I would say no.
Cover isn't so much about the density of the material providing the cover as it is about seeing your target clearly. Other players can offer cover bonuses to their allies.
Just because you know a target is behind a wall, or door, or vehicle doesn't mean you know where the target is behind it.
It doesn't penetrate. Even ignoring hardness something can still have enough HP depending on its size to still block your shot.
Yeah, HP on a wall is for destroying a 10x10 section. A line weapon would still punch a small hole in it if it beats hardness.
BNW, I don't see how the object's HP matter at all. Clearly you can do less than the total HP to an NPC and the line would still continue.
Extreme example: a mountain has hardnes 10 and a bajillion hit points. Are you telling me that an adamantine bullet is going through the entire thing?
Extreme example: a mountain has hardnes 10 and a bajillion hit points. Are you telling me that an adamantine bullet is going through the entire thing?
BNW, I don't see how the object's HP matter at all. Clearly you can do less than the total HP to an NPC and the line would still continue.
If the increment on the line weapon is longer than the mountain is wide. But that itself would be an extreme weapon example. The actual existing rail cannons would penetrate no more than 100'.
If the increment on the line weapon is longer than the mountain is wide. But that itself would be an extreme weapon example. The actual existing rail cannons would penetrate no more than 100'.
Weapons can fire beyond their range increment, so there really is no basis for this ruling.
Just because you ignore an objects hardness does not mean that you ignore its hit points. No. Your adamantine bullet does not pass through 100 feet of rock.
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Not supporting the shoot through an entire mountain argument, but line weapons can't damage past their listed range.
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If the increment on the line weapon is longer than the mountain is wide. But that itself would be an extreme weapon example. The actual existing rail cannons would penetrate no more than 100'.
Weapons can fire beyond their range increment, so there really is no basis for this ruling.
Just because you ignore an objects hardness does not mean that you ignore its hit points. No. Your adamantine bullet does not pass through 100 feet of rock.
Of course it does.
This weapon fires a projectile in a straight line that pierces through multiple creatures or obstacles. When attacking with such a weapon, make a single attack roll and compare it to the relevant Armor Class of all creatures and objects in a line extending to the weapon’s listed range increment. Roll damage only once. The weapon hits all targets with an AC equal to or lower than the attack roll. However, if an attack fails to damage a creature or obstacle hit in the line (typically due to damage reduction or hardness), the path is stopped and the attack doesn’t damage creatures farther away. A line weapon can’t damage targets beyond its listed range. If you score a critical hit, that effect applies only to the first target hit in the line, and you roll the critical damage separately. If multiple creatures are equally close, you choose which one takes the effects of the critical hit. A line weapon doesn’t benefit from feats or abilities that increase the damage of a single attack (such as the operative’s trick attack).
If material within a Line weapon's listed range has Hardness less than the damage dealt, it goes through, up to the limit of its range increment. 90' of Hardness 15 rock between you and a target immediately adjacent on the other side? If your plasma line weapon rolls 16 points of damage, you penetrate through and hit the target on the other side if you beat its AC. Using a tactical rail cannon (1d10) with adamantine bullets? Any amount of damage pierces through to the other side.
The only materials that an adamantine bullet would not penetrate are starship doors/walls/bulkheads, all of which have hardness 30+.
You're trying to rules lawyer the hell out of the rules for things there are not explicit rules for. And then use that ruling as justification for shennanigans
No.
I'm not rules lawyering anything. The first thing I posted was a question as to whether line weapons, if they can damage an intervening cover item, could then continue their line attack. Consensus answered that.
You're the person bringing up this weird 'Hit Points matter to a line weapon' argument that doesn't even make any sense.
You don't have line of effect.
Its not remotely weird that if you take a flame thrower to a wooden door and it hurts (but does not destroy) the door that the door is still there blocking your way.
You're trying to rules lawyer the hell out of the rules for things there are not explicit rules for. And then use that ruling as
No.
This is an explicit rule. Any number of stacked items with a hardness below 30 are penetrated by an adamantine bullet fired from a rail cannon until the bullet has traveled 60-100' (depending on the item level).
Five level 17 Hover Artillery vehicles parked side to side? (20' wide, Hardness 25). It penetrates and damages each.
100 1' thicknesses of 15 hardness stone, or 10 10' thicknesses of 15 hardness stone, or 1 100' thickness of 15 hardness stone? It penetrates all of them.
The only weird thing about ballistic line weapons is that they stop after the first increment (in open air), not that they work within that line increment. Railguns with hypersonic slugs are under development, and tungsten "rods from god" are a decades old thought experiment. For a plasma line weapon I can at least envision it as a steady flamethrower like beam that cuts only as far as the increment.
I'm not rules lawyering anything. The first thing I posted was a question as to whether line weapons, if they can damage an intervening cover item, could then continue their line attack. Consensus answered that.
You're the person bringing up this weird 'Hit Points matter to a line weapon' argument that doesn't even make any sense.
You don't have line of effect.
Its not remotely weird that if you take a flame thrower to a wooden door and it hurts (but does not destroy) the door that the door is still there blocking your way.
Line weapons create line of effect. That's their entire point, nothing blocks them unless they have DR/hardness that is higher than their damage. A starfinder flamethrower with the line quality fires a focused hot jet that cuts a hole through that door if it beats its hardness. It does not, however, destroy the door (unless it does more damage than the door's HP). It is, in fact, still blocking you way. But if you fire at the door and someone is standing behind it, they have cover and concealment but still risk getting hit.
Line weapons do not create line of effect. They need line of effect to work, just like anything else.
Line weapons do not create line of effect. They need line of effect to work, just like anything else.
Line weapon -> A B C D E
1. Line weapon fires at target A, to which it has line of effect.
2. Line weapon penetrates target A, and now has line of effect to object B.
3. Line weapon penetrates target B, and now has line of effect to object C.
Etc.
I think your conceptual hang up here is that you're conflating Line quality weapons with a line AOE, like an Arcing Surge spell. They're different. The Arcing Surge would indeed be stopped by a door if it didn't defeat its HP.
True or false: A line weapon that does more than 30 points of damage penetrates a Wall of Force and attacks and damages something on the other side?
True or false, this penetrating attack destroys the Wall of Force, even though it didn't do 300 HP damage?
I am willing to acknowledge that this behavior seems ridiculous on "realism" grounds for the flame, electricity, and cold damage line weapons. But it very much does not for the plasma and projectile ones. For the others, I blame magical future tech that somehow focuses the flame/electricity/cold beam to a very sharp and penetrating beam.
True or false: A line weapon that does more than 30 points of damage penetrates a Wall of Force and attacks and damages something on the other side?
** spoiler omitted **
This is false. Wall of force is still there and it is still blocking line of effect. Without line of effect you cannot hurt anything on the other side
The ability to damage something is NOT the ability to go completely through it
This is false. Wall of force is still there and it is still blocking line of effect. Without line of effect you cannot hurt anything on the other sideTrue or false: A line weapon that does more than 30 points of damage penetrates a Wall of Force and attacks and damages something on the other side?
** spoiler omitted **
Still wrong.
If a weapon, spell, ability, or item requires an attack roll and has a range measured in feet, it normally requires that you (or whoever or whatever is using the ability) have a line of effect to the target to be effective (subject to GM discretion). A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what an attack or ability can affect. A line of effect is blocked by a solid barrier that can stop the effect in question such as a wall, for most effects), but it is not blocked by purely visual restrictions (such as smoke or darkness). You cannot have line of effect that exceeds planetary range, unless otherwise indicated.
You must have a clear line of effect to any creature or object you wish to target or to any space in which you wish to create an effect without an area. For effects with an area, you must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of the effect. An effect that is a burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation affects only an area, creature, or object within line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, the center point of a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin). [Xenocrat's note: You'll see that a line effect is not mentioned here.] For definitions of these specific terms, see Area on page 268.
If you have a line of effect to some of a target’s space but not all of it, the target has cover (see pages 253–254 for more information about cover). Additionally, an otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it may grant cover rather than total cover against an effect, at the GM’s discretion.
1. A line of effect is blocked by a solid barrier IF it can stop the effect in question. Per the rules for a Line weapon, an object (and walls/bulkheads/doors are objects) cannot stop a line weapon if it rolls damage higher than the objects Hardness.
2. A line is a 5' wide (10' on the Wide Line weapons introduced in Armory) area of effect that extends to its range. For line weapons, that range is its range increment. Initially, you only need a clear line of effect to the point of origin of the effect. For a line weapon, that point of origin is the first 5' square you aim in. AOEs that are NOT lines, such as burst, cone, cylinders, and emanations, require additional line of effect to each target/creature in their AOE. Lines do not.
This is why an Arcing Surge isn't stopped by the first 5' wide target it hits, and continues on to hit others. It also would not be stopped by your wooden door if it beat its HP, because it is not limited like the other forms of AOE. A Line weapon does one better than a line spell AOE, because it has the special ability to pierce (but not destroy) objects (including walls) that have hardness less than their damage dealt.
You are being entirely circular. You are assuming that an object cannot stop an effect because the effect can damage the object to justify the idea that the effect is not stopped.
Lines do not.
Citation required. No. What you're quoting does not say this.
You are being entirely circular. You are assuming that an object cannot stop an effect because the effect can damage the object to justify the idea that the effect is not stopped.
Lines do not.Citation required. No. What you're quoting does not say this.
It lists all the types of AOEs that work this way. It excludes lines.
I'm genuinely sorry for you that you aren't able to understand this. I'm out.
Total Cover
If an enemy doesn’t have line of effect to you, you have total cover from the enemy. A creature can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Your line attack requires an attack roll. They don't have line of effect, which they need.
Total Cover
If an enemy doesn’t have line of effect to you, you have total cover from the enemy. A creature can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Your line attack requires an attack roll. They don't have line of effect, which they need.
Again, I'm very sorry that you're unable to follow this.
The total cover rules are irrelevant, because Line weapon attacks do have line of effect to every square they target, provided their damage exceeds the hardness/DR of every creature/object in the way.
The problem isn't that i don't follow you. The problem is that one argument from one snippet of the rules that CAN say what you're saying does not necessarily say what you're saying. Furthermore what you're saying is directly contradicted elsewhere by other rules.
The rules are not some perfect Aristotelian construct where you can argue with perfect logic from one piece of information. You have to look at all of the rules.
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I lean more towards BNW's interpretation, and I disagree with how selective the bolding was done above, but I was just discussing a similar real-game instance during a Con recently.
How would you both rule this?
X|_|Y
X = PC with whatever that new scope is that can see into the ethereal plane.
Y = Enemy
A hallway and two stone walls of indeterminate thickness are between the two. PC has an 8th level penetrating weapon (which thusly ignores the hardness of the stone). PC can see the Enemy.
Now obviously the Enemy will likely react after getting shot once, but until the two actually engage one another, can't the PC just keep attacking?
Ignoring the hardness of the stone is not the same as ignoring the stone entirely. The wall still exists as long as it has hit points and still blocks line of effect. The rules don't have a very good resolution for breaking through a smaller than 5 foot section to hurt something on the other side.
The problem isn't that i don't follow you. The problem is that one argument from one snippet of the rules that CAN say what you're saying does not necessarily say what you're saying. Furthermore what you're saying is directly contradicted elsewhere by other rules.The rules are not some perfect Aristotelian construct where you can argue with perfect logic from one piece of information. You have to look at all of the rules.
I only have to look at the most specific rules (what Line weapons say they can do) and discover that, amazingly enough, they can do what they say they can do. But I've tried to help you see that the general lines of effect rules don't even stop regular line AOE attacks they way you think they do. The only difference is that a Line weapon fired through a door only has to beat its hardness to hit targets on teh other side, where a line spell aimed through a door has to actually destroy the door's HP to hurt targets on the other side. Burst weapons and burst spells, by contrast, cannot hurt something on the other side of a door even if they deal enough damage to destroy it and the other side is within their radius.
So, say that each wall had... 20 hit points.
How much damage would need to be done with said penetrating weapon in order to reach the Enemy?
20 per wall? 40 to punch through both? Or something else?
A Penetrating weapon doesn't penetrate objects, unlike a Line weapon. It just reduces the hardness to make it easier to damage and destroy them. You'd still have to shoot the wall repeatedly to destroy a segment.
The hardness and HP for 10x10' wall segments is at this link.
The best shoot through walls ability remains the Technomancer's Phased Shot magic hack, which makes a 14th level Technomancer an invulnerable assassin god against any target in an urban area who can't get a Wall of Force between him and the shooter, change his appearance (I imagine important people have Disguise Self bodyguards standing by in case they're targeted by this), or you can break range (Dimension Door a couple of times or Teleport).
Wait wait... there's a Line weapon with adamantine ammo? So if I put a Continuous fusion on it, do I just get solid adamantine rods blocking off the line until next turn? Hmmm... this could be interesting.
The Rail Cannon is a projectile weapon (so you can use special bullet materials) with the Line quality published in Armory.
I only have to look at the most specific rules (what Line weapons say they can do) and discover that, amazingly enough, they can do what they say they can do.
Line weapons do not say that they do what they say you're doing.
You are interpreting what they do from a rather convoluted argument about their absence of the word line from one sentence, when the rest of the paragraph would say no such thing.
The reason that line is ommited is not because it shoots through walls, but because for a line you and the line are the same point of origin whereas with the other effects they can be different.
The only difference is that a Line weapon fired through a door only has to beat its hardness to hit targets on teh other side
And yet no rule uses the words hardness and line together. Kind of weird for a rule that important isn't it?
Burst weapons and burst spells, by contrast, cannot hurt something on the other side of a door even if they deal enough damage to destroy it and the other side is within their radius.
Burst weapons require line of effect from their point of origin, not from you. This is because bursts can go off around corners from the person using them: throwing a grenade down a hall to hit people in the hat of a T intersection that you have no line of effect to for but hte grenade does example.
The only difference is that a Line weapon fired through a door only has to beat its hardness to hit targets on teh other side
And yet no rule uses the words hardness and line together. Kind of weird for a rule that important isn't it?
Oh, I get it, you're just responding without reading my posts. So maybe that's the issue rather than an inability to understand the rules. Here, just in case you want to avoid writing things that have already been refuted.
The very rule that defines what these weapons can do uses the words line and hardness together. Maybe go back and actually read the thread and the quoted rules? I gave you page numbers and everything if you want original sources.
Okay i worded that very badly. My bad.
You're still not responding to the point though. Your entire argument is based on the absence of the word line when the rules are talking about having an effect go from a point of origin rather than from the attacker, which is ommited because lines start at the attacker and thus not relevant to point of origin. The rules don't say that line weapons do what you're saying as long as they can overcome hardness.
Lines are stopped by hardness does not mean that lines keep going through anythinig but hardness.
you have a 50 foot wide sequoia tree with hardness 5. you're trying to tell me that as long as you can do 6 points of damage you shoot through the entire thing. That is more than a little weird. If your interpretation of the rules is that weird, its not usually the rules.
Okay i worded that very badly. My bad.
You're still not responding to the point though. Your entire argument is based on the absence of the word line when the rules are talking about having an effect go from a point of origin rather than from the attacker, which is ommited because lines start at the attacker and thus not relevant to point of origin.
Most traditional line effects do not start at the attacker - see Arcing Surge (nee Lightning Bolt) spell. This is saying that if you cast a lightning bolt you need line of effect to the point where that bolt starts, but you do not need it from that origination point to the end.
[
Most traditional line effects do not start at the attacker - see Arcing Surge (nee Lightning Bolt) spell. This is saying that if you cast a lightning bolt you need line of effect to the point where that bolt starts, but you do not need it from that origination point to the end.
You cause an electrical device in your possession to surge in power and unleash a line of electricity from the massive oversurge. This deals 10d6 electricity damage to all creatures and objects in the area.
To the map, you and your datapad are the same spot.
This is for spells not weapons but should be taken into consideration
Line
A line-shaped effect extends away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped effect applies to all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
Xenocrat is right ... and i don't even know how to explain it better ....i would say ..."read line weapon" ..but he posted it already ....and as far as I can tell you get no cover against it because the bullet goes right threw and does full damage to the next thing in line, but you would get concealment and most likely total concealment if we are talking a wall and very little gets around total concealment miss chance
(thistledow).. good catch and kinda a problem as written .....not sure on that yet
This is why an Arcing Surge isn't stopped by the first 5' wide target it hits, and continues on to hit others. It also would not be stopped by your wooden door if it beat its HP
But you're arguing line weapons only need to beat hardness. Those are vastly different things.
Cars stop when they hit a telephone pole
A mountain is not a telephone pole
Therefore cars do not stop when they hit mountains.
Line weapons stop when they hit something that they fail to damage
Therefore line weapons don't stop when they hit something they damage.
The underlying logic there is the same, and it doesn't work. Line weapons make far, far more sense when stopping at a character or item they can't damage is read as an imposition on how a line works, not reading the inverse (affirming the consequent?)to grant it a superpower. The alternative is a 6th level character with a flame thrower can just melt right through 30 feet of stone.
Right, and for the same reason only laser and projectile weapons work in vacuum.
Adamantine projectile and plasma line weapons are the laser/projectile weapons here - they make sense, the others don’t, but the rules allow them all.
And the answer is the same as sonic weapons in vacuum - the rules don’t distinguish, space magic, etc.
The rules for line effects in general are hazy, but the ruling on line weapons is quite clear. If the hardness or DR stops the damage, the effect is stopped. Otherwise it goes all the way to the end of the range increment of the weapon.
It is absolutely not clear that that is the case.
If the hardness or DR stops the damage, the effect is stopped. Otherwise it goes all the way to the end of the range increment of the weapon.
one of these does not demand that the other is true unconditionally.
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Based on my quick and dirty reading of the rules, line weapons can shoot through cover provided they get past DR/hardness and keep on going to their first full range increment. They do not need to destroy the cover first to keep progressing, nor do they ignore the cover (that is, targets behind the cover still get their cover bonuses).
I do not believe that this will work in situations where you do not have line of effect (such as against a target with total cover). You simply can't make attacks against such targets.
Rules References
Line (Weapon Special Property)
This weapon fires a projectile in a straight line that pierces through multiple creatures or obstacles. When attacking with such a weapon, make a single attack roll and compare it to the relevant Armor Class of all creatures and objects in a line extending to the weapon’s listed range increment. Roll damage only once. The weapon hits all targets with an AC equal to or lower than the attack roll. However, if an attack fails to damage a creature or obstacle hit in the line (typically due to damage reduction or hardness), the path is stopped and the attack doesn’t damage creatures farther away. A line weapon can’t damage targets beyond its listed range. If you score a critical hit, that effect applies only to the first target hit in the line, and you roll the critical damage separately. If multiple creatures are equally close, you choose which one takes the effects of the critical hit. A line weapon doesn’t benefit from feats or abilities that increase the damage of a single attack (such as the operative’s trick attack).
Adamantine Alloy (Special Materials)
Adamantine is a starmetal, one of several valuable metals mined from asteroids and planets throughout the universe. Pure adamantine is exceedingly rare and expensive, so weapons using adamantine are always made of an adamantine alloy. Weapons or ammunition fashioned from adamantine alloy overcome the damage reduction of creatures with DR/adamantine, such as many magical constructs, and have a natural ability to ignore hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 30 (see Breaking Objects on page 409). Weapons and ammunition without metal parts can’t be made from adamantine alloy.
Cover (Combat Modifiers)
Cover does not necessarily block precise senses, but it does make it more difficult for enemies to hit you. To determine whether your target has cover from your attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover. Cover grants you a +4 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks that originate from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and negate these bonuses.
Total Cover (Combat Modifiers)
If an enemy doesn’t have line of effect to you (see page 271), you have total cover from the enemy. A creature can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Line (Tactical Rules; Defining Effects)
A line-shaped effect extends away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect (see page 271). A line-shaped effect applies to all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
Line of Effect (Tactical Rules; Defining Effects)
If a weapon, spell, ability, or item requires an attack roll and has a range measured in feet, it normally requires that you (or whoever or whatever is using the ability) have a line of effect to the target to be effective (subject to GM discretion). A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what an attack or ability can affect. A line of effect is blocked by a solid barrier that can stop the effect in question (such as a wall, for most effects), but it is not blocked by purely visual restrictions (such as smoke or darkness). You cannot have line of effect that exceeds planetary range, unless otherwise indicated.You must have a clear line of effect to any creature or object you wish to target or to any space in which you wish to create an effect without an area. For effects with an area, you must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of the effect. An effect that is a burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation affects only an area, creature, or object within line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, the center point of a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
For definitions of these specific terms, see Area on page 268. If you have a line of effect to some of a target’s space but not all of it, the target has cover (see pages 253–254 for more information about cover). Additionally, an otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it may grant cover rather than total cover against an effect, at the GM’s discretion.