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Was there ever a concensus on whether Jump Jets added to your move speed, or replaced it? Or other limitations like how normal jumping works where you can fly but not past your normal speed?
I ask because of an interaction my character will have at level 5 with the feat Sky Jockey. This will increase the Fly speed on the Jump Jets to 40ft, 10 above average speed, and thus if she's going in a straight line, her most effective form of movement.
The way I see it for each of the three possibilities:
Adds to your speed: There is the limitation of having to be on stable footing (or in 0G) when you finish your movement. Whilst in a straight line, this would make a character's land speed up to 60ft, this is at the cost of an armor slot (which few early armors have), 2 charges per movement, and 1000 credits. Plus, you can't use the Jump Jets on a Charge due to their action economy only working as part of specifically a move action. When you're not going in a straight line, the limitations of flight movement apply, so 5ft to turn 45°, 10ft to go up 5ft, needing Acrobatics for maneuvers, etc. Plus needing to land, taking a lot of the utility out of flight. All in all, not unbalancing overall when the costs are considered, compared directly to the Jetpack being triple the credit cost but able to take larger battery, having better energy economy, and able to remain in the air, or the later upgrade Forcepack.
Replaces your speed: You're able to make a move action with Fly speed 30ft. It's not "fly during your movement" as the description states, but it makes enough sense. It is really early access to a fly speed which to an extent can circumvent some Athletics checks, and take advantage of three dimensional space and terrain in unique ways. Like flying around the edge of the cliff to get into flanking with an enemy in tight quarters. There's a lot of utility in it despite the costs.
Limitations based on normal speed: It lets you "fly during your movement", so by how jumping works you can get that fly, but so long as you don't cover more ground than you could without. This is a bit confusing to track, because then the 45° turn costing 5ft, would that take 5ft from your original speed's total? Or essentially can you, so long as you only end up moving 30ft total, use as much of the Fly 30ft as you need to. It would also make a little bit of sense with the vertical 20ft part of jump jets, if you could move 5ft towards a wall, leap the 20ft up with your jump jets, and then move the last 5ft forward from your move to land safely on the platform. Again though, difficult to track and what counts as what?
If we could get an FAQ or a consensus on this one, that'd be swell. Flying prone we reached a consensus despite I imagine a well deserved book patch adding "you can only take the Crawl or Stand move actions while prone". The first 2 options though would both still let you fly prone in theory.
The relevant text, for convenience:
I thought it just gave you a fly speed with a few added limitations. I hadn't even considered your other interpretations. Reading them now, though, I can easily see how someone would come to those conclusions.
FAQ'ing.
I definitely wouldn't think it would be option A), seems too cheap an option to greatly increase your speed.
My assumption had been option B), but C) also makes sense, thought it would quickly get awkward and slow down play.
I think my preference & table ruling is option B), but I hit that FAQ button because it could easily be confused.
If we could get an FAQ or a consensus on this one, that'd be swell. Flying prone we reached a consensus despite I imagine a well deserved book patch adding "you can only take the Crawl or Stand move actions while prone". The first 2 options though would both still let you fly prone in theory.
I have to be missing it, but I don't actually see anywhere in the book or FAQ that says you can't move normally while prone.
You are lying on the ground. You take a –4 penalty to melee attack rolls. You gain a +4 bonus to your Armor Class against ranged attacks, but you take a –4 penalty to your Armor Class against melee attacks. Standing up from prone is a move action.
Also, I'd say #2, but I'm mostly basing that on the iconic Iseph with jump jets being listed as having a fly speed. I am aware this is not strong evidence.
If we could get an FAQ or a consensus on this one, that'd be swell. Flying prone we reached a consensus despite I imagine a well deserved book patch adding "you can only take the Crawl or Stand move actions while prone". The first 2 options though would both still let you fly prone in theory.I have to be missing it, but I don't actually see anywhere in the book or FAQ that says you can't move normally while prone.
You are lying on the ground. You take a –4 penalty to melee attack rolls. You gain a +4 bonus to your Armor Class against ranged attacks, but you take a –4 penalty to your Armor Class against melee attacks. Standing up from prone is a move action.
Exactly. It was the topic of discussion the last time I talked about Jump Jets, whether you could Vanquish-style power slide around the floor. We came to the conclusion Prone lacks any wording you can't move normally, however it's implied since Crawl is a movement option. This is why I was saying it wouldn't be a surprise to see the wording from the Pathfinder Playtest I was mentioning show up under Prone in the next rulebook printing.
The way i read it seems like C ....and just some quick thoughts about prone... while your prone you can only craw 5 feet as a move, would that not limit the distance you could jump jet to 5 if we're talking C?... and with this & other abilities that might allows someone to fly from prone I can see requiring a roll for average, and maybe no chance with poor maneuverability, and auto success for perfect
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The relevant text, for convenience:
I guess it depends on if the jump jets themselves are creating the movement, or if it is only a change of movement ability for your character.
If the jump jets create the movement, that would be the most realistic. But would also be the most unbalancing to the game mechanics. However, if we ruled it this way, then option A would be the proper interpretation.
If instead we rule that the jump jets only allow a different form of movement, then I think that would be closest to option C.
My attempt at clarifying the rule to match option C would be: replace 'You can fly up to 30 feet (average maneuverability) with a maximum height of 10 feet, or you can fly up to 20 feet straight up.'
with "you can convert up to 30 feet of your existing movement speed into a fly speed (average maneuverability) and a maximum height of 10 feet. Alternatively you can use 30 feet of your movement speed to fly up to 20 feet straight up."
That is the mental conversion that I did when I read the rules as written anyway.
The way i read it seems like C ....and just some quick thoughts about prone... while your prone you can only craw 5 feet as a move, would that not limit the distance you could jump jet to 5 if we're talking C?... and with this & other abilities that might allows someone to fly from prone I can see requiring a roll for average, and maybe no chance with poor maneuverability, and auto success for perfect
According to RAW, when you crawl you count as prone, but being prone doesn't make you crawl (or limit you to crawling). {trollface}
Alright, ten people. That's the most in a while, can we get Owen on it?
*sets up a nice chair for Owen*
HastyMantis we're talking about the flight from jump jets which is limited by your available movement.... and it would seem ..according to special movement rules pg 257 it would be either a double movement cost or minimum movement situation ....Isaac's group seemed to prefer the later option, my comment about jump jets references being limited to the 5ft minimum movement ...the second part was more a musing about if it should be possible to fly up off the ground from prone using better forms of flight
Honestly after reading the text Ravingdork conveniently included, I think I'm taking an even narrower read.
You don't gain a "fly speed" because that's not what it says. It says you can go fly according to these parameters/limitations. I guess you could call that "replacing your speed".
Think of it this way: Dimension door let's you pop "over there". Does that mean it gives you a teleport speed? Personally I don't think so. I think of having a fly speed/teleport speed/whatever speed as an ability that has other consequences. (For instance, a monster can do nasty thing to creatures, unless they have a fly speed.)
In terms of effect, do you have a teleport speed for the duration of the spell? Hm, sort of I guess if you want to look at it that way, but the objective difference between them is slight.
From this point of view, I feel like a lot of the rest is moot.