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I agree wholeheartedly. There are too many instances of "the GM sets the DC" with zero explanation. It would be far better to give a DC in the book or give a way to use the difficulty-by-level chart of DC's. Then, let the GM's adjust DC's accordingly. This way, the GM choosing the difficulty for the chart is already a clear, simple way to allow GM's to adjust the DC while giving them some parameters.
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This is a huge issue. "The GM sets the DC" is a designer cop-out, because the GM always has the right to set the DC. That's a given.
What I want from the rules is a set of typical values, or suggestions, which are EASILY ACCESSIBLE during the game, so I can make my own decision.
I just spent fifteen minutes FIFTEEN MINUTES during the last game trying to figure out what the DC for "grab edge" should be for a simple pit trap. I still don't know. I most certainly do not want to have to derive all of these values myself in the middle of the game. Having typical values for climbing and jumping and fog and wind etc. etc. ready at hand is a reason I really loved PF1, because I cannot manage to keep these value consistent if I'm concocting them myself on the fly.
By the way, does anyone actually know what the DC for Grab Edge is supposed to be? There's a simple pit trap in Rose Street Revenge. Of course, instead of telling me what the Grab Edge DC is, it tells me to see the Acrobatics Skill, which basically says "The GM sets the DC". AAARRGH!
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By the way, does anyone actually know what the DC for Grab Edge is supposed to be? There's a simple pit trap in Rose Street Revenge. Of course, instead of telling me what the Grab Edge DC is, it tells me to see the Acrobatics Skill, which basically says "The GM sets the DC". AAARRGH!
I'd use the level of the pit to pick the row from the chart on page 337. I'd choose the difficulty (trivial, low, high, severe, extreme) Based on the conditions. Low as the base line; a higher one if it's raining or something.
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Anytime the 'GM sets it DC' it is assumed that the DC is level-appropriate. Most tasks are Hard-Checks for their level. Which is not to say appropriate for the PC's level, but rather the NPC/Hazard/Object's level.
However, the list of examples is rather vague and sparse, and I wish there were better guidelines to adjudicating the level & difficulty of a task.
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Thank you, Knight Magenta and Cantriped.
The chart on p. 337 seems good enough for adventure design, but I don't want to consult it mid-game every time a check is called for.
Thank you, Knight Magenta and Cantriped.
The chart on p. 337 seems good enough for adventure design, but I don't want to consult it mid-game every time a check is called for.
The charts there because that's the only way for you to know how the DC changes when someone spills oil on the Level 3 cliff. Its not that different from P1 where you would go to the climb page and look up the "slippery" modifier.
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Many skill uses lack listed or even suggested DCs:
I agree completely, it's a huge problem.
In my last playtest, I've just become the designer. I did DC 5 maintain balance checks, DC 5 climb ladder checks, DC 12 grab edge check. There are no guidelines, so I'm just going by what we had in PF1. People who didn't play PF1 don't have that luxury.
And btw, although those checks all seem really low, even for level 1, ironically they were ALL failed.
In any case, we need some guidance, some hard numbers. Sorry, I don't understand what a "level 1 cliff" is, oh now I'm level 4, we're climbing "a level 5 cliff". What does this mean? Nothing.
Should riding the camel need a Command Animal (Nature) check? What should the DC be? What if they critically fail? There's no guidance in the rulebook and there isn't even any guidance in "In Pale Mountain's Shadow".
I think that these should be moved to the skill section in order to consolidate information on skills.
YES! This information needs to be consolidated in the skill section.
I did DC 5 maintain balance checks, DC 5 climb ladder checks, DC 12 grab edge check.
And btw, although those checks all seem really low, even for level 1, ironically they were ALL failed.
Ok, I have to ask:
HOW? How did a level 4 player fail a DC 5 check?
I really want the skill DC tables for each skill (or at least most skills) from PF1 to show up again in PF2, it gives a good idea to both the player and GM of what a character can accomplish with what bonus and having static examples helps prevent GMs from just picking DCs to match the players bonus and making a treadmill.
I did DC 5 maintain balance checks, DC 5 climb ladder checks, DC 12 grab edge check.
And btw, although those checks all seem really low, even for level 1, ironically they were ALL failed.
Ok, I have to ask:
HOW? How did a level 4 player fail a DC 5 check?
Natural 1s are now a thing for skill checks as much as for attack rolls, and cause you to automatically fail even if you have +100.
Also, at level 4, your untrained skill modifier is net +2. So if it's with an ability score in which you have a 10 you fail DC 5 on a 2, and if it's with an ability score in which you have an 8 you fail DC 5 on a 2-3.
HOW? How did a level 4 player fail a DC 5 check?Natural 1s are now a thing for skill checks as much as for attack rolls, and cause you to automatically fail even if you have +100.
Also, at level 4, your untrained skill modifier is net +2. So if it's with an ability score in which you have a 10 you fail DC 5 on a 2, and if it's with an ability score in which you have an 8 you fail DC 5 on a 2-3.
I know nat-1 is a thing, but still, that's a lot of checks to have come up nat-1.