It looks to me that for Rangers the advantage from Hunt Target (-3 for second attack from agile weapon) is trumped by Double Slice (no minus for second attack from agile weapon).
I guess that the one advantage to Hunt Target is that it would let you make a third attack after the double slice at an increased accuracy.
Is there any way to make the signature class feature for Rangers more useful for Double Slice Rangers or are these abilities intended to be somewhat redundant?
I think they are intended to be redundant. Hunt Target works best with bows and single weapons (1 or 2 handed) so the ranger feats exist to make other fighting styles (dual weapon and crossbows) viable despite not using the rangers main ability much.
I think they are intended to be redundant. Hunt Target works best with bows and single weapons (1 or 2 handed) so the ranger feats exist to make other fighting styles (dual weapon and crossbows) viable despite not using the rangers main ability much.
I guess its a matter of perception. If they called "Double Slice' "Improved Hunt Target" I'd probably favor it more even if it just did the same thing.
I could get behind that. I'm undecided as to weather I like that design style or not but I think it was intentional.
I think they are intended to be redundant. Hunt Target works best with bows and single weapons (1 or 2 handed) so the ranger feats exist to make other fighting styles (dual weapon and crossbows) viable despite not using the rangers main ability much.I guess its a matter of perception. If they called "Double Slice' "Improved Hunt Target" I'd probably favor it more even if it just did the same thing.
Well now you have a problem:
Fighters also get Double Slice. You going to rename the feat for them too?
Hunt Target lets you apply weakness on both hits. Against some targets like zombies, that's more valuable than than the Double Slice accuracy boost, I think. (Or could be, at least.) I suppose if one of your weapons is resisted but he other isn't, Hunt Target might look more appealing as well.
Hunt Target can also be used before combat, or on a round an enemy has become Unseen or Senses, for example. (Also, can you split your Double Slice between multiple targets? I'm unclear on that.) I could also see some niche situations where you might want to throw weapons instead of closing into melee. Using something throwable in your off-hand has always been an undervalued strategy, IMO.
But yeah, I don't think Hunt Target is meant to be the equivalent of a Barbarian's rage that gets used in every round of every combat. I think it is a more situational ability meant to excel in scenarios where the Ranger, well, Hunts. Getting the drop on enemies, or trying to find them through stealth, etc.
You can use double slice in combination with hunt target. Turn 1 you use hunt target. Turn 2 you attack and then double slice. That way you have 3 attacks with minimal penalties.
But we still have this issue that Hunt Target is a mandatory class ability that doesn't synergize at all with the class' feat options.
Hunt Target reduces iterative attack penalties.
Rangers get Double Slice (which results in no iterative penalties, so Hunt Target's bonus doesn't apply) and Crossbow Ace (which needs reloading, making iterative attacks unlikely, so Hunt Target's bonus doesn't apply--yes, Crossbow Ace adds a special bonus if you Hunt Target, but Hunt Target itself is doing nothing). Rangers don't get Point Blank Shot, so they're unlikely to use longbows (which would let them make iterative attacks often). They could potentially use shortbows, but a lot of their class feats wouldn't really apply then. (The other two 1st level options are Animal Companion--which many players don't want because it's a complication and which costs an action to command, thus denying you iterative attacks--and Monster Hunter--which is just awful, requiring a critical success with a skill that's not one of your Signature skills 4/5ths of the time--so none of their starting feats work well with Hunt Target.)
It's kind of like the "monks get enhanced movement speed" and "monks get Flurry which they can't use if they move" issue all over again. Using one of their class' abilities locks them out of using the other.
You do get Quickdraw, then Skirmish Strike later. I don't like the penalty on the latter. You can use these to open and get two attacks afterward at -3 with Double Slice.
You do get Quickdraw, then Skirmish Strike later. I don't like the penalty on the latter. You can use these to open and get two attacks afterward at -3 with Double Slice.
Do you have any sense of why they limited the ranged feat to crossbows? I always pictture Rangers with bows.
It is good for longer battles as it reduces your 3rd(or 4th attack if you get one) attack penalty by 2.
It's either -8 for normal weapons or -6 for agile.
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You do get Quickdraw, then Skirmish Strike later. I don't like the penalty on the latter. You can use these to open and get two attacks afterward at -3 with Double Slice.Do you have any sense of why they limited the ranged feat to crossbows? I always pictture Rangers with bows.
I would assume it's so they have to get used by someone.
You do get Quickdraw, then Skirmish Strike later. I don't like the penalty on the latter. You can use these to open and get two attacks afterward at -3 with Double Slice.Do you have any sense of why they limited the ranged feat to crossbows? I always pictture Rangers with bows.
I assume it's so you can make Harsk, the iconic ranger. He's the only ranger I can think of who is shown with a crossbow.
Ranger is one of several classes that really feels like they hadn't completed it before the playtest deadline, leaving it without many of the feats it should have.
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You can use double slice in combination with hunt target. Turn 1 you use hunt target. Turn 2 you attack and then double slice. That way you have 3 attacks with minimal penalties.
Yeah, combining Hunt Target and Double Slice is pretty potent. Is it better to attack once, then double strike at -3 or make two attacks at full BAB and then one at -6, though?
You can use double slice in combination with hunt target. Turn 1 you use hunt target. Turn 2 you attack and then double slice. That way you have 3 attacks with minimal penalties.Yeah, combining Hunt Target and Double Slice is pretty potent. Is it better to attack once, then double strike at -3 or make two attacks at full BAB and then one at -6, though?
Always better to land 3 hits, attack once then double slice.
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Always better to land 3 hits, attack once then double slice.You can use double slice in combination with hunt target. Turn 1 you use hunt target. Turn 2 you attack and then double slice. That way you have 3 attacks with minimal penalties.Yeah, combining Hunt Target and Double Slice is pretty potent. Is it better to attack once, then double strike at -3 or make two attacks at full BAB and then one at -6, though?
That depends on how likely you are to hit with your first attack. Average Damage is even if the primary attack requires less than 15 to hit. If it requires 15 through 19, attacking twice without penalty is better. Landing 3 hits is the best outcome, but attacking before double slicing is only advantageous if taking -3, you hit on anything but a 1, but at -6, you can miss by rolling low.
Basically, if you're VERY likely to hit, Strike then Double Slice; if you're unlikely to hit, Double Slice then Strike.