Can you use a wish or miracle to permenantly change someone's alignment (I assume they get a will save to resist). Or is that too powerful?
I imagine that you couldn't use a wish spell to target "alignment," since it's just an abstract term for the summation of a character's beliefs and actions. A PC or NPC casting/using wish has no concept of alignment. I suppose they could have the spell target their personality, the recent memories of defining experiences, or undo recent defining actions, but there's no guarantee that it would have the mechanic-based effect that a player or GM is hoping for.
Maybe one could sever the source of whatever generates a cleric's/paladin's alignment-based aura, but that's not really the same thing.
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There's a 20-th level alchemist discovery that lets him forcefully change another alignment, so the effect exist. It may be however a bit difficult to reproduce with wish. Which isn't to say that's impossible, but it would probably don't work completely or have some side effects.
For example, it could give the target the Multiple Personality Disorcer.
Or it could cleanse/taint someone's soul with a given metaphysical quality, pushing him towards this afterlife, but without affecting the target's behavior.
Or it could just affect how the character is detected by detect chaos/evil/good/law spells, again without affecting the target's behavior.
Or it will manipulate the future to subtly steer the target towards redemption/damnation, without affecting the present at all.
I would say that a wish like that can definitely be made, and it will do something, but there is no guarantee it will work as intended. The GM decides what happens.
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I think most people actually DO know what alignment is since in the Pathfinder universe it's not just an abstraction but an objective, measurable quality like mass or electrical charge. And even if you don't automatically know what alignment you are you can use the detect (insert alignment here) spells on yourself to find out.
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Miracle specifically say you don't really cast it, you use the spell to ask your deity to interceed. This means the power of a Miracle is 100% GM-fiat. It absolutely can change someone's alignment ... if your GM allows it (if they think it'll help the story or whatever).
Wish is more or less the same, but the power comes from the caster. While not actually as powerful as a deity, 17+ level wizards/sorcerers are hugely powerful. There is a 19th level wizard in golarion who is worshipped as a god, so from a mortal perspective there's clearly not much difference.
The real answer is: Ask your GM
If you are the GM then the answer is: What suits the story best?
And I don't mean rail-roading - If this is an interesting twist one of the PCs just threw at you that you weren't expecting it could still make for great role-playing.
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I imagine that you couldn't use a wish spell to target "alignment," since it's just an abstract term for the summation of a character's beliefs and actions. A PC or NPC casting/using wish has no concept of alignment. I suppose they could have the spell target their personality, the recent memories of defining experiences, or undo recent defining actions, but there's no guarantee that it would have the mechanic-based effect that a player or GM is hoping for.
Maybe one could sever the source of whatever generates a cleric's/paladin's alignment-based aura, but that's not really the same thing.
But, a spellcaster can literally see alignment long before they could ever cast wish/miracle. Why would they be unaware of it?
@OP: As a GM, I'd allow it with a save to resist. Atonement can change alignments at a lower level, but willing only and slower. changing willing to will negates and casting time to 1 action is the benefit for spending more money and a 9th level spell slot.
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But, a spellcaster can literally see alignment long before they could ever cast wish/miracle. Why would they be unaware of it?I imagine that you couldn't use a wish spell to target "alignment," since it's just an abstract term for the summation of a character's beliefs and actions. A PC or NPC casting/using wish has no concept of alignment. I suppose they could have the spell target their personality, the recent memories of defining experiences, or undo recent defining actions, but there's no guarantee that it would have the mechanic-based effect that a player or GM is hoping for.
Maybe one could sever the source of whatever generates a cleric's/paladin's alignment-based aura, but that's not really the same thing.
From the circles I gamed with pre-Pathfinder days, alignment was just an abstraction, describing a collection of nuances into a handy game mechanic that a player can understand quickly at the gaming table. Like the spell that tells you how close to death a character has, it was understood that while the player understands how many hit points are left, the character doesn't know what hit points are. Another example is the spell/ability that tells you how powerful a character is. The player may find out what level the target of the spell is, but it's understood that the character who cast the spell gets a more nuanced answer (that isn't defined to the player) since they don't have the concept of character levels.
Anyway, my argument isn't that wish or miracle couldn't change alignment, but that a caster wouldn't understand what alignment is and would have to target something less abstract that would have the effect of changing the alignment game mechanic.
However, a few have said or implied above that Pathfinder has done away with this abstraction, which I didn't know. So I rescind my advice and argument since I don't know the context for why alignment in Pathfinder is quantifiable. I would think that would open the door, for example, for a barbarian and a swashbuckler to discuss how many rage points and panache points they have, which breaks verisimilitude to me.
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At the very least, people of Golarion would be aware of existance of various auras that can be emitted by some objects or creatures. Maybe not everyone in Golarion would know about them, but spellcasters and scholars definitely would, as there exist spells that interact with these auras, detecting, hiding or modifying them.
They would also be aware that people that do evil things tend to emit a different aura than people that do good things. So the names 'evil aura' and 'good aura' could certainly by used in-character as well.
Then you just need one theoretician of magic to define (in-character) the alignment as the thing in a person that determines the type of an aura.
But if that's how the term 'alignment' would be used in-character, then the wish to change one's alignment would just change the type of aura emitted by a character. That would not have to mean interfering with their mind, unless changing the thing that generates the aura also somehow affects the mind. But I don't think it does, it would rather work in the opposite direction, the mind affects the thing that generates the aura.
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Location is fluid, wish can change location without making it fixed. Alignment is fluid, is a wish can change it then it need not be fixed after the change.
I would caution against allowing a wish spell to change a person's alignment. Its a good way for characters to lose a significant amount of power.
Baleful Polymorph can rob someone of opposable thumbs and the ability to speak, and is several levels lower. Changing alignment is, from a perspective of power, relatively trivial.
Wish could certainly change a creature's alignment. It's wierd to me to think that it couldn't when you have items like helm of opposite alignment. Not to mention spells like detect good, undetectable alignment, holy word, align weapon, atonement, etc. It's something that is certainly quantifiable to characters in the world.
Also, as has been mentioned it isn't fixed. You could use a wish to change someone's alignment but people around him will notice the change. Anyone that was said character's friend might convince them that they aren't acting like themselves and should seek out an atonement spell. The former evil wizard for example, could be convinced by one of his minions to seek out an evil cleric to cast atonement on him. A character who has lost class abilities over the alignment change would reasonably do the same.
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Even if you're just failing the first save, good luck casting spells as a sheep. Even if you have still and silent spell feats (no rods because no hands), you still need someone to help you turning the pages of your spell book. And you can't talk to them, so good luck coordinating said help. By the way, Mage Hand has both Somatic and Verbal components!
Or, y'know, "Trap the Soul" or "Binding" or such. Last time I checked, being dead also costs you substantial amounts of power.
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You can cast wish to teleport someone’s beating heart into your hand; you could also use the spell slot on a heightened persistent flesh to stone.
As a DM, I’d let you change someone’s alignment with wish. They’d get a will save, though, so hit them with some debuffs or enchantments first to make sure it’s not money wasted.
I also wouldn’t try anything underhanded like having them try to get atonement cast on them; since they’re good aligned now they’d probably be horrified just thinking about their past misdeeds, they wouldn’t want to become that person again. Seriously people, this isn’t a game breaking wish. It’s roughly in line with dominate person power-wise.
Also could you use wish to remove an acquired template from someone that makes them evil? (broken soul is the one I am thinking of right now) and would they return to their previous alignment then.
I know of two ways to change someone's alignment, outside wish and miracle. The Helm of Opposite Alignment, and Greater Bestow Curse.
Huh. I can't find any reference to Greater Bestow Curse changing alignment? Where does it say it can do so?
Bestow curse can inflict an insanity, including psychosis. It can also, at GM discretion, inflict a curse as powerful (or less) as the default curses. Something akin to psychosis but changing alignment instead of outright making the victim an omnicidal maniac seems within scope, though the victim would get a will save every day to ignore it. Plus, it would be a curse, subject to removal by such means.
Greater bestow curse can inflict curses even more powerful, up to the ones depicted in the spell description. I wouldn't let it take away the daily will save, but I might make it more difficult or give it a shorter duration on success.
These are magical afflictions, though. If you want to instantaneously change a character's alignment, that's tricky. Just changing their alignment would be very temporary, as they wouldn't be bound by it in their further actions so they'd probably drift back to where they were. Want to make it forever? Now you're taking away the creature's free will, permanently, with no magical effect to dispel nor means of resisting the effect itself. That's way stronger than dominate monster or simply changing a creature's alignment. I don't know if even a wish would pull that off by itself.
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Nothing really new, just basically a summary of some of the stuff said before:
One incredibly problematic part of this question is whether alignment is prescriptive or descriptive.
That is, whether someone has an alignment because they act a certain way (actions causing alignment, alignment describing actions), or whether they act a certain way because they have a certain alignment (alignment causing/prescribing actions).
Or worse, a mix of the two.
If actions cause alignment, then wish might just change the mechanical alignment without changing behaviour. A great way to hide their villainy! (A wand of Protection from Evil is still cheaper, though.)
Or it might inflict them with a more permanent geas to follow a certain alignment's behaviour.
If alignment causes actions, then they'd essentially become a different person. Which is a perfect setup for all kinds of mental issues, like split personalities, or being traumatised by their own past actions.
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If you want to instantaneously change a character's alignment, that's tricky. Just changing their alignment would be very temporary, as they wouldn't be bound by it in their further actions so they'd probably drift back to where they were. Want to make it forever? Now you're taking away the creature's free will, permanently, with no magical effect to dispel nor means of resisting the effect itself. That's way stronger than dominate monster or simply changing a creature's alignment. I don't know if even a wish would pull that off by itself.
I don't know why we'd assume that there's no way of resisting the effect, duplicated spells offer a save; I'd grant a will save to resist the effect. A geas could do much the same, without the save. Or a dominate person could be refreshed every few days. And a flesh to stone could just kill someone. So it seems to me that mind-fudgery is well within the purview of wish.
One incredibly problematic part of this question is whether alignment is prescriptive or descriptive.
That is, whether someone has an alignment because they act a certain way (actions causing alignment, alignment describing actions), or whether they act a certain way because they have a certain alignment (alignment causing/prescribing actions).
Alignment is altogether a squicky subject. As a player, I'd word the wish to avoid mentioning it altogether.
One incredibly problematic part of this question is whether alignment is prescriptive or descriptive.
*fist bump*
But Baleful Polymorph can't remove your class abilities. An alignment change can. It can even block you from progressing your current class.I would caution against allowing a wish spell to change a person's alignment. Its a good way for characters to lose a significant amount of power.Baleful Polymorph can rob someone of opposable thumbs and the ability to speak, and is several levels lower. Changing alignment is, from a perspective of power, relatively trivial.
You're thinking too small. Remember, Wishes more powerful than what is described in the spell are supposed to have unintended consequences. If you cast Wish on the Antipaladin, changing him to LG, now he's a Paladin, and immediately starts judging the party for all their crimes, and for some strange reason... his Smite Evil works on the party. The caster gets more than they bargained for.
You're thinking too small. Remember, Wishes more powerful than what is described in the spell are supposed to have unintended consequences. If you cast Wish on the Antipaladin, changing him to LG, now he's a Paladin, and immediately starts judging the party for all their crimes, and for some strange reason... his Smite Evil works on the party. The caster gets more than they bargained for.But Baleful Polymorph can't remove your class abilities. An alignment change can. It can even block you from progressing your current class.I would caution against allowing a wish spell to change a person's alignment. Its a good way for characters to lose a significant amount of power.Baleful Polymorph can rob someone of opposable thumbs and the ability to speak, and is several levels lower. Changing alignment is, from a perspective of power, relatively trivial.
What’s the point of even casting wish if whenever you try your DM pulls something stupid like someone spontaneously turning into a paladin and smiting non-evil targets?
What’s the point of even casting wish if whenever you try your DM pulls something stupid like someone spontaneously turning into a paladin and smiting non-evil targets?You're thinking too small. Remember, Wishes more powerful than what is described in the spell are supposed to have unintended consequences. If you cast Wish on the Antipaladin, changing him to LG, now he's a Paladin, and immediately starts judging the party for all their crimes, and for some strange reason... his Smite Evil works on the party. The caster gets more than they bargained for.But Baleful Polymorph can't remove your class abilities. An alignment change can. It can even block you from progressing your current class.I would caution against allowing a wish spell to change a person's alignment. Its a good way for characters to lose a significant amount of power.Baleful Polymorph can rob someone of opposable thumbs and the ability to speak, and is several levels lower. Changing alignment is, from a perspective of power, relatively trivial.
Go read the Wish spell. It has a list of effects you can do, that have zero unintended consequences. It also has a clause that says you can go beyond these, but doing so can have unintended consequences.
From the text of the Wish spell:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
(bold emphasis added)
So, if you want to argue that it is within the normal ability of the spell to change someone's alignment, which option are you invoking specifically?
If you agree that it is not within the normal ability of the spell (for side effect free results), then would you agree that there have to be unintended side effects? We can discuss what should, or shouldn't be effective side effects, but if you're going to tell me it shouldn't have side effects, I want to know which of the bulleted clauses you're invoking to say it shouldn't have side effects.
The thing you are b%*#!ing about is literally in the text of the spell. Don't get mad at me for how Paizo wrote the spell.
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You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
ಠ_ಠ
That clause is there to prevent campaign breaking wishes. Wishes more powerful than what you could get out of a self-researched spell. This is not such a wish.
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Yeah, that clause is so that when someone wishes "I want to become a god", their personality gets erased and they turn into the perfect copy of an existing god. Nethys #22 sighs in disappointment that there's yet another instance of him.
But "I wish that [target] turns [alignment]" isn't that much out of line next to Baleful Polymorph, Mark of Justice, Geas, and other spells that make you unable to do stuff, discourage you from doing stuff, or discouraging you from not doing stuff, all of which are at much lower levels than Wish.
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Eh, that's in the realm of reasonable debate, mostly dependent on whether said alignment change requires the character to act differently in the future, how long it lasts, whether (and how) it can be removed short of another wish, and so on. If none of those are specified, I'd advise the GM to interpret the wish to create an effect on par with the others. The only times a GM should turn into Jackass Genie is when either (a) the wish is impossible to resolve without being overly literal or (b) the source of the wish is an actual Jackass Genie or similarly deceptive source.
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Eh, that's in the realm of reasonable debate, mostly dependent on whether said alignment change requires the character to act differently in the future, how long it lasts, whether (and how) it can be removed short of another wish, and so on. If none of those are specified, I'd advise the GM to interpret the wish to create an effect on par with the others. The only times a GM should turn into Jackass Genie is when either (a) the wish is impossible to resolve without being overly literal or (b) the source of the wish is an actual Jackass Genie or similarly deceptive source.
. . .
I looked at that link.
I thought to myself, That’s a link to TV Tropes, I’d stake my firstborn on it.
I thought to myself, I know what page that link links to, too. I’ve read it before. Not much point reading it again.
I thought to myself, if I click that link, I’ll wind opening several more, in an exponential fashion, and I don’t have all day to wiki walk.
I thought to myself, I’m going to open that link anyway, aren’t I.
I was right. I hope you’re proud of yourself, Blaphers.
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} : D
There's nothing like showing someone the door to Hell and watching them walk through of their own free will.
Helm of Opposite Alignment is only caster level 12. Anyone arguing that a wish to change someone’s alignment isn’t possible without perversion is 100% wrong. I don’t care if you don’t like it. It is an irrefutable fact that this is possible without perversion.
The way the wish works would simply be “I wish for ____ to be ____ alignment” and the target would get a will save. One and only one will save. And then they act like they always were that alignment, just like how they would if affected by a Helm of Opposite Alignment. It isn’t that difficult to understand this. This is basic Pathfinder.
to start with, I agree that wish could clearly be used to change someone's alignment and it may or may not result in a save. However, there isn't a spell called helm of opposite alignment. Nor is a helm of opposite alignment based on any particular spell since it's a cursed item that can come from multiple types of magic helms. What's more a helm of opposite alignment has a very specific effect. If I use wish to wish for person X to become Neutral Good, that would not even be an effect the helm would be capable of if the person in question was for example, true neutral or lawful good.
Wish has a specific list of things it can do. Replicating the effect of a cursed item is not on the list of specific things it can do. The spell does go on to state that you can attempt to do things outside the list, but those things "may" have unintended consequences or may not work at all depending on the DMs interpretation of the wish.
Wish has a specific list of things it can do. Replicating the effect of a cursed item is not on the list of specific things it can do. The spell does go on to state that you can attempt to do things outside the list, but those things "may" have unintended consequences or may not work at all depending on the DMs interpretation of the wish.
Wish says greater effects may be dangerous. Things that are on the same or lower power level as the wishes listed shouldn't be a problem, even if they aren't on the list.
So the question is: Is changing the alignment - similar to a Helm of Opposite Alignment, but with a specific alignment in mind - greater than the listed effects?
That is absolutely a big part of it.
IMO it is not more powerful then the options listed. However, part of the problem is that the effect falls into a grey area. It states you can do A, B, or C or you can try to do an effect greater then those, but it might backfire.
It technically doesn't state you can do an effect equal to or less then A, B, or C. Logic certainly dictates that you should be able to, but it's not explicitly stated that you can. As a result it's still a DM call. Unless there is a spell that accomplishes the specific task in which case wish would simply copy said spell. It should be noted that depending how powerful said spell should be it might be considered a greater effect.
I mean, even just duplicating a 7th level divine spell that happens to be part of your opposition school is enough for it to be considered a "greater" effect. For example trying to cast "mass inflict serious wounds" when necromancy is an opposition school for you.
Wish has a specific list of things it can do. Replicating the effect of a cursed item is not on the list of specific things it can do. The spell does go on to state that you can attempt to do things outside the list, but those things "may" have unintended consequences or may not work at all depending on the DMs interpretation of the wish.Wish says greater effects may be dangerous. Things that are on the same or lower power level as the wishes listed shouldn't be a problem, even if they aren't on the list.
So the question is: Is changing the alignment - similar to a Helm of Opposite Alignment, but with a specific alignment in mind - greater than the listed effects?
Here's my question, in order to ask for what you want, what clause of Wish are you invoking?
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
* Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
* Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
* Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
* Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
* Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
* Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
* Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The re-roll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and Spell Resistance (if any) applies.You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
You can achieve any ONE of those effects, which one do you think best describes it?
You can achieve any ONE of those effects, which one do you think best describes it?
So, you would say that anything not listed must be automatically greater than anything on the list?
That being said...
"I wish that [target] turns [alignment]" isn't that much out of line next to Baleful Polymorph, Mark of Justice, Geas, and other spells that make you unable to do stuff, discourage you from doing stuff, or discouraging you from not doing stuff, all of which are at much lower levels than Wish.
Going with reasonable limitations (which mostly end up as "the target gets a saving throw, and while it shouldn't go out of its way to return to its own alignment, it's not impossible"), I don't see it as out of line with other enchantment spells.
To be fair, instantaneous effects also lose their magical reinforcement, so while "permanent" can and has to be be dispelled, "instantaneous" is open for later change, both magical and mundane.
"Permanent" would mean there's a constant push for them to stick to their new alignment. "Instantaneous" would mean they could walk right up to a cleric of their old alignment and ask for an Atonement spell.
You can achieve any ONE of those effects, which one do you think best describes it?So, you would say that anything not listed must be automatically greater than anything on the list?
That being said...
"I wish that [target] turns [alignment]" isn't that much out of line next to Baleful Polymorph, Mark of Justice, Geas, and other spells that make you unable to do stuff, discourage you from doing stuff, or discouraging you from not doing stuff, all of which are at much lower levels than Wish.Going with reasonable limitations (which mostly end up as "the target gets a saving throw, and while it shouldn't go out of its way to return to its own alignment, it's not impossible"), I don't see it as out of line with other enchantment spells.
I am asking the exact question that I asked. I'll reword it for clarity.
Which clause of the Wish spell are you invoking to claim it can change the target's alignment? Be specific.
To add to the above, this isn't a "gotchya" question. It's a question that tells us how we apply the text to other portions of the text. I want to make sure there there is zero confusion about how we are interpreting the spell, so that our conversation can be fruitful. If we're just talking past each other, we don't get anywhere useful.
If you're invoking "Duplicate a Wizard spell of X level", then the follow up is "which spell?" Cause the Wish spell doesn't modify that spell, it casts it exactly as that spell is written. So, if you are invoking another spell, and using Wish to recreate it's effects, it has to be THAT spell.
Are you invoking one of the "Duplicate a Wizard spell of X level" clauses?
I fully agree with your last point.
And I do think that the effect is "greater" than the a spell, because if it was a spell, you could just copy that spell (assuming that spell was within the parameters of your class/opposed school definitions). The only clause that can be invoked to go outside of the bullet points is the "greater" clause, which if that is the clause you are invoking, inherently means that it is "greater". If it weren't, you'd be invoking a different clause.
Once you invoke the "greater" clause, it becomes entirely within the realm of GM discretion.
I was thinking about this some more and there's an example of this that could have been used in a campaign in which I was a player many years ago. A PC paladin had fallen, and through a series of events became a villain. He became a death knight type character, undead, hard to destroy, and would return every so often. We did finally destroy him, but it was a lot of rituals, and took a lot of preparation.
If I were GM'ing that now, one possible solution to put him to rest forever would be to temporarily destroy his body, then cast a Wish/Miracle to alter the alignment of his soul, thereby disrupting the cycle of return that kept happening. It would still be more powerful than an Atonement spell, since it would alter the soul without a save, or presenting it as a choice, but assuming that I had made the party jump through plenty of hoops prior to the casting, I wouldn't attach any strings or make it partial.
When a player tries to use the "greater" clause as a "get out of jail free" card without thought, I am more likely to pervert the intent of the Wish. If a player is using it in a serious and contextual manner that is appropriate to the game, I am unlikely to do that. If a player is changing the target's alignment as the capstone of a long story, I'm cool with it. If they just want to neuter the bad guy because they think they're clever, they have to hope I'm not equally as clever as they are.