So, throttle weapons only deal damage on a grapple, and can treat a grapple as an attack for special abilities that boost damage, like trick attack.
This makes strangling compatible with a few things, including trick attack, and the overcharge mechanic trick (for powered weapon variants.)
However, only being able to make the grapple attempt with damage-boosting abilities means that envoy improvisations like Clever Attack cannot be used with these weapons. Most oddly, Improved Get 'Em would be usable with throttle weapons, but ONLY when spending resolve to provide a damage boost as well as a too-hit boost?
So, I suppose what I'm wondering is, is there any good reason for throttle weapons to only be compatible with abilities that boost damage, or was someone not thinking about non-Operative classes existing when the weapon property was written?
I would like for that to be the case, but I believe you are mistaken. I have seen no rule in Starfinder about being able to use combat maneuvers in place of an attack. Is tgere such a rule somewhere tgat I have missed?
Because without it, a grapple is a standard action, not an attack option where with that rule, a grapple could even be used as an AoO.
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I believe that by a strict reading of the rules HammerJack is correct. Its treated as an attack for that boost damage (trick attack, overcharge, etc.) but not for things that don't clever attack.
This does appear to lead to the strange situation where clever attack wouldn't work where trick attack would.
The follow-up question is obviously, is this only for the damage part or could you also use debilitating tricks since you're making a trick attack?
Also, this should be in the rules question forum not the general discussion forum.
This might be better if we flagged this to be moved to the Rules Forum so we can add the FAQ tag. I too, would like an answer to this question.
Thank you for the response. I appreciate that bonuses to an attack roll apply to grapple attempts, but, to attempt to clarify, the question I was raising is about action economy, rather than attack bonus.
As the throttle property is written, it appears that a grapple attempt can be used as part of the standard action application of the mechanic overcharge trick, or as part of trick attack. Envoy improvisations that improve action economy, like Improved Get 'Em making an attack and applying the bonus as the same standard action, instead of using a move action to apply Get 'Em and then a standard to attack, do not appear to be able to substitute the grapple attempt, making these improvisations unusable with throttle weapons.
If I understand it right you could always use Grapple as an option with Trick Attack/Improved Get 'Em etc since these abilities stipulate variations of "you make a single attack" and a combat maneuver is (usually) a melee attack. The benefit of Throttle weapons is that you apply your damage with each successful grapple check (including the first one to successfully establish a grapple) and that any bonus damage provided by your attack (such as Trick Attack) is applied to that damage roll even though grapples normally don't do damage.
Let's try an example:
Example 1:
An unarmed Envoy rolls an Improved Get 'Em and uses his attack to grapple an opponent. He gains a +2 morale bonus on his attack roll. He succeeds on the attack roll, so his opponent gets the grappled condition.
Example 2:
An unarmed Operative rolls a trick attack to grapple an opponent. He makes the bluff check, so his target is flat-footed. He succeeds on the attack roll, so his opponent gets the grappled condition. There's no damage involved, so the bonus damage from trick attack is wasted.
Next we introduce a throttling weapon.
Example 3: An Envoy armed with a nanofiber garrote rolls an Improved Get 'Em and uses his attack to grapple an opponent. He gains a +2 morale bonus on his attack roll. He succeeds on the attack roll, so his opponent gets the grappled condition. Since he's using a throttle weapon he also rolls damage for the weapon (2d4+the usual modifiers).
Example 4: An operative armed with a nanofiber garrote rolls a trick attack to grapple an opponent. He makes the bluff check, so his target is flat-footed. He succeeds on the attack roll, so his opponent gets the grappled condition. Since he's using a throttle weapon he rolls the weapon's damage (2d4+the usual modifiers) and since he succeeded on his trick attack he also applies Trick Attack damage.
Although come to think of it, the attack=maneuver is a Pathfinder rule and I couldn't find any similar language in Starfinder. When a class feature like the Envoy's Clever Attack allows you to make "a single attack" does that allow you to use a combat maneuver (which is explicitly listed under a different heading than 'attack') or only a basic attack?
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I would like that to be true, Kudaku, but I didn't think it was (and I don't think it was Owen's intent to make it so)
Specifically, there are two class abilities that let you substitute a bull rush at the end of a charge, if you could do so generally I don't think they'd be written the way they are:
Charge Attack: "and you can substitute a bull rush for the melee attack at the end of the charge."
Stellar Rush: "When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can substitute a bull rush for the melee attack at the end of the charge."
I also never found a rule like that, in Starfinder, and would like to know if someone has seen one, as it would make my concerns a non-issue. In the case of such a rule, it would also be good to know if covering fire and harrying fire could be substituted for attacks.
EDIT: I believe that the universal substitution of grapples for attacks would also be necessary for throttle weapons to threaten, while I'm thinking about it.
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Wouldn't a universal rule that you can substitute a grapple for an attack allow you to full attack with two grapples in a turn meaning you could go straight from not grappled to pinned with 2 attacks in a round.
It would also let you grapple and then regrapple the same turn and disarm somehow dealing damage both times instead of using the disarm combat maneuver.
Yes on the disarm, but I think no about double grappling to get to pinned. Looking at the Starfinder grapple action, I don't see going from grappled to pinned as an action, the way it exists in Pathfinder. Pinning looks like it is only a result of extremely high grapple checks that beat KAC+13.
It would allow grappling to disarm, ,then regrappling, and grapple AoOs, which would negate attacks from two-handed weapons and a lot of other weird things.
It would be a lot of rules to assume exist.
I went back and reread both the combat maneuver text and the Throttling weapon quality, I'm pretty sure you are both right and I'm mistaken - "a single attack" and "a combat maneuver" are not interchangeable. I recalled the Pathfinder rule that you can interchange certain maneuvers and attacks and misread Starfinder's combat maneuver text that mentions "a melee attack roll" as "a melee attack". That's what I get for skimming.
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Yes on the disarm, but I think no about double grappling to get to pinned. Looking at the Starfinder grapple action, I don't see going from grappled to pinned as an action, the way it exists in Pathfinder. Pinning looks like it is only a result of extremely high grapple checks that beat KAC+13.
It would allow grappling to disarm, ,then regrappling, and grapple AoOs, which would negate attacks from two-handed weapons and a lot of other weird things.
It would be a lot of rules to assume exist.
Fair, it looks like you can't go grappled to pinned in the same way, but still two opportunities to grapple even at -4 is a pretty good proposition especially if you're a skittermander with a throttle weapon and improved grapple (then its only KAC+4 on both.)