Lance's and Mounted Combat

[Rameth]

Are Lances 2 handed even when on a mount? They are usually held with 1 hand and a shield in the other, bracing the weapon against the mount. If I remember in P1E it worked that way, is it the same in P2E?

[Snickersnax]

There doesn't appear to be a one-handed lance option while mounted. I hope this gets an errata.

[Sober Caydenite]

I would also like to see this corrected. Unless the new standard for the Golarion lance is a two-handed overhand stab like the Sioux used to take down bison, I don't see how the traditionally European-style heavy cavalry of Mendev, or the Hellknights, or the Knights of Ozzem, function with a two-handed lance. Mounted combat is already an uphill battle for even marginal effectiveness, with the actions required to control a mount and the Charge ability's unexciting benefit, why deprive the character of the ability to spend yet another action on raising a shield?

Until a paladin takes Imposing Destrier at level 10, she can't even do a regular ride-by attack without giving up the ability to raise a shield. Assuming the Ride feat (without it, using a lance is pretty much impossible), she can Command her mount to Stride, then make a single lance attack, then Command the mount to Stride again. Its not exactly game-breaking to give the rider the option to raise a shield if they actually decide to stay put.

Considering that a lance is such a specialized weapon already, in the likely event that a cavalry-type character picks up a magical weapon, they will always be better of using a +! longsword, or even a +1 dagger, or a mundane lance because the Charge ability offers absolutely nothing to recommend a lance over literally any other weapon on horseback. Even a mundane glaive is better, as Forceful is probably going to be more generally useful than Charge.

[Twilight_Arcanum]

Sober Caydenite wrote:

Until a paladin takes Imposing Destrier at level 10, she can't even do a regular ride-by attack without giving up the ability to raise a shield. Assuming the Ride feat (without it, using a lance is pretty much impossible), she can Command her mount to Stride, then make a single lance attack, then Command the mount to Stride again. Its not exactly game-breaking to give the rider the option to raise a shield if they actually decide to stay put.

Imposing Destrier leads me to believe you are talking about the paladin using an animal companion. If so you are completely wrong as Animal Companions fall under the category of "minion". When you command a minion they get two actions. Therefore a paladin could certain Command their horse, have their horse move, make a lance strike, move their horse again, and finally have a third action to do whatever with. Though probably not raise a shield as they still need both hands on the Lance

Sober Caydenite wrote:

Considering that a lance is such a specialized weapon already, in the likely event that a cavalry-type character picks up a magical weapon, they will always be better of using a +! longsword, or even a +1 dagger, or a mundane lance because the Charge ability offers absolutely nothing to recommend a lance over literally any other weapon on horseback. Even a mundane glaive is better, as Forceful is probably going to be more generally useful than Charge.

You are going to want to re-read Charge again. It gives the lance +1 damage PER DIE. This means that after moving 10 feet the lance is on average similar to a d10 weapon. The horse work together Gallop gives any weapon charge and doubles the damage from charge if a weapon already has the ability. So in certain situations the lance average damage is comparable to a d12 with it's maximum damage comparable to that of a d10 weapon while also being more likely

[Sober Caydenite]

Good point regarding the Minion trait, I'd misread that as the minion having two actions total, each of which had to be triggered individually. That being said, anyone on a regular horse does have the problem I'd mentioned.

Regarding the Charge trait, my point was that given the choice between a magic weapon that is generally useful, like a longsword, or one that is provisionally useful, like a lance, it makes more sense to go with the former. Thus, a character with a +1 longsword and a mundane lance has no reason at all to use the lance, since 2d8 is better than 1d8+1, and as the rules currently stand, a mounted PC with a lance can't use a shield, and still only has 5' reach (granted, a Small character on a Medium mount does seem able to benefit from the lance's reach).

[Rameth]

I was specifically asking for a Fighter/Cavalier character I was making. At 12th Lvl he's doing 4d8+13 on a "charging" hit and 6d8+13 on a power attack charge. Also on a Crit he will do 14d8+26 from charging, power attacking and deadly. Pretty hefty damage.

But yes if I power attack then I can't ride away so I was wondering about a shield. It seems for now no shield for me. But this will be several weeks from now so hopefully will see an errata on it.

[Penn]

Under the Cleric class, Controlling Undead sidebar:
"A minion acts on your turn in combat when you spend an action to issue it verbal commands (this action has the concentrate trait)."
This seems to be meant to apply to all minions, and it also seems to say that your minion takes both actions when you command them, they can't split them up. If so this makes mounted charges annoying, no moving both before and afterwards.

[Doktor Weasel]

The lance totally needs a one-handed couched option. It's the iconic knightly cavalry charge maneuver. It's one of the defining characteristics of high and late medieval warfare. Making it not an option just makes no sense.

I'd kind of like to see the damage die of lances moved to d10, but I suppose a d8 + charge might be acceptable if it's able to be used one handed. And a one handed d10 would break the current rules for weapon damage. I also hadn't caught that work together benefit from a horse's gallop, which does help.

[thistledown]

I might be parsing the charge tag wrong. Even with a +1 weapon, that's still only 2dx, so the entire mounted lance charge cycle just adds +2 static damage? Disappointingly small.