hmmm... if the target is simply going to dispel rather than attack, that could be a win for your minions who aren't attacked and can attempt to disrupt the casting of the dispel magic via damage making the concentration check impossible. Besides at this level a simple dispel isn't going to work with a cap at +10.
Okay, I’m still required to ask: which minions? I’ve noted several times that summoning doesn’t work, and though personal movement into the area does, you’re going to have to bring very, very large amounts over a very large area. There isn’t a way to do this in any sort of a timely manner within any non-infinite manner.
It’s worth noting that only ever said “dispelled” - not which ability was being used.
While I’m familiar with using Shambling Mounds and charging them, you’re going to have to walk me through how you’re expecting to use them.
While I’d certainly allow an attempted deception, does something become invisible when you take it? Either way, quite a big spot bonus to overcome, invisibility or no. Also, I’m not certain cursed items really work that way: some do (sneezing and choking) but I feel like most require an attempt to use them before they “activate” - making it less useful in combat.
See the hypothetical invisible mind blank wizard up there remains invisible, but is presumed to be auto-spotted anyway, because it’s impossible for the scenario-guy to actually fail, last I added it all up (barring sinking everything into Dex instead of Int, then max-ranking hide and move silently somehow plus skill focus and stealthy; +23 ranks, +3 focus, +2 stealthy, and +20 invisibility net +48 check - just shy of baddy’s spot check; that leaves Dex mod to try to even out a d20 roll. The invisibility is good, but doesn’t negate figuring out where the wizard is. Like, I’m not against the wizard winning, but I’m not seeing how, yet.
so why doesn't a basic Summon Monster 9 work? Is there something the GM is doing to prevent that? Normally it takes some rather powerful magic.
Yes. You are fighting a demon lord. In its home realm. Which it controls. More specifically, it controls what does and does not function in terms of planar contact (while explicit rules for such were never clarified, the Deities and Demigods supplementexolained how it worked for actual gods, and it can be presumed to be “similar, but less” for demon lords).
Similarly, the best use of a Simulacrum is to create copies of yourself at half level and use them in a cooperative spellcasting fashion or just have them cast spells and buff...
That is not the best use for simulacrum, but it is one of the better ones broadly accepted by many GMs.
While +42 perception is great it's not unbeatable, a simple Obscuring Mist cuts it to 5ft range. Muddy water to 0. Thus a glass of muddy water, cast Control Water(raise) and >theoretically< you can flood a dungeon below or any enclosed area with no SR and no save.
So by this point, the wizard has:
-1) arrived-2) pulled out a scroll and cast it (or expended a spell)
-3) pulls out a somehow still-full glass of muddy water
-4) cast another spell
-5) now cannot see
... and the demon lord and its minions (because it is explicitly attended at all times by creatures who are literally just there to nix assassins) has done nothing.
This does not help the wizard. “Hey! I teleported in, annoyed a demon lord, and teleported out!” is not exactly the goal.
The wizard can teleport and even bring minions, but there are only so many it can bring, and you have to be able to hold the bad guy to prevent it from leaving, too. And bringing in more minions at a faster rate than you can. “I’ve got simulacrum!” Good for you! There are multiple high level wizards working for whoever it is. Not 20th level, but that really isn’t relevant. There are more. And they do have access to the core spells. Thus you’re going to run into similar tactics as you’re using, but with more names using them.
“Mist plus muddy water” is a great way to negate spot checks. But it also prevents you from targeting the thing you have to target to take it down (that total cover from water, yo), and really doesn’t do... anything... to prevent it from stepping out of the water and hurting you to death.
If that’s not what you’re saying than by all means clarify! I want to know! But at present, I am not seeing how your tactics at all help with the goal of “ending the bad guy.”
a water creature with echolocation or the ability to see through muddy water and 3.5 spells (Body of Water/Elemental Body?) really help which is why the wizard that has accomodated himself to a watery environment stays in the water... The object is to change the environment so that your senses work and line of effect (water-water) work but the enemies do not and they have problems. It's well known that line of effect is generally cut at the air-water boundary.
Ah! Now there is something to work with!
(Though I might suggest changing how you word some things; "it's well known" comes off as kind of patronizing in this instance, as if it weren't worthy of mention. It really, really is, given how many people don't know that exact thing.)
well, demon lord on his home plane that he controls... it would have been easier if you stated that in the initial conditions.
... no, it's not. Because it's not relevant. Really, all you needed to know was that summons didn't work, but I kind of thought you'd be frustrated if I didn't give you the reason.
(Which, in fact, the actual reason is even more complex and larger. But, honestly, you could just stick to what I've said multiple times, "there's a city; you can't summon into it, and he's on the other side.")
That really moves it into "mythic" territory which DnD 3.5 doesn't handle well, nor PF for that matter.
An AC of 60 and Spot checks of over 40 aren't "mythic" enough, already?
:D
Honestly with moving goals and unspecified conditions I don't think this can be done and it would take more time than my casual chatting. I'd have to refer you to my profile.
To overcome this challenge I'd suggest re-examination of the goal and a change in strategy to something non-martial -or- creating demiplanes on the target plane and take the battle there.
This will be my last post and best option.
My goals have never moved, my dude.
The thread title is asking for help getting someone to reliably hit an AC of 60. Later, I suggested quite a bit more information and added (perhaps poorly) the idea of looking for non-extreme system mastery ways of overcoming a specific challenge and three others with some vague amount of similarity.
And, I mean, I suppose I did move past "hit AC 60" when I then broadened up the options,
Basically, there is a specific scenario, but there are three other “similar” scenarios as well, so I’m looking for broad/easy access “kill the bad guys” builds that don’t entirely invalidate other concepts with similar characters, allowing for some degree of customization.
... but, I mean, "killing the bad guy" seems to be the only reason why one would really want to hit such a specific AC of 60, yeah? I mean, I suppose there could be a prestige thing or some sort of competition within the game, but... usually asking for someone to be able to reliably hit a target number involves overcoming a serious challenge, and AC usually represents hurting someone.
You came into this thread with, "Oh, you don't need to do that, let a wizard solo it."
I was willing to engage you on your own terms within the system expectations established by the very first post (), and confirmed by other posts thereafter, but you don't follow through - you've shown specific tricks, but then don't follow through with a comprehensive or cohesive whole until I question you on something.
I mean, I said it was PH/DMG and 3.5 (not 3e or PF) in my first post, my third post, my eighth post, and several others... and you repeatedly suggested PF-material.
But when I was talking juuuuuuuuuuust with you, I clarified the problem here, you came back with suggesting PF-only stuff... again.
But, the real problem I have with your suggestion that I'm the one moving goal posts, is that you seem to have never read the rest of the thread and then become frustrated that I didn't give you that information.
Clarified that its a demon lord here, for the record. no summons are mentioned here.
Or, for example, in this very post:
It also modifies environmental attacks as the environment can be changed depending upon the morphability of the plane. I'd have to go back and review 3.5 rules on that but you're mostly in GM territory.
Right, which is why several things you kept insisting on knowing didn't matter. "Why can't I summon things?" isn't relevant.
And this is literally (one aspect) of our conversation:
Me: "You can't summon things"
You: "I suggest summons"
Me: "You can't summon things"
You: "Use your minions"
Me: "What minions? You can't summon"
You: "Why not?"
Me: "Here's why" (though it's not relevant)
You: "You're changing goals"
I mean, this is just one instance (and that last bit from you seems to be directed at all of them, not just the summons thing), but it's kind of difficult to have a conversation.
You're clearly intelligent. But you're making lots of presumptions, ignoring things that I've clearly outlined (some from the beginning, others from quite early on and before you posted in this thread, and then multiple times when talking to you) and then suggesting that general advice isn't applicable and I'm moving the goal posts.
This isn't true. Broadly, I have no problem with the advice you're giving, but you're also refusing to engage the topic at-hand and, even when I give you the benefit of the doubt, you seem to be unaware of information that I've already provided (or are ignoring it or have forgotten it or something).
I can also see that you need specific detailed scenarios rather than general directions or lines of attack
This is silly. I need to know how your stated suggestions fit into any of the actual goals that I've posted here. And you didn't even provide general lines of attack!
"Make yourself unable to be seen with muddy water" isn't an attack, and it doesn't suggest any obvious line of it.
"Be a water element creature with echolocation, then flood a room, making sure to cover both you and the bad guy" is a decent suggestion, because it provides tactical options, and clarifies some ideas of where you're coming from. I mean, it'll likely still get a mage eviscerated , but it's a solid basic tactical suggestion.
I mean, from what I can tell you still seem to be suggesting PF spells (), but you actually give a framework for your attempted idea. That's solid.
your understanding of the spell system is different than mine.
That seems accurate, though I'm more than willing to learn from you. But you're being vague and unclear, and I've been in far too many internet discussions where people presume strategies function via a misunderstanding of the mechanics to just accept:
- step 1) summon water
- step 2) ???
- step 3) profit
... as a valid suggestion.
I didn't even oppose the idea of using the muddy water trick - I just want to know how, exactly, you're planning on using that to your advantage in general.
And, for clarity, I would have no problem using water that way. However, in your own post, you strongly imply you have a problem when a GM "has no common sense and does not understand the game model" - that, when combined with your follow up, "A fine example is that carpenters cannot identify tables from chairs nor mahogany from white pine as it's not explicitly defined under Craft Woodworking/Carpentry, which is clearly an absurd statement." seems to strongly indicate that you look at rules as "meant to be interpreted," not, "pushed to their limits." This philosophy deeply opposes a number of suggestions your proposing, and you're being vague enough (not just conversational, but actually hand-waving important thought-processes or broadly important tactical suggestions) that I can't follow how you arrived at your conclusions.
It's like if I'm a math teacher. A student might somehow select the correct answer from multiple choice, but... that's not really showing why it works, or showing others why it works. It's not complete until you at least show why you're choosing that as your answer.
()
To overcome this challenge I'd suggest re-examination of the goal and a change in strategy to something non-martial -or- creating demiplanes on the target plane and take the battle there.
This will be my last post and best option.
While seemingly well-meaning, this... doesn't make sense.
I've outlined by myself how a party can work together to overcome this challenge in a reasonable manner. Like, right up there. All you have to do is read it. I noted some challenges they would face, and even gave a rough accounting of how the battle might go by likelihood. Another poster came along with an extremely reasonable suggestion (though they lacked some information), and my reply was, "that's very solid, but doesn't work in this instance; here's an example of why." and that's pretty much all. A third poster created a (highly specific) build as, even though I was looking for more generic things, it showed several instances of solid use of core handbook principles and elements, and, frankly, was a great build with a decent handle on answering the specific question ("how do I reliably hit this AC?").
I'm willing to accept if you come up with a clever arcane solution, but there are challenges, and your suggestions have ignored specific limitations that I've previously listed (sometimes even when in conversation with you), question the validity of those limitations, and when provided with reasoning you go on to suggest both that the system can't handle such things and that I'm somehow changing the goals.
And your "last post and best option" (which I honestly hope it's not, on both accounts) is literally, "change your goals." That's... kind of ironic (in the humorous way), since your stated problem is that I've been somehow changing my goals on you.
I'm sorry this has clearly been a frustrating experience for you, but on my end I've repeatedly tried to
Related, though, I'm not sure how you're planning a 3.5 version of "make a demiplane" nor how you'd expect to get the bad guy into said demiplane.
Genesis isn't a very good spell for direct combat use and requires access to the ethereal plane, and things like rope trick are hard to enforce. Create demiplane and its variants are all PF-specific. And then how would you get him there?
That said, the idea of moving him off-plane is possible - as an example you just have to have a bag of holding and a portable hole (though, as I recall, there is a save to avoid being sucked into that, and he's got really good saves that I outlined here, and it doesn't necessarily put him where you can defeat him for good); maybe also other ways, I'm just not thinking of them.
EDIT: a specific word choice
Ah, attention deficit and young children.
EDIT: a specific word choice
... this is especially hilarious considering,
I'm sorry this has clearly been a frustrating experience for you, but on my end I've repeatedly tried to
I'm good at typing, you guys, I swear!
Anyway, it's supposed to go something like this,
"I'm sorry this has clearly been a frustrating experience for you, but on my end I've repeatedly tried to clarify the exact same concepts, many of which have been clarified before you started posting, but somehow never engaged with."
... or something, I'unno, it's been two hours. Feel free to dock me 50 XP for it. It's a pretty lame fail on my part. XD
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Is is wrong that I find some of the earlier stream-of-(slightly-fevered)-consciousness posts to be extremely hilarious? :D
Seeing as the target/foe is a _demon_ lord, I assume that all forms of electricity and poison damage are a no-go.
With regard to tactics, magic items, and spells, may I suggest looking at some of the Savage Tide threads on this board? That AP (Paizo's third and last Dungeon AP) ends with a show-down against a demon lord. The various STap campaign journals will most likely showcase the tactics that did (or didn't) work. IIRC, PHDungeon had a rather epic thread.