“Why do you think Sarenrae is good aligned? She opened the Pit of Gormuz and left it open just so the Tarrasque and his brethren could escape. That means she’s clearly evil.”

[Rysky]

And again, there’s other exits unto the surface before the Pit of Gormuz, at least with Gormuz being a wasteland now people now finally know not to go there.

[SOLDIER-1st]

When Einstein was faced with the seemingly contradictory law of general relativity and principle of the invariance of light, both of which were shown to be true in their respective fields, he did not then throw one or the other out, presuming it to be false. Instead he constructed his new model assuming them both to be true at the same time. I would encourage that same mindset here.

We know that Sarenrae is Good. We also know the events surrounding Gormuz. Rather than being lazy and immediately conclude that one of the premises is false, instead view these things with the confidence that they can both be true simultaneously, and then construct your perspective from there.

I can definitely understand James feeling that people are intentionally looking for ways to misconstrue this.

[BobTheCoward]

The setting is high fantasy with god legends influenced by historical mythology. In that setting, that is what passes for lawful good. A character would grow up in that world.

Conan isn't going to sit down and say, "you know, I think there are serious issues with stories about Crom unless we consider developments in string theory."

[zimmerwald1915]

BobTheCoward wrote:

In that setting, that is what passes for lawful good.

Neutral Good, but yes. The setting's bar for Goodness is just low. C'est la vie.

[Set]

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

We know that Sarenrae is Good. We also know the events surrounding Gormuz. Rather than being lazy and immediately conclude that one of the premises is false, instead view these things with the confidence that they can both be true simultaneously, and then construct your perspective from there.

Great post. Not 'this is wrong!' but 'how can we reconcile this?' Constructive, I like. Offer solutions, hope for that No-Prize. :)

[Deadmanwalking]

For one thing it's worth noting that, per Mythic Relams, her Herald (the one attacked by the people of Gormuz) is still alive in some sense, trapped in the pit in a corrupted form, and could theoretically be freed/redeemed, which, per that book, would meaningfully weaken Rovagug (it is referred to as a 'heavy blow to the Rough Beast').

So, given how important weakening Rovagug is, in a 'survival of all reality' sense, it's very plausible that even if the Pit does cause additional casualties (something I'm still not prepared to grant) keeping the pit open might be worth it in the long term. And, certainly, rescuing and redeeming a beloved servant provides a perfectly understandable personal motivation for Sarenrae keeping the Pit open as an access point to do that.

It's even plausible that the people of Gormuz cast the Herald down to the Rough Beast in some spiritual sense and that blasting a hole to the Herald's prison was some part of her motivation in the manner of Gormuz's destruction (though clearly she was also extremely pissed off).

[Mudfoot]

We know that Rovagug is the most powerful god there is. So is it unreasonable to believe that he manipulated Saranrae into making the Pit? And maybe she realises/suspects that she's been manipulated, and isn't going to risk going near the place again to "fix" it, just in case she does it wrong? Pathfinder gods aren't omniscient, and Rovagug has had an awful lot of time to do nothing but plan its escape.

Maybe Rovagug's next move is to challenge Gorum to a fight. He can't turn that down.

[Deadmanwalking]

Mudfoot wrote:

We know that Rovagug is the most powerful god there is. So is it unreasonable to believe that he manipulated Saranrae into making the Pit?

This is pretty explicitly canonical, having been stated outright a few places.

Mudfoot wrote:

And maybe she realises/suspects that she's been manipulated, and isn't going to risk going near the place again to "fix" it, just in case she does it wrong? Pathfinder gods aren't omniscient, and Rovagug has had an awful lot of time to do nothing but plan its escape.

This is likely part of what's going on, yes. One can have a lot of different motivations for doing the same thing, after all.

Mudfoot wrote:

Maybe Rovagug's next move is to challenge Gorum to a fight. He can't turn that down.

I'm pretty sure he can. Nothing about his anathema or personality make Gorum stupid or incapable of avoiding a fight temporarily if that's his best tactical option. He can't try for peace, but either Rovagug will stay trapped forever (and is thus already defeated and not worth Gorum's time), or he'll eventually get out, and then Gorum can engage him in battle. Either works for the Our Lord In Iron.

[Erk Ander]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Mudfoot wrote:

We know that Rovagug is the most powerful god there is. So is it unreasonable to believe that he manipulated Saranrae into making the Pit?

This is pretty explicitly canonical, having been stated outright a few places.

Hmm, I think Jacobs has said Pharasma is the most powerful with Rova being numero dos.

Where does it say he manipulated Sarenrae. Also Sarenrae has a temper doesn't make here evil.

[zimmerwald1915]

Erk Ander wrote:

Hmm, I think Jacobs has said Pharasma is the most powerful with Rova being numero dos.

Where does it say he manipulated Sarenrae. Also Sarenrae has a temper doesn't make here evil.

Pharasma doesn't intervene in the world, so how powerful she is doesn't matter.

[Deadmanwalking]

Erk Ander wrote:

Hmm, I think Jacobs has said Pharasma is the most powerful with Rova being numero dos.

The canonical part is the manipulation, not necessarily his power level, sorry for being unclear on that.

Erk Ander wrote:

Where does it say he manipulated Sarenrae.

It's mentioned as true in Mythic Realms, which refers to Sarenrae as having been 'tricked by the Rough Beast'.

Erk Ander wrote:

Also Sarenrae has a temper doesn't make here evil.

Yep.