Grippli Martial concept flesh out


Advice


Hello Adventurers,

I'm currently working on a few character concepts to have on hand and ready to go for when I play with a group, and this one is directed as a Grippli concept.

I apologize for the wall of text.

By no means is this character set in stone or in use for a current game, as the character is one of many options to chose from to be played.

The character originally was derived from Frog in Chrono Trigger, I imagined a two handed sword welder and helped the party by giving them teamwork feats.

I did this as a Drill Sergeant archetype fighter at first.

When I tried to do this, the first party I was accepted into and played comprised of:

- An archer focused Human Fighter
- Melee focused (Rapier) Goblin Investigator
- Archer focused Tiefling Inquisitor that liked to constantly intimidate and shaken foes (and set them on fire)

The group didn't last long after a few sessions but I discovered that my idea of giving the party members Paired Opportunists and outflank really went to waste (lack of melee focus) and I didn't do too much on the front lines (even when I had the body guard feat).

Promptly after that I tossed that build out the window and started working on something else.

Here is the new concept

If my damage wasn't going to be spectacular hit for hit, I figured maybe a better route would be to just dish out as many attacks as possible. Perhaps take advantage of AoO's and even try to force them.

I saw Lore Warden and a sibling brought up Riptide attack.

Riptide Attack:

Prerequisites: Improved Drag, Improved Trip, worshiper of Gozreh.

Benefit: Whenever you succeed at a trip combat maneuver, you can automatically attempt a drag combat maneuver against your tripped target as a swift action.

My thought process was to try tripping foes as well in conjunction of my attacks.

Further drafting I tried to see about maybe using a buckler and utilize "Unhindering Shield" and "Upsetting shield style" line, perhaps I could be defensive and use a reach weapon and push back opponents if trips failed.

Unhindering Shield (Combat, Shield Mastery):

Prerequisites: Shield Focus, base attack bonus +6 or fighter level 4th, proficiency with bucklers.

Benefit: You still gain a buckler’s bonus to AC even if you use your shield hand for some other purpose. When you wield a buckler, your shield hand is considered free for the purposes of casting spells, wielding weapons, and using any other abilities that require you to have a free hand or interact with your shield, such as the swashbuckler’s precise strike deed or the Weapon Finesse feat.

Special: A monk with this feat is not considered to be using a shield for the purposes of his AC bonus, fast movement, or flurry of blows.

Upsetting Shield Style (Combat, Style):

Prerequisites: Dex 13, proficiency with bucklers.

Benefit: You can shield bash with a buckler as if it were a light shield, and you can use the buckler in conjunction with any feats or abilities that normally apply to light shields. While using this style, whenever you successfully deal damage to an opponent with a shield bash using your buckler, that opponent takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made against you until the start of your next turn.

After some numerous attempts to juggle around feat allocation, assuming a level one start this is as far as I've gotten...

Grippli Fighter:

20 Point buy
Level 1 start
Expecting a game to end, close to around level 11

Level 1 Lore Warden (Fighter Archetype)
Chaotic Good
HP: 12 (10 + 2 CON)
STR: 12 [1]
DEX: 17 [3]
CON: 14 [2]
INT: 13 [1]
WIS: 12 [1]
CHA: 10 [0]

Weapon: Either a Scythe[?], Falcata, Falchion, Great sword, Guisarme or Heavy Flail?

Lvl 1: Weapon Finesse
Lvl 1 Fighter BONUS: Step Up
Lvl 2 Fighter BONUS: Combat Reflexes ;
- C.Expertise [Class FREE feat]

Lvl 3: Improved trip
Lvl 4: Following Step
Lvl 5: Advanced Weapon Training feat [Fighter's Finesse]

- Lvl 6 Bloodrager Dip [Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy] (Aquatic or Aberrant bloodline): IUS feat

Clvl 6: 5 Fighter/1 Bloodrager

Lvl 7: Greater Trip
Lvl 7 Fighter BONUS: Step up and Strike

Lvl 9: Weapon Spec / Poised Bearing
Lvl 9 Fighter BONUS: Wep Focus / Armor Focus

Lvl 11: AWT [???]
Lvl 11 Fighter BONUS: ???

For reference:

Poised Bearing (Armor Mastery, Combat):

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6 or fighter level 4th, armor training class feature, proficiency with medium or heavy armor.

Benefit: You treat your size as one category larger for the purposes of determining the size of creatures against which you can attempt bull rush, dragAPG, overrun, and trip combat maneuvers.

Imposing Bearing (Armor Mastery, Combat):

Prerequisites: Poised Bearing, base attack bonus +11 or fighter level 8th, armor training class feature, proficiency with heavy armor.

Benefit: You treat your size as two categories larger for the purposes of determining the size of creatures against which you can attempt bull rush, dragAPG, overrun, and trip combat maneuvers.

Armor Focus (Combat):

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, proficiency with selected armor.

Benefit: Select one type of armor, such as chain shirt or splint mail. The AC bonus granted by the selected armor increases by 1.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of armor. The Armor Focus feat counts as the armor training class feature for the purpose of armor mastery feat prerequisites and determines what types of armor you can use with armor mastery feats.

I wanted to dip into Mouser for underfoot assault but the issue I see with running that was if I wanted to run as a Lore Warden I wouldn't have the armor proficiency (hence the bloodrager dip) unless I just omit Lore Warden and go a regular fighter (gain back armor training). My worry was too many dips and I botch the progression to survive and be meaningful as I level with the party.

Trying to use a two handed weapon and even shield bash (with a buckler) seemed pretty feat intensive and I wasn't even sure it was possible after researching and seeing all the discussions involved around the subject of TWF/Two-handing/shield bashing/Armor spikes.

A fun combination I was thinking of was the Crashing wave style, so I'll reference it here but couldn't seem to find a way to make it work.

Crashing Wave Style (Combat, Style):

You relentlessly push your enemies around, as the sea moves those within and upon it against their will.

Prerequisites: Wis 13, Improved Drag, Improved Reposition, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: When you successfully drag or reposition an opponent while using this style, at any point during the dragging or repositioning of the opponent, you can move 5 feet as an immediate action, including moving into a square previously occupied by the opponent, even if you have already taken a move action this round. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Crashing Wave Buffet (Combat):

You disorient your opponents by pushing and pounding them mercilessly, just like how the sea beats relentlessly against the rocks.

Prerequisites: Wis 15, Crashing Wave Style, Improved Drag, Improved Reposition, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When dragging or repositioning an opponent, you use your full body to knock your opponent around like a constant wave. At the end of the drag or reposition maneuver, your opponent must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + half your character level + your Wisdom modifier + 2 for every 5 feet you drag or reposition your opponent). On a failed save, your opponent becomes disorientated from the movement and takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, and Dexterity-based skill checks until the end of its next turn.

Crashing Wave Fist (Combat):

In addition to simply moving it, you are able to strike your enemy while pushing it around.

Prerequisites: Wis 15, Crashing Wave Buffet, Crashing Wave Style, Improved Drag, Improved Reposition, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9.

Benefit: When dragging or repositioning an opponent, at any point during the movement, you can make one unarmed attack against the opponent using your highest attack bonus. You can make one additional attack for every 5 feet you drag or reposition the opponent beyond the first 5 feet. You take a cumulative –5 penalty on each additional attack made in this way.

I again apologize for the mess that is the wall of text.

Is there anyone with some insight and ideas on this that may want to take a crack at the direction of the concept build?

Offensive vs. Defensive? etc


Khell DarkWolf wrote:
Is there anyone with some insight and ideas on this that may want to take a crack at the direction of the concept build?

Well, what direction do you want to take?

You began with a support build, granting teamwork feats to allies. Then you went straight to combat maneuvers, leaving most of the original concept behind.

Also, Weapon Finesse can only be used with Light Weapons, and certain exotic weapons. Neither of the weapons you listed would allow you to use your dexterity to attack.


Wonderstell wrote:


Well, what direction do you want to take?
You began with a support build, granting teamwork feats to allies. Then you went straight to combat maneuvers, leaving most of the original concept behind.

Well, I pretty much don't want to juggle multiple instances of book keeping trying to keep track of who or what conditional circumstances my allies can and can't do. So I'm leaving the teamwork feats completely behind for sure.

As for direction.

First: I want to go down the path of using combat maneuvers to disrupt and help control the flow of encounters when it comes up. Or at least incur debuffs/conditions to help everyone out.

Second: I'm split between being defensive or going more offensive, hence I wanted to see what others suggested on either of these two paths to take the character.

The current build I have listed in the OP is my draft of doing this but going down an offensive role for the character trying to do it with optimizing damage to stay as relevant as possible.

Particularly a focus on trying to force Attacks of Opportunity in conjunction with the trips.

Third: I wanted to address a back up means to deal with things such as flying creatures and what not since the current iteration of the character is very martial melee. I just don't quite know how to deal with this.

Example would be instead of throwing tanglefoot bags, I could be an alchemist and toss Frost bombs at aerial opponents threatening the group by entangling them to force them to fall or what have you.

Fourth: It isn't listed but more of just a personal preference as what I often find in groups I encounter. The characters I bring out usually almost always end up having to invest more into skills and skill points than normal since other players don't do it...

The character I made originally actually had to do a lot of the diplomacy with the goblin because the inquisitor was ALL invested in intimidating and pissing off the NPC villagers and guards (mind you I had taken a drawback trait and had a dumped CHA at the time with a +2 INT mod).

So with that said with my experience, its entirely plausible that I should be looking at a different class that has more base skills of 4+INT or higher, either that or I just pour a lot more into INT score.

I'm not entirely married to the combat maneuvers theme, I just thought it would be cool to try.

Wonderstell wrote:


Also, Weapon Finesse can only be used with Light Weapons, and certain exotic weapons. Neither of the weapons you listed would allow you to use your dexterity to attack.

Aye I know Weapon Finesse works on light weapons, but I was under the impression that if I had Fighter's Finesse tied to the weapon group that it would fix this and allow me to utilize it.

Was there something I missed?

Fighter's Finesse (Ex):

The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse). The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option.

This was planned at the earliest of level 5 with the Advanced weapon training feat.

Advanced Weapon Training (Combat):

Prerequisite(s): Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.

Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.

Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 5 fighter levels.

Special: Fighters that have the weapon master archetype can select this feat beginning at 4th level. The benefits of a weapon master’s advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can’t select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option. A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.

On another note

I really do try to be a "roleplayer" and a not "ROLL"player.

But my last group that I tried this character with really did make me feel inadequate and punished in my choice of trying to "roleplay" him out since his contributions as a whole were negligible.

If anything, I just want to contribute to the group while fitting the shoes of the character. Have my cake and eat it too right?

I found my original character sheet for that group, so I'll go ahead and show it to compare if you or anyone else was interested:

Mythweavers sheet

Grand Lodge

I'd look into the Vanguard archetype for the slayer. You get Studied Target, slayer talents, and tactician. imo, more versatility than the Drill Sergeant archetype.

if you feel like the party won't benefit from your feats, you could always for Inquisitor- w00t Solo Tactics.

also, look at party composition when choose teamwork feats. that last team may have benefited more from Precise Strike and Escape Route.


Khell DarkWolf wrote:

Aye I know Weapon Finesse works on light weapons, but I was under the impression that if I had Fighter's Finesse tied to the weapon group that it would fix this and allow me to utilize it.

Was there something I missed?

No, no, you're completely right.

I just lost it in the sea of information, sorry.

Lv 6 maneuver Grippli:
Str 10, Dex 18+1, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
(lv 4 increase in dex)

Racial Traits:
Camouflage
Princely (+2 to Diplomacy/Intimidate)
Darkvision 60 ft

Traits:
Barbarian of the Society (Prereq of being a barbarian, but was written before the Bloodrager class came out)
Heirloom Weapon (+1 to Attacks of Opportunity with the Scimitar)

Class levels and Feats:
[Brawler 1] 1. Weapon Finesse, Martial Flexibility

[Brawler 2] 2. Dervish Dance (B), Brawler's Flurry

[Urban Bloodrager 1] 3. Two-Weapon Defense, Familiar

[Vampire Hunter 1] 4. Two-Weapon Trick: Arm Bind (and Off-Hand Opportunity)

[Drill Sergeant 1] 5. Combat Reflexes, Disarm Partner (B)

[Drill Sergeant 2] 6. Paired Opportunist (B), Improved Disarm Partner (B)

Familiar: Valet, Pig

Diplomacy (lv 6): +12

What this all means:
Improved Disarm Partner + Paired Opportunist: Whenever you fail a disarm attempt, your Pig grants you an Attack of Opportunity with a +4 to Attack. If this AoO hits, you get a free Disarm maneuver.

Arm Bind: You may make disarm attempts on opponents that doesn't carry weapons.

Equipment:
Tekko-Kagi: A buckler that allows you to make disarm attempts without provoking AoO's. Since it has the Disarm quality, it also grants you +2 to this check.
And you may benefit from Dervish Dance since it doesn't occupy your hand.

Scimitar: Pay for someone to cast Masterwork Transformation on it.

Banded Mail Barding: +7 to your pig's AC. Coupled with Total Defense it should have 27 AC.

Class Abilities:
Brawler's Proficiencies, Brawler's Flurry: Proficient with all close weapons, and can flurry with them.

Martial Flexibility: Gain any combat feat for 1 minute. Four uses per day. Dedicated Adversary (+2 A/D) is always a good choice.

Controlled Bloodrage: 9 rounds, +4 to Dexterity

1st Bloodline Ability: Can be traded for a familiar, and you'll want the Valet archetype which allows your familiar to share your teamwork feats.

Tactician: Give your allies Paired Opportunist for 4 rounds. One use per day. (If your allies want to benefit every combat, then ask them to take Paired Opportunist themselves.)

After level 6
No joke, even more multiclassing. I'd probably settle for the Vigilante (Avenger) for the Shield of Blades vigilante talent and some social tricks. Try to take the Extra Rage feat at level 7, and enchant your Scimitar with the Furious special ability.

****

Tactic:
Flurry with the Tekko-Kagi and make Disarm Attempts at BAB +4/+4/-1. Every failed disarm provokes an AoO, which you'll take with your Scimitar. This is done with a +5 to your attack, and without TWF penalties.
If your attack hits, you get another free Disarm attempt that either succeeds or provokes another Attack of Opportunity.

Or you could just make a Disarm attempt in place of the AoO, giving you up to 8 additional Disarm attempts after the first.

While Raging:
Flurry Disarm (MWK Tekko-Kagi): +12/+12/+7
Scimitar AoO (+1 magic weapon): +19 (1d4+7, 18-20/x2)
Number of Attacks of Opportunity: 5 + 1 (Off-hand Opportunity) + 2 (Bloodrage)

Disclaimer:
Normally, failing a disarm attempt by more than 10 makes you drop your weapon. But since the Tekko-Kagi is strapped to your forearm, this shouldn't happen.
If your opponent has arms, you can disarm it. But this combo won't work against gelatinous cubes and the like.


Selvaxri wrote:

I'd look into the Vanguard archetype for the slayer. You get Studied Target, slayer talents, and tactician. imo, more versatility than the Drill Sergeant archetype.

if you feel like the party won't benefit from your feats, you could always for Inquisitor- w00t Solo Tactics.

also, look at party composition when choose teamwork feats. that last team may have benefited more from Precise Strike and Escape Route.

I'll keep it in mind, having never played a Slayer I'll have to look over more in-depth on how the class works before working on a build.

Thank you.

Wonderstell wrote:


*snip*
Tactic:
Flurry with the Tekko-Kagi and make Disarm Attempts at BAB +4/+4/-1. Every failed disarm provokes an AoO, which you'll take with your Scimitar. This is done with a +5 to your attack, and without TWF penalties.
If your attack hits, you get another free Disarm attempt that either succeeds or provokes another Attack of Opportunity.

Or you could just make a Disarm attempt in place of the AoO, giving you up to 8 additional Disarm attempts after the first.

o,O

Now that is an interesting tactic. Thank you. ^^

The fact it has a double factor in being a success or failure yields a result was quite ingenious.

Success with two-weapon trick arm bind would tangle them (on a target arm).

Failure with paired opportunist's and Improved disarm partner with a nearby ally on the same build = more Attacks of Opportunity.

Looking around for rulings and forum posts on the Tekko-Kagi I seem be having some trouble trying to define exactly how it's item description is formulating it to be used and considered as weapon or even a buckler.

The reason for it is the Dervish Dance feat calling out for:

"You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

I'd be in the dog house if I can't prove it irrefutably to a GM that the Tekko-Kagi is not considered to be carrying a weapon or shield.

It is already in a grey area it seems, if it should even be treated as a buckler from what I saw since the discussions were if you even gained the armor check penalty and arcane spell failure as a buckler. My search-fu may have been flawed, but I still don't know what it means in the description by

Quote:
"It can be used as an offensive weapon or defensively like a buckler, or used to disarm an opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Wonderstell wrote:

Class levels and Feats:
[Brawler 1] 1. Weapon Finesse, Martial Flexibility

[Brawler 2] 2. Dervish Dance (B), Brawler's Flurry

[Urban Bloodrager 1] 3. Two-Weapon Defense, Familiar

[Vampire Hunter 1] 4. Two-Weapon Trick: Arm Bind (and Off-Hand Opportunity)

[Drill Sergeant 1] 5. Combat Reflexes, Disarm Partner (B)

[Drill Sergeant 2] 6. Paired Opportunist (B), Improved Disarm Partner (B)

Familiar: Valet, Pig

Diplomacy (lv 6): +12

Vampire Hunter was a little gem I had no knowledge of and had to do a double take on trying to find it because I was wondering why a Inquisitor [Vampire Hunter] dip when I discovered on the pfsrd that is was an actual new class!

I'm not so sure though that I want to be trudging a familiar along with me and risk its death just to depend on the build combo.

If I can convince an ally to work with me on teamwork feats I think that would be swell, but it really took me awhile trying to wrap my head around this tactic and I'd hate to have to explain it to a GM more so than some other things.

Right now I'm trying to pull it apart and see what else I can do with it which I'm totally digging a shield claw while welding a main weapon in the other hand.

Damage is something I'm wondering if its going to be showing it lacks.


Khell DarkWolf wrote:

Looking around for rulings and forum posts on the Tekko-Kagi I seem be having some trouble trying to define exactly how it's item description is formulating it to be used and considered as weapon or even a buckler.

The reason for it is the Dervish Dance feat calling out for:

"You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

I'd be in the dog house if I can't prove it irrefutably to a GM that the Tekko-Kagi is not considered to be carrying a weapon or shield.

It is already in a grey area it seems, if it should even be treated as a buckler from what I saw since the discussions were if you even gained the armor check penalty and arcane spell failure as a buckler. My search-fu may have been flawed, but I still don't know what it means in the description by

wrote:
"It can be used as an offensive weapon or defensively like a buckler, or used to disarm an opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity.

It's an odd piece of equipment, alright.

In my opinion, the Tekko-Kagi/Scimitar combo is completely legal with Dervish Dance.

I base this on the Slashing Grace FAQ which says that bucklers 'don’t occupy the hand', and can therefore be used with Slashing Grace. And if bucklers can be used with Slashing Grace, you should definitely be allowed to use a buckler with Dervish Dance.

Slashing Grace wrote:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Dervish Dance wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

So why do I believe that a ruling for the buckler would be valid for the Tekko-Kagi?

Simply because they're both strapped to the forearm, and don't occupy your hand.

Buckler wrote:
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm.
Tekko-Kagi wrote:
Also known as an iron claw, this device consists of a fanlike structure of three or more 10-inch blades secured to a sturdy handle strapped to the forearm of the off hand.


Khell DarkWolf wrote:
Damage is something I'm wondering if its going to be showing it lacks.

Yes, it was actually quite hard to make everything fit on the Grippli since it's generally considered a lackluster race.

It's more of a debuff-build than straight damage, but it's possible to hit harder if you go Str-based instead.

Str Grippli:
Str 14, Dex 15+1, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 7
(lv 4 increase in Dex)

Traits:
Berserker of the Society (Prereq of being a barbarian, but was written before the Bloodrager class came out)
Heirloom Weapon (+1 to Attacks of Opportunity with the Greatsword)

Class levels and Feats

[Bloodrager 1] 1. Extra Rage, Familiar

[Mutagenic Mauler Brawler 1] 2. Mutagen

[Mutagenic Mauler Brawler 2] 3. Two-Weapon Defense (B), Brawler's Flurry

[Vampire Hunter 1] 4. Two-Weapon Trick: Arm Bind (and Off-Hand Opportunity) (B)

[Drill Sergeant 1] 5. Combat Reflexes, Disarm Partner (B)

[Drill Sergeant 2] 6. Paired Opportunist (B), Improved Disarm Partner (B)

Relevant Class Abilities

Rage (+4 Str/Con, +2 Will, -2 AC): 15 rounds per day

Mutagen (+4 Str, -2 Int, +2 Nat AC): Standard action to activate, lasts 20 minutes.

Tactican: Standard action, once per day

Fast Movement: +10 movement (forgot this one earlier)

Brawler's Flurry

*****

While Raging+Mutagen (Str 22):
Flurry Disarm (MWK Tekko-Kagi): +12/+12/+7
AoO with Greatsword (+1 Magic Weapon, Two-Handed, penalty for buckler): +18 (1d10+10, 19-20)
Number of Attacks of Opportunity: 4 + 1 (Off-hand Opportunity)

Since the average AC of a CR 6 creature is 19, you can definitely afford to take some attack penalties. Pick up Power Attack as soon as you can.

********

Khell DarkWolf wrote:

I'm not so sure though that I want to be trudging a familiar along with me and risk its death just to depend on the build combo.

If I can convince an ally to work with me on teamwork feats I think that would be swell, but it really took me awhile trying to wrap my head around this tactic and I'd hate to have to explain it to a GM more so than some other things.

Well, you do still have one use of the Tactician ability keyed to Paired Opportunist to grant your allies. But they should really take Paired Opportunist themselves if they want to benefit every combat.

Also, that familiar will have a higher AC (27) than most of your party, and if you raise your HP with the retraining rules it could end up with more HP than your casters.


Wonderstell wrote:
Khell DarkWolf wrote:
Damage is something I'm wondering if its going to be showing it lacks.

Yes, it was actually quite hard to make everything fit on the Grippli since it's generally considered a lackluster race.

It's more of a debuff-build than straight damage, but it's possible to hit harder if you go Str-based instead.

** spoiler omitted **

I'm going to pocket the build idea as one of a few alternatives to go with the character, since I still want to see how else we can mutate it some more without the need for the familiar and teamwork feats.

Pulling it apart a bit, I thought of two builds.

Build 2:

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10
(not counting any ability score increases yet)

Traits:
TBD

Class levels and Feats:
[Brawler 1] 1. Iron Will or TWF (Two-Weapon Fighting)

[Lore Warden 1] 2. Weapon Focus [Flail] (B) ; IUS (Class Bonus)

[Lore Warden 2] 3. Weapon Adept (Brutally Weighted), Improved Trip (B), Combat Expertise (Class bonus)

[Lore Warden 3] 4. Dead Feat Level Gains Maneuver Mastery (Ex) +2 to maneuvers

[War Priest 1] 5. Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus [Tekko-Kagi] (B)

[Lore Warden 4] 6. Weapon Specialization [Flail] (B)

Continue into only Lore Warden levels...
[LW 5] 7. Greater Trip
[LW 6] 8. Modified Weapon Proficiency [Tekko-Kagi] ; Give Tekko-Kagi Versatile Design to treat as part of Flail weapon group for weapon training OR ; Improved TWF
[LW 7] 9. Iron Will or Power Attack
[LW 8] 10. Greater Weapon Focus [Flail]

Equipment:
Flail: Brutally Weighted modification
Tekko-Kagi: Versatile Design [Flail weapon group]

More focus will have to be put to using martial flexibility to get power attack or something else critically needed until I grab it in feat progression.

TWF orientated but not optimal, Flail hits make it easier to trip and the like with the weapon modification. Using Martial Flex if I really need it, I could try to grab the weapon trick feat by switching out different progressions than what was originally planned.

Build 3 is pretty gimmicky.

Build 3:

Str 14, Dex 16+2?, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
(Most Likely using Dex score increases for progression)

Traits:
TBD

Class levels and Feats:
[Brawler 1] 1. Combat Reflexes ; IUS (Class bonus)

[Brawler 2] 2. Weapon Adept (Versatile Design) (B)

[Lore Warden 1] 3. Iron Will, Weapon Focus [Flail]

[Lore Warden 2] 4. Improved Trip (B) ; Combat Expertise (Class Bonus)

[Lore Warden 3] 5. Power Attack

[Titan Mauler 1] 6. Dead feat level
[TM 2] 7. Greater Trip ; Gain Jotun Grip
[Lore Warden 4] 8. Weapon Specialization [Scythe] ; Feat Swap Weapon Focus out for a new Weapon Focus (Scythe)

Equipment:
Tekko-Kagi:
Flail: Versatile Design [Close Weapon group] ; Use until obtain Jotun grip
Scythe: Versatile Design [Close Weapon group] ; Switch to this weapon, using it one handed with the Tekko

Build 3 is more reliant on using Brawler's flurry assuming the Versatile Design mod is allowed by a GM. I'd have to grab Improved Two-weapon fighting just as well to keep the thing working, but hey I'd be able to flurry with both and interchange either of their attacks.

Posting both of these builds and looking at it....I feel a little goofy for suggesting it. lol

If the Versatile Design mod wasn't allowed, I can just sub a different feat most likely.

Given the usage of Brutally Weighted onto a bludgeoning weapon, for build 3 I could just as well omit and drop using the Tekko-Kagi and use a different bludgeoning weapon in the off-hand.

If I wanted to get stupid (and if it were allowed), I could swap the warpriest level dip for a dip into Spawn Slayer.

What do you think about all this so far?

Wonderstell wrote:


Also, that familiar will have a higher AC (27) than most of your party, and if you raise your HP with the retraining rules it could end up with more HP than your casters.

If the familiar uses total defense it'll get to that 27 AC, but using total defense excludes it from using AoO's.

In most cases, I'd prefer to go with more base and raw AC on something's character sheet.

Given the fact I have to worry about paying for enhancing two weapons, armor, and other gear before thinking about a familiar's own gear. I'm more inclined to just not bother with having to worry about it and save my money.

All this brain storming is giving me great ideas for another character concept I was working on as well, but that isn't the topic for this thread. ^^


Khell DarkWolf wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Also, that familiar will have a higher AC (27) than most of your party, and if you raise your HP with the retraining rules it could end up with more HP than your casters.
If the familiar uses total defense it'll get to that 27 AC, but using total defense excludes it from using AoO's.

True, but even if it can't make attacks of opportunity, the enemies still provoke attacks of opportunity. Which would trigger Paired Opportunist.

Also, if you choose a familiar with hands it can carry a Tower Shield for an additional +4 AC.

*******

Khell DarkWolf wrote:
What do you think about all this so far?

Build 2 critique:
Let's compare our numbers with the average statistics.

At level 6, these are your options (without martial flex):

+1 Flail: +10 (1d6+4)
Disarm/Trip: +12

So you would have a 50% chance to hit with your flail, and your DPR is 3,75.

The average CMD at CR 6 is 24, which means that your maneuvers have a 45% chance of succeeding. Unfortunately, you can meet enemies that either have nothing to disarm, several legs, or are crawling/flying.

I'd say this build is spreading its resources too thin (2x Weapon Focus, for example) while also working against your racial benefits.

*****

Build 3 critique:
Okay, so you don't actually need the two levels of Titan Mauler to dual-wield the Scythe and Tekko-Kagi.
The Tekko-Kagi is fastened to your forearm, leaving your hand free to two-hand the Scythe.

Sure, you'll probably take a -1 penalty to attack since it's (kinda) a buckler. But that's less than the -2 penalty from Jotungrip.

And as before, here are your options at level 6 (without martial flex):

+1 Flail (PA): +7/+7/+2 (1d6+6)
Disarm: +11
Trip: +12

DPR: 10,45

Flurry Disarm chance of at least one succeeding: ~53%
Flurry Trip chance of at least once succeeding: ~62%
Flurry Trip Risk of tripping yourself: ~57%

*****

Okay, so I think we need to cover some basics here. You're playing a race with a Strength penalty, and you decide to go strength-based.
This is not recommended, since you can either take Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse to apply your dexterity bonus to combat maneuvers.

If you're basing your build around maneuvers, then choose maneuvers that can be used 90% of the time, and make sure that you can contribute when your gimmick doesn't work. The Tekko-Kagi is nice because it allows you to disarm with minimal investment.

Disarm and Trip are both considered weak maneuvers, with some obvious hurdles. The dip into Spawn Slayer was clever, since it removes the size restriction that is arbitrary placed upon some maneuvers. But sooner or later, you will face an enemy that can't be tripped or disarmed.

Also. Dump stats.
You don't benefit from that 10 Cha, and there are plenty of ways to use wisdom/int for social skills. My two favorites are the Student of Philosophy and Cunning Liar traits.

And unless you're gonna use Mutagen/Rage, I'd not recommend you to start with a strength score higher than 13. You are playing a small race with a dexterity bonus. Use it.


Build 4: Smoking Frog:
Str 10, Dex 18+1, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7

Traits:
Adopted(kobold) -> Smoke Resistant (See through non-magical smoke)
Cunning Liar (Wis instead of Cha for Bluff)

[Swashbuckler UnRogue 1] 1. Weapon Finesse (B), EWP: Elven Branched Spear

[Swashbuckler UnRogue 2] 2. Combat Trick -> Equipment Trick: Smokestick (B), Evasion

[Swashbuckler UnRogue 3] 3. Agile Tongue, Dex-to-Damage

[Swashbuckler UnRogue 4] 4. Combat Trick -> Combat Reflexes (B), Debilitating Injury

[Brawler 1] 5. Iron Will

[Brawler 2] 6. Brawler's Flurry, Weapon Adept: Versatile Design (B)

Martial Flex: Dedicated Adversary (+2 Attack/Damage)

*****

Craft: Alchemy, +10 with max ranks.

Bluff, +12 with max ranks.

*****

+1 Elven Spear Flurry: +9/+9 (1d6+4, +2d6 SA)
+1 Elven Spear Standard/AoO: +11 (1d6+6, +2d6 SA)

Disarm/Trip: +9

Not counting with Dedicated Adversary, or that most enemies will lack their Dex bonus to AC/CMD.

*****

Tactic:
You'll be carrying a Smokestick with your tongue, using the Slow Burn Equipment Trick to create 10ft wide clouds to hide within. You'll see through them with the Smoke Resistant trait, but your opponents won't. If you place the cloud so that you have 5ft smoke between you and your opponent, it will suffer Total Concealment and lose its Dex bonus to AC.

So to attack from 5ft away we'll be using the Elven Branched Spear, which is a reach weapon. It has the added benefit of providing a +2 to Attack versus AoO's provoked from movement.

You're free to make Trip/Disarm maneuvers since you won't provoke AoO's if you have Total Concealment, but I would rather try to dish out sneak attack while benefiting from that 50% miss chance from ranged attacks (and 20% from adjacent attacks).

Disclaimer:
You do not actually need EWP or Weapon Adept, since the brawler is automatically proficient with all weapons in the Close weapon group. When you add the Versatile Design modification to the weapon, you also gain proficiency with it.


Wonderstell wrote:

Okay, so I think we need to cover some basics here. You're playing a race with a Strength penalty, and you decide to go strength-based.

This is not recommended, since you can either take Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse to apply your dexterity bonus to combat maneuvers.

And unless you're gonna use Mutagen/Rage, I'd not recommend you to start with a strength score higher than 13. You are playing a small race with a dexterity bonus. Use it.

Yeah...I suppose you're right. Kinda of a let down to think about though...

So then are you saying:

1. For races with str penalties to not bother going str at all.

2. Or if they have penalties, don't go str unless you're going with mutagen/rage.

Wonderstell wrote:

If you're basing your build around maneuvers, then choose maneuvers that can be used 90% of the time, and make sure that you can contribute when your gimmick doesn't work. The Tekko-Kagi is nice because it allows you to disarm with minimal investment.

Disarm and Trip are both considered weak maneuvers, with some obvious hurdles. The dip into Spawn Slayer was clever, since it removes the size restriction that is arbitrary placed upon some maneuvers. But sooner or later, you will face an enemy that can't be tripped or disarmed.

Alright so then...

What is considered good and bad maneuvers?

Dirty Trick I know can be utilized more openly, assuming you can roleplay the associated status effect to be applied to the target which is why it is considered good.

But beyond that, what is considered good?


Khell DarkWolf wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:

Okay, so I think we need to cover some basics here. You're playing a race with a Strength penalty, and you decide to go strength-based.

This is not recommended, since you can either take Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse to apply your dexterity bonus to combat maneuvers.

And unless you're gonna use Mutagen/Rage, I'd not recommend you to start with a strength score higher than 13. You are playing a small race with a dexterity bonus. Use it.

Yeah...I suppose you're right. Kinda of a let down to think about though...

So then are you saying:

1. For races with str penalties to not bother going str at all.

2. Or if they have penalties, don't go str unless you're going with mutagen/rage.

Yeah it's one thing to play a melee dwarf and be 2 Str behind the human, and another to play a grippli and be 4 Str behind.

Even though mutagen/rage helps to make your starting point 'even' with the human, you'll always be 4 points lower in your main stat than you could be.

Khell DarkWolf wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:

If you're basing your build around maneuvers, then choose maneuvers that can be used 90% of the time, and make sure that you can contribute when your gimmick doesn't work. The Tekko-Kagi is nice because it allows you to disarm with minimal investment.

Disarm and Trip are both considered weak maneuvers, with some obvious hurdles. The dip into Spawn Slayer was clever, since it removes the size restriction that is arbitrary placed upon some maneuvers. But sooner or later, you will face an enemy that can't be tripped or disarmed.

***

Alright so then...

What is considered good and bad maneuvers?

Dirty Trick I know can be utilized more openly, assuming you can roleplay the associated status effect to be applied to the target which is why it is considered good.

But beyond that, what is considered good?

Calling Trip weak may have been stretching it, since it's very good at lower levels. I'd say it goes like this.

1. Grapple, Dirty Trick
No size restriction and often results in the opponent completely shut down. Very worthwhile options, and works against most creatures.

2. Trip (Size dependent)
One of the more common choices. It shines at low levels before flight becomes more common, but remember that your opponent's CMD is raised by 2 for every extra leg they have.

3. Bull Rush, Drag, Overrun, Reposition (Size dependent)
Works pretty good after BAB +6, when your opponent provokes AoO's from the 'Greater Maneuver' feats.

4. Disarm, Steal
Situational. If your opponent is a monster, you can't disarm it or steal from it. If you've invested in either of these two maneuvers, you better be sure you're in a campaign with many humanoid enemies.
Disarm can absolutely wreck certain enemies, though. And it's far less situational with the Arm Bind trick. I'd probably place disarm at '2' if your GM is okay with Arm Bind working for any limb.

5. Sunder
Do you really want to destroy your loot?
And it's situational.
Also, calculating HP for items can be a real pain.


Alright, so been busy with life and in my off times working on the concept (which I finished), but I was also working on the other character concepts that I was planning to throw out on the forums for critique.

I decided to try going down a different route, mainly with the idea of building off the Grippli's DEX.

How is this:

Unchained Rogue/Fighter Frog:

STR: 13
DEX: 17 (+1 level to 18)
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 15 (+1 level to 16)
CHA: 7
Assumed level 10 stats

Favored Class: Fighter

Traits:
Threatening Defender (Combat)
Trait 2 TBD


Class levels and Feats:

Unchained Rogue [Scout and Thug Archetype combo]
Fighter [Lore Warden Archetype]

[Lore Warden Fighter 1] - 1. Two-Weapon Fighting (bonus), Weapon Adept (Dual-balanced)

[Unchained Rogue 1] - 2. Finesse Training (Wep Finesse feat bonus) ; Frightening class ability, Sneak attack +1d6
[UNRogue 2] - 3. Evasion class feature ; Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes (Combat trick Talent)
[UNRogue 3] - 4. Finesse Training feature (Throwing Axe), Danger Sense, Sneak attack +2d6, Brutal Beating class feature
[UNRogue 4] - 5. Debilitating Injury, Scout’s Charge ; Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus: Throwing Axe (Weapon Training talent)
[Lore Warden 2] - 6. Combat Expertise (Class bonus), Armor proficiency Medium
[Lore Warden 3] - 7. Maneuver Mastery Class feature ; Improved TWF
[LW 4] - 8. Weapon Specialization
[LW 5] - 9. Weapon Training feature (Axes) ; Advanced weapon training feat or Iron Will (more likely as the choice)
[LW 6] - 10. Quick Draw or Armor Adept (Nimble & Vitalguard mods)
[LW 7] - 11. Toughness
[LW 8] - 12. Greater Weapon Focus
[LW 9] - 13. Greater TWF
[LW 10] - 14. *TBD*
[LW 11] - 15. *TBD*
[LW 12] - 16. Greater Weapon Specialization


Equipment:

[Dual-Balanced] Throwing Axe +4 (Main-Hand) - Fortuitous [+1], Sharding [+2] Speed [+3]
[Dual-Balanced] Throwing Axe +4 (Off-hand) - Designating, Greater [+4], Sharding [+2]

Mithral Agile Breastplate (Nimble/Vitalguard modification)

Maybe it is silly for a Rogue trying to emulate the effects of a hero and front line fighter but the thought sounded appealing cause you wouldn't think of it.

I wanted to go with a different weapon, so thematically I thought why not axes? The Greater Designating weapon ability also allows some buffs for the party for to-hit and damage. Throwing Axe matched the criteria.

The principle being, early on (or just always) to have combat expertise and fight defensively turned on. Character is wearing light armor so still qualifies for evasion for those reflex throws.

Brutal Beating means I can forgo a 1d6 sneak attack to make a target sickened while Scout's Charge means I can get it online through the use of a charge action. Did I mention he also has Debilitating Injury?

Any ally I'm defending or wishes to be up front with me, I got bodyguard for a little boost to their AC. :P

If I'm inclined, I could burn a feat for an extra rogue talent and get that re-positioning attack talent or just wade my way in to get that flank if needed.

Don't want to go in melee? I'll just chuck spectral axes at you...

13 Str, I still got an option to get power attack if I really wanted to (if not for the extra bit of carry weight).

The choice of Lore Warden is really just to get the combat Expertise feat for free and have some extra defensive CMD at this point. I could still go down a route of maneuvers but pushed it aside to see how it would look.

Does that look like a better use of the Race?


Quote:
Does that look like a better use of the Race?

Yah. Capitalizing on the dex bonus is good, and your ability scores seem balanced.

Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively is going to hurt your damage, as these options are normally only taken if you have feats boosting their effects.

For example, at level 7 your attack routine would be:
6 (BAB) +5 (Dex with +2 belt) +1 (Magic Weapon) -2 (TWF) -2 (Combat Expertise) -4 (Fighting Defensively)
= +4/+4/-1/-1

While a CR equivalent creature should have 20 AC.

****

And you may be a little ahead of yourself assuming you'll have two +10 weapons even at level 16. The expected total wealth of a level 16 character is 315,000 gp, while that would cost you 400,000 gp.

You could go for a 1.5x dex dmg build, using an Elven Branched Spear/Curve Blade. Then you'd not suffer the TWF penalties and can focus on upgrading one weapon instead of two.

If you're dead set on TWF, I'd probably take two levels of Brawler instead of UnRogue and then five levels of Fighter for the Warrior's Spirit advanced weapon training. After that, maybe shore up the bad will save with two levels into Vigilante before going straight fighter.

Also, take the Mutation Warrior archetype if you want a fly speed at fighter level 7.

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