This thread discusses better ways to market Pathfinder through local game stores and how to better challenge or leverage competing products to expand Pathfinder's market share and/or sales volume.
Is this about things we can do to help market Pasthfinder better or is it us telling staff how they could do a better job?
Speaking with other players' frustrations with RPG systems suddenly pulling the plug on, for example, edition 1 by making it unavailble for purchase in stores (not just talking about Pathfinder 1st Edition for when that time comes -- but also other game systems which have already done that) and attempting to force their customer base to buy the latest edition, I think Paizo would serve its customer base much more responsibly when 2nd edition comes out by:
1. Continuing to print at least 1st edition Core Rulebook (and, ideally, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat).
2. Make them available in game stores -- or they will stop supporting 1st edition players. This might kill our investment in Pathfinder. They provide a place for us to play and help supply players.
I love the PDFs as a GM -- but players and most GMs seem to very much prefer the books. Cutting those off entirely, I think, would go a long way to completely killing off 1st edition.
After getting burned like that, it becomes much harder to start an investiment in 2nd edition. Also, it seems unlikely that 2nd edition will be around as long as 1st edition was. Risky investment. One day the plug could get pulled on it just the same as 1st edition.
I do not recommend you send that sort of message. I think exiting the stores and leaving them without a 1st edition presence will undermine the Pathfinder community.
Here in Frisco, TX D&D 5e is dominating in the comic book stores in terms of numbers of gaming tables and pool of available players -- but there just isn't a good reason for this. Pathfinder 1st Edition should be able to dominate as it is (though I am very interested in everything going on with 2nd Edition and support its creation). But let me explain why Pathfinder, as it is, should be dominating over D&D 5e.
PDFs, I think as I'll explain later, are a major advantage Paizo has over WotC -- especially the interactive maps. Honestly, I'd like to have the opportunity to buy fully laminated versions. I print them using cheap printer ink (printing a 6 x 6 map costs me about $5). My group loves playing on them. Can't do that with D&D as far as I know. So, now, when I advertise in comic book stores for players, I show off the maps. This is how I am going to pull players from 5e. I can beat their DMs.
I think Paizo would compete with D&D 5e just fine using 1st edition if they would market the following major advantages:
1. Printable, interactive and beautifully illustrated maps that you can play on during gaming sessions.
2. Electronically searchable PDFs that provide an unparalleled GMing experience. Ever wondering what Garmen Ulreth is up to? Search the PDFs in the campaign for all references to Garmen.
3. Use the pawn PDFs to print and put on the map exactly the monsters in your encounters -- no more stand-in pawns. Want to have your party fight 6 Warden Robots? Print 6 and put them on the map.
4. Paizo has a LOT more optional rule books than D&D 5e. My players (and I) are just now coming to grips with this. Experienced players are getting tired of playing the core classes. They are really getting into playing all the extremely different and innovative classes available in the optional books. Investigator, Kinetisist, etc. Gobs and gobs of really cool classes your not going to get in D&D 5e.
I really think that D&D 5e is clobbering us right now in the comic books stores strictly because of a marketing problem. Realizing this, I am starting to leverage the above advantages in my ads to get players for my campaigns.
Really, Paizo has WotC beat -- and beat them a long time ago. Paizo just needs to realize this if they haven't and advertise in comic books stores with posters highlighting all their major advantages.
Admittedly, Paizo has to handle the PDF issue carefully because the last thing comic books stores want is everyone jumping online to buy their materials. There might be two possible answers to this problem to keep PDF files in the conversation:
1. Enable people who own the books to go online and get the PDFs at a discount or for free.
2. Find a way to sell the PDFs through comic book stores. Maybe, this could be something like selling a prepaid card through the comic book stores that gives people a discount when they go online to buy the PDFs.
1. Continuing to print at least 1st edition Core Rulebook (and, ideally, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat).
They've already announced they're going to do that. They announced that on the same day they announced PF2. That's never been in question
2. Make them available in game stores -- or they will stop supporting 1st edition players. This might kill our investment in Pathfinder. They provide a place for us to play and help supply players.
That's up to the game store owners, not Paizo
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Is this about things we can do to help market Pasthfinder better or is it us telling staff how they could do a better job?
It's about how to market Pathfinder better. Hopefully, the staff will take the best ideas from this thread and implement them where possible.
They're already doing what you suggest.
How are you going to help market Pathfinder?
Will you be guaranteeing a minimum dollar amount of purchases every month to your local game store? Either through your own purchases, or the people you bring to the store to buy stuff?
That's what will keep game stores stocking PF1. But if that's what you want, you have to step up and make it worth their while.
If other things turn over faster than PF1, then store owners will fill their shelves with those things. You can't waste shelf space just to store books that no one is buying.
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5e is outselling PF because of three things:
1. Brand recognition
2. Lower entry bard, more approachable
3. Critical Role/Geek and Sundry (and other streamers) bringing the game to the YouTube/Twitch watching masses.
Paizo can't do much about 1, is doing about 2 by putting PF2 out and is doing about 3 by having Dragons and Things/Stuff. Incidentally, Critical Role used Pathfinder 1e at the very beginning, but they switched to 5e because it was less clunky. That's how you lose market.
Interactive maps and pawns won't do squat for anybody who plays mind's eye theatre, and WotC is ahead of Paizo even though they've completely abandoned the whole "grid map" thing. Does WotC offer maps and pawns? No. Is it ahead in sales of Paizo, who does? Yes.
If PF2 sells well, store owners will likely push PF1 out because shelf space isn't infinite and because the last thing you want is angry customers because they bought a 1E book thinking that it's 2E. I think that PF1 will hang out to a limited degree, but that's going to be scraps here and there.
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So you passed your bard exam?
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They're already doing what you suggest.
How are you going to help market Pathfinder?
Will you be guaranteeing a minimum dollar amount of purchases every month to your local game store? Either through your own purchases, or the people you bring to the store to buy stuff?
That's what will keep game stores stocking PF1. But if that's what you want, you have to step up and make it worth their while.
If other things turn over faster than PF1, then store owners will fill their shelves with those things. You can't waste shelf space just to store books that no one is buying.
1. Anyone who plays Pathfinder in a game store IS helping to market Pathfinder.
I also advertise in local game stores and the local college for players and GMs. We currently have two stable groups that meet regularly and I would like to continue to expand them.
2. No, I am not guaranteeing anything. Marketing is about creating a win-win situation between a business and a customer. Sell the customer what they need or want, and they will buy your product. There is yet another entity in the relationship that is the local game store. For all of us to win, I am recommending some changes.
3. Yes, for PF1 to survive, it will have to sell. I think it will. I think it is currently the best RPG ever created by far. It has the most and best material I have ever seen. As long as it is available in print, I think it will sell.
5e is outselling PF because of three things:
1. Brand recognition
2. Lower entry bard, more approachable
3. Critical Role/Geek and Sundry (and other streamers) bringing the game to the YouTube/Twitch watching masses.Paizo can't do much about 1, is doing about 2 by putting PF2 out and is doing about 3 by having Dragons and Things/Stuff. Incidentally, Critical Role used Pathfinder 1e at the very beginning, but they switched to 5e because it was less clunky. That's how you lose market.
Interactive maps and pawns won't do squat for anybody who plays mind's eye theatre, and WotC is ahead of Paizo even though they've completely abandoned the whole "grid map" thing. Does WotC offer maps and pawns? No. Is it ahead in sales of Paizo, who does? Yes.
If PF2 sells well, store owners will likely push PF1 out because shelf space isn't infinite and because the last thing you want is angry customers because they bought a 1E book thinking that it's 2E. I think that PF1 will hang out to a limited degree, but that's going to be scraps here and there.
1. Interesting point about mind's eye theatre. I did not know it was popular. In the 80s, we went to pawn-based games almost immediately and never looked back. I'd still have to say for the GM that the PDFs are a big advantage. I have all 20+ books and thats the only way I can carry them around. The same is true for the Adventure Paths and Modules. I like having the PDFs so I can carry them around wherever I want. I have my library on my phone, a tablet, and a laptop -- whichever I think I need to prepare or run a game.
I'd love to have another PDF that can index all the Ultimate, Adventures, Core Rulebook, and Advanced Player's Guide books to make it easier for me to look things up. I'd put out another $10 for that.
2. PF2 books will be clearly marked as PF2. If someone buys a PF1 book by mistake, stores have a return policy.
3. At least one store near me, Madness Comics, has multiple D&D editions for sale: 3.5, 4e, and 5e. I'm sure PF1 and PF2 would do just fine next to each other and one might even help sell the other.
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1. Continuing to print at least 1st edition Core Rulebook (and, ideally, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat).They've already announced they're going to do that. They announced that on the same day they announced PF2. That's never been in question
2. Make them available in game stores -- or they will stop supporting 1st edition players. This might kill our investment in Pathfinder. They provide a place for us to play and help supply players.That's up to the game store owners, not Paizo
Well, yes and no. Paizo can either support the PF1 market or undermine it with the long used cannibalism approach that forces a customer base to buy a whole new product by killing off the existing product -- or even appear to be doing so.
To the community out here, I think to them out of print means dead.
I am simply cautioning that they don't use that approach because it could backfire. Other companies to the gaming community appear to be trying to do that and I am hearing about some unhappy customers that appear to have stopped playing.
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In any case, Paizo have announced that they will keep printing the paperback edition of first edition rulebooks as long as people keep buying them.
I really think that D&D 5E is as successful as it is not because it's a better game than Pathfinder (even though there are things to like about it) but because of CRITICAL ROLE.
I had no intention of ever running or playing 5E until I started listening to CRITICAL ROLE. It got me, a longtime Pathfinder proponent who has at least 17 AP's, all of the Pathfinder RPG books and a pretty decent amount of 3rd party Pathfinder material to buy the 3 5E Core books and Tales of the Yawning Portal.
I'm going to be using 5E to strictly run what I'm going to be calling campaign classics. But I'm going to be running 5E. I live in NYC and I can tell you overall? More people are aware of 5E through CRITICAL ROLE than they are of Pathfinder AT ALL. This is from being in nerd spaces like The Compleat Strategist or Midtown Comics or the Warhammer Store down on 8th street and hearing people refer to CR and wanting to or starting to run or play in D&D games. I've even run into people at my WORK who have started playing in D&D games thanks to either friends who have been inspired by CR.
Pathfinder does not have the exposure, the name recognition or popularity that 5E does at this moment. And I really doubt that Pathfinder 2E is going to change that unless there's something out there that brings the game to a broader audience in the way that CRITICAL ROLE did. THE GLASS CANNON Podcast is a good start but it's nowhere as popular as CR is.
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Well, Pathfinder has Dragons and Things/Stuff. Which isn't quite up there with Critical Role in terms of subscribers/viewers but hey, they're catching up.
And Critical Role did have a "little" help from Felicia Day inviting them over to Geek and Sundry, giving them a ginormous starting position.
But the sadpandfact is that Critical Role began as D&D 4e campaign, switched to Pathfinder, and then went D&D 5e juuuust as the show kicked off. And they've done that because 5e is less clunky than Pathfinder and 5e is easier to run for a large number of players.
2. PF2 books will be clearly marked as PF2. If someone buys a PF1 book by mistake, stores have a return policy.
Stores may have a return policy, but to someone who's never played before, the difference may not be so obvious. AD&D 1E's PHB had different covers, and someone could think that it's just a different cover of the same book. If you have to travel out of your way to get to the gaming store or don't have a reliable way to get there, it may be difficult to return it. There's also online sales - if you buy it off Amazon and buy the wrong book, it's more difficult to return it.
Okay, yes, this will cause some issues -- but that's a problem with every other product out there. Consumers will always get tripped up on which is the latest edition, version, model, etc. As consumers, people just need to research before they buy. No way around that.
Awesome to hear that Madness Comics still has 3.5 and 4E books for sale. I usually order online from Noble Knight Games if I'm looking for out of print stuff (I don't live anywhere near that store)....
3. At least one store near me, Madness Comics, has multiple D&D editions for sale: 3.5, 4e, and 5e. I'm sure PF1 and PF2 would do just fine next to each other and one might even help sell the other.
Madness Comics only sells new products, and these books all looked like they were in mint condition -- fresh off the press.
I really think that D&D 5E is as successful as it is not because it's a better game than Pathfinder (even though there are things to like about it) but because of CRITICAL ROLE.
I had no intention of ever running or playing 5E until I started listening to CRITICAL ROLE. It got me, a longtime Pathfinder proponent who has at least 17 AP's, all of the Pathfinder RPG books and a pretty decent amount of 3rd party Pathfinder material to buy the 3 5E Core books and Tales of the Yawning Portal.
I'm going to be using 5E to strictly run what I'm going to be calling campaign classics. But I'm going to be running 5E. I live in NYC and I can tell you overall? More people are aware of 5E through CRITICAL ROLE than they are of Pathfinder AT ALL. This is from being in nerd spaces like The Compleat Strategist or Midtown Comics or the Warhammer Store down on 8th street and hearing people refer to CR and wanting to or starting to run or play in D&D games. I've even run into people at my WORK who have started playing in D&D games thanks to either friends who have been inspired by CR.
Pathfinder does not have the exposure, the name recognition or popularity that 5E does at this moment. And I really doubt that Pathfinder 2E is going to change that unless there's something out there that brings the game to a broader audience in the way that CRITICAL ROLE did. THE GLASS CANNON Podcast is a good start but it's nowhere as popular as CR is.
Thanks for the info about Critical Role -- I looked it up. I think people have talked about it and have also given it credit for D&D's success.
I'm not so sure. We might be talking about a generation gap here, but I barely have time to watch my favorite TV shows much less listen to a stream about D&D. But, I won't entirely dismiss the idea. I'll check it out sometime.
I think, though, greater impact is name recognition. D&D was the beginning -- though it wasn't created by WotC -- it was created by TSR. TSR was purchased by WotC, I think, more or less how Pebble was purchased by FitBit. Torn apart and only some pieces kept.
D&D is not so much a priority as The Magic Gathering. Pathfinder is Paizo's life blood -- and it shows in the superior quality of their product.
I think, more likely, that maybe Pathfinder needs a more recognizable name. The only reason I didn't investigate Pathfinder much earlier is that -- I didn't know what the heck it was.
Pathfinder is a Nisan SUV -- that's the first thing I think of. Therefore, it's confusing.
Why not rename Pathfinder something?
What that is would take some thought -- but it should immediately draw out vivid mental images and be thought provoking. Dungeons &
Dragons is thought provoking. Pathfinder is not. There's the major advantage -- D&D has a great, vivid name. Even though the art work is leaps and bounds much better in Pathfinder, it just isn't enough to recover. Pathfinder should be on top.
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Well, Pathfinder has Dragons and Things/Stuff. Which isn't quite up there with Critical Role in terms of subscribers/viewers but hey, they're catching up.
And Critical Role did have a "little" help from Felicia Day inviting them over to Geek and Sundry, giving them a ginormous starting position.
But the sadpandfact is that Critical Role began as D&D 4e campaign, switched to Pathfinder, and then went D&D 5e juuuust as the show kicked off. And they've done that because 5e is less clunky than Pathfinder and 5e is easier to run for a large number of players.
Okay. Thanks for the background info. As I've been a GM for Pathfinder for the past (almost exactly) one year, I've noticed that there's bits of material that I have to look up all over the place that should be collected together by topic.
Maybe this is something the marketing guys could suggest to the product designers?
Also, as I said before, it's kind of hard to find things with material spread across 20+ different rule books -- but I wouldn't trade all those rule books for anything, except for maybe consolidated volumes.
Still, I noticed, even within just the Core Rulebook that I had to flip all over the place to get clarification on specific topics -- like invisibility, DC for saving throws, etc. Each one of those merited its own chapter.
For invisibility, I would have liked quick clarification on when Detect Magic could work on a creature or NPC that's invisible and when it would fail (creatures that can turn invisible as an Ex, for example I don't think emit an aura just because they went invisible -- but I still need to confirm and to do that I'd have to check the Bestiary because I couldn't find the exact rule in the Core Rulebook).
If I need to figure out the DC for a saving throw, it would be nice to see most of the scenarios all laid out for me in one place -- including those for breaking items.
I'm sure there are other topics like these that also deserve a chapter. There's lots of chapters that are really good, like Combat, Spells, etc.
So, maybe adding some more chapters on these other topics would help?
I'm sure there are other topics like these that also deserve a chapter. There's lots of chapters that are really good, like Combat, Spells, etc.
So, maybe adding some more chapters on these other topics would help?
That's the thing: they're not going to put any more staff time in rewriting PF1. They're just going to keep reprinting what they have already published.
When you ask for them to add new topics and add new chapters, you're moving the goal posts. They said from the very first day that they announced PF2 that they'd be doing exactly what you asked for.
Now you've changed your mind, and want more. Not going to happen. They aren't going to rewrite PF1, and also write PF2. They aren't going to keep two product lines going.
If you want a better version of PF1, then you need to get involved in the playtesting for PF2. That's what PF2 is for: a better version that incorporates 10+ years of game experience into the new product.
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I'm sure there are other topics like these that also deserve a chapter. There's lots of chapters that are really good, like Combat, Spells, etc.
So, maybe adding some more chapters on these other topics would help?
That's the thing: they're not going to put any more staff time in rewriting PF1. They're just going to keep reprinting what they have already published.
When you ask for them to add new topics and add new chapters, you're moving the goal posts. They said from the very first day that they announced PF2 that they'd be doing exactly what you asked for.
Now you've changed your mind, and want more. Not going to happen. They aren't going to rewrite PF1, and also write PF2. They aren't going to keep two product lines going.
If you want a better version of PF1, then you need to get involved in the playtesting for PF2. That's what PF2 is for: a better version that incorporates 10+ years of game experience into the new product.
Well, then take that as input for PF2 -- but other than that rough edge I have what I need in PF1. I still support the development of PF2 -- and will definitely get a Core Rulebook when it's done to see what was done. Though, I've put about $800+ into PF1 and I'll be focused on getting my money's worth out of that. I'm not inclined to put much into PF2 until I do. But, I stress that I do very much encourage PF2 to be created. It's just a bunch of PF1 books just came out and I want to get something out of them as well as the rest of my library.
It's just a bunch of PF1 books just came out and I want to get something out of them as well as the rest of my library.
There are people on these boards who have stated that they have enough material (like prewritten adventures, quests, etc) that they won't get finished with it all in their lifetime.
Paizo could go out of business tomorrow, and you'd still get your money's worth out of those books. Nothing that happens to Paizo or PF2 will change a single word of what you've already bought. You can play forever without them publishing a single new page.
In fact, you might find that you can fill out your collecting at fairly low prices as people switch from PF1 to PF2 and sell their older materials.
And if you write your own adventures, then you never have to buy a single new book to keep playing the rest of your life.
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It's just a bunch of PF1 books just came out and I want to get something out of them as well as the rest of my library.There are people on these boards who have stated that they have enough material (like prewritten adventures, quests, etc) that they won't get finished with it all in their lifetime.
Paizo could go out of business tomorrow, and you'd still get your money's worth out of those books. Nothing that happens to Paizo or PF2 will change a single word of what you've already bought. You can play forever without them publishing a single new page.
In fact, you might find that you can fill out your collecting at fairly low prices as people switch from PF1 to PF2 and sell their older materials.
And if you write your own adventures, then you never have to buy a single new book to keep playing the rest of your life.
As long as I can find players. When PF2 comes out, PF1 loses its "new and improved" label and that is transfered to PF2. Everyone likes "new and improved", which is how manufactures get people to migrate to version n+1. Sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad.
A major point to this blog thread is that I think minor adjustments to Paizo's strategy for marketing PF1 would yield big results. If the same exact strategy is used for PF2 as has been used with PF1 today, Paizo might get the same exact results as with PF1 -- except just maybe those of us with a lot invested in PF1 might stick with it and not move on to PF2.
That would be GMs and advanced players. I, for one am not comfortable, for example, with the changes to the action economy. What if the situation that evolves is that the people who buy the most stuff have such a finacial commitment to PF1 that they don't buy much PF2 and slow down or stop PF1 purchases because Paizo has said it's on the way out? What then?
I'm saying with relatively minor tweeks PF1 is more than able to take on 5e -- that the majority problem is that better, more sophisicated marketing is needed.
Big gamble to do a complete rewrite with the HOPE of building a better mouse trap. Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?
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Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?
Limited resources and the risk of detracting from PF2's success.
Extensively marketing an RPG you're not interested in developing new material for is a mistake. Even if by putting resources into promoting PF1 they were to pick up the odd new PF1 player here and there, it's likely those people would have picked up PF2 if that had been where the marketing effort had gone. What are those new people going to do now? Buy all the pocket edition rulebooks but nothing else from Paizo (who have moved on).
Paizo are going to be developing PF2 support material - it really doesn't make sense for them to promote PF1. That's going to be a more direct competitor for them than 5E is.
The fact they're continuing to keep first edition in print (I believe via pocket editions and PDFs only) is an acknowledgement of the cohort of fans who want to continue playing it and who want to be able to introduce new people to it. It's unlikely it's ever going to be a huge money-spinner for them - Paizo's ongoing success will depend on PF2, SF and the card game.
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Why? Because at this point for Paizo, it's PF2 doing good or they'll have to throw in the towel, scale back and reconfigure their business into being the Starfinder company (with some Pathfinder sprinkled on the top).
Achieving that is by no means helped by investing into marketing two "similar but different" product lines at the same time and making your products compete with each other. That's what killed TSR, remember?
Matter of fact, no amount of marketing will change the fact that D&D is the Kleenex of RPGs and that it is much better entry product than PF will ever be. Even the PF Beginner Box is a clunky contraption compared to core 5e books. 5e is easy to pick up by casual players, compared to PF1. It doesn't have the intimidating bloat which, believe it or not, does scare away people. And getting easily picked up by casual players is extremely important these days, because RPGs are losing full time to board games due to the issue of high entry bar.
If your hope is that Paizo should keep plugging PF1 and that when PF2 tanks they'll swiftly go back to producing more of what you like, well, ain't happening. Publishing a new edition is crossing the Rubicon, you don't go back. WotC didn't go back to 3.5 when 4e tanked, they just gritted their teeth and reinvented the product line. Paizo's only hope is doing exactly that.
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...WotC didn't bother making any quickstarts/beginner boxes/lite versions of 5e.
Excuse me whilst I gleefully jump on a trivial error rather than acknowledging your actual point. That's how the internet works, right?
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...WotC didn't bother making any quickstarts/beginner boxes/lite versions of 5e.Excuse me whilst I gleefully jump on a trivial error rather than acknowledging your actual point. That's how the internet works, right?
This is the moment when I start digging through your posting history to find enough dirt to BURY YOU THE NEXT TIME YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF MR GEDDES!
Man, so much digging.
Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?Limited resources and the risk of detracting from PF2's success.
Extensively marketing an RPG you're not interested in developing new material for is a mistake. Even if by putting resources into promoting PF1 they were to pick up the odd new PF1 player here and there, it's likely those people would have picked up PF2 if that had been where the marketing effort had gone. What are those new people going to do now? Buy all the pocket edition rulebooks but nothing else from Paizo (who have moved on).
Paizo are going to be developing PF2 support material - it really doesn't make sense for them to promote PF1. That's going to be a more direct competitor for them than 5E is.
The fact they're continuing to keep first edition in print (I believe via pocket editions and PDFs only) is an acknowledgement of the cohort of fans who want to continue playing it and who want to be able to introduce new people to it. It's unlikely it's ever going to be a huge money-spinner for them - Paizo's ongoing success will depend on PF2, SF and the card game.
Based on what? Who says that's a fore gone conclusion? I'm going to repeat. I believe that any decline in PF1 sales has more to do with not marketing it properly.
Tons of investment for PF2 vs much smaller investment to tweek the product and marketing strategy for PF1?
The track record for PF1 is known and should be tweeked and used to provide a revenue stream to give PF2 development more runway. Learn more from PF1 to help PF2. Not fair to halt development on PF1 after recently releasing so much new material. The end-of-life announcement for PF1 may have created a problem for PF2. Company's going to benefit more by standing firmly behind both products, spending much less on PF1 -- but continueing development. I'm sure that right now PF1 is keeping the lights on.
I think Paizo would compete with D&D 5e just fine using 1st edition if they would market the following major advantages:
1. Printable, interactive and beautifully illustrated maps that you can play on during gaming sessions.
In my games, both PF and 5e, I've got into the habit of drawing maps on two of these stuck together, using dry-erase or wet-erase markers. I only draw the bits the PCs have seen, expanding the map as they explore, because otherwise I'm giving the players metagame knowledge. So when I'm running Jade Regent, I'll be consulting the castle map from the book (or a printout from the book/PDF) and drawing rooms one at a time.
Does Paizo actually provide a service that works better than this? Is that what this is?
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Based on what? Who says that's a fore gone conclusion? I'm going to repeat. I believe that any decline in PF1 sales has more to do with not marketing it properly.Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?Limited resources and the risk of detracting from PF2's success.
Extensively marketing an RPG you're not interested in developing new material for is a mistake. Even if by putting resources into promoting PF1 they were to pick up the odd new PF1 player here and there, it's likely those people would have picked up PF2 if that had been where the marketing effort had gone. What are those new people going to do now? Buy all the pocket edition rulebooks but nothing else from Paizo (who have moved on).
Paizo are going to be developing PF2 support material - it really doesn't make sense for them to promote PF1. That's going to be a more direct competitor for them than 5E is.
The fact they're continuing to keep first edition in print (I believe via pocket editions and PDFs only) is an acknowledgement of the cohort of fans who want to continue playing it and who want to be able to introduce new people to it. It's unlikely it's ever going to be a huge money-spinner for them - Paizo's ongoing success will depend on PF2, SF and the card game.
I don’t really know what specifically you’re objecting to here. These are my central claims:
1. Paizo have limited marketing resources
2. Gaining a fan of an RPG is more profitable if that RPG has lots of future products planned than if it only has a back catalog
3. Those people you’re imagining would take up PF1 if only it were marketed better will probably take up PF2if it’s marketed well
4. PF1 is going to compete with PF2
5. It’s a more direct competitor than 5E
6. Paizo are keeping PF1 in print for the benefit of those who don’t want to switch, not as a way to attract new players
7. Sales of Starfinder, PF2 and PACG are going to be crucial to paizo’s success in coming years. Sales of PF1 books will barely register
Which of those do you think is wrong?
They’re all opinions based on my knowledge of business and from reading/listening to Paizo staff and fans over the years.
Pretty much nothing in business is a foregone conclusion (certainly nothing interesting).
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I'm going to repeat. I believe that any decline in PF1 sales has more to do with not marketing it properly.
That’s got to be wrong. There’s currently half a dozen new PF1 books releasing every couple of months plus an enormous back catalog. Going forward, there’ll be nothing new and the same back catalog.
There can’t be anything BUT a decline in sales. No amount of marketing is going to replace the interest they generate from continuous, ongoing support across disparate product lines.
Also, remember how central the subscription model is to paizo’s success. Currently their subscribers pad out their revenue very handily. There’s nothing to subscribe to for PF1 after August next year - they can’t keep selling the same books over and over.
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...WotC didn't bother making any quickstarts/beginner boxes/lite versions of 5e.Excuse me whilst I gleefully jump on a trivial error rather than acknowledging your actual point. That's how the internet works, right?
This is the moment when I start digging through your posting history to find enough dirt to BURY YOU THE NEXT TIME YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF MR GEDDES!
Man, so much digging.
Once you get old enough, you begin to forget what you’ve previously declared to be obviously right.
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Once you get old enough, you begin to forget what you’ve previously declared to be obviously right.
Steve, you should have known by now
*digs harder*it's not about being right or wrong
*finds something*
it's about making the other person think that they're wrong
*bumps into a bulette*
bonus points if they were actually right the whole time.
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A major point to this blog thread is that I think minor adjustments to Paizo's strategy for marketing PF1 would yield big results. If the same exact strategy is used for PF2 as has been used with PF1 today, Paizo might get the same exact results as with PF1 -- except just maybe those of us with a lot invested in PF1 might stick with it and not move on to PF2.
<snip>
I'm saying with relatively minor tweeks PF1 is more than able to take on 5e -- that the majority problem is that better, more sophisicated marketing is needed.
Big gamble to do a complete rewrite with the HOPE of building a better mouse trap. Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?
The Playtest Rulebook has been printed and Amazon is ready to ship it out in the next two weeks. Do you really think that they're going to cancel everything and send hundreds of thousands of brand-new books to the landfill?
Whatever your belief about "minor adjustments" being all that's needed for "big results", Paizo doesn't believe that. They do not believe that "minor tweaks" are going to make them more profitable.
And if "more sophisticated" marketing is all they need, it's certainly not going to come from threads in a player forum. "More sophisticated" marketing means people with the skills, experience, and education in corporate gaming marketing.
If you have those skills and experience, you might want to apply for a position on their corporate marketing staff. Otherwise, you're not going to stop them dead in their tracks. One player posting in a forum isn't going to suddenly be made manager of that department and oversee their marketing staff.
And really, do you actually believe that their entire staff has spent the last few years just sitting there, not making any 'simple' adjustments? It's a disservice to Paizo staff to paint them as so clueless and incompetent that they haven't ever thought of the 'minor adjustments' or tried any of the 'simple tweaks' that would shoot them past WotC in sales.
They have spent years developing PF2 and it's going live in just a couple weeks. If you want to see Pathfinder thrive, your best option, aside from getting a job in their marketing department, is do everything you can to get your friends and potential new players involved in PF2.
Though, I've put about $800+ into PF1 and I'll be focused on getting my money's worth out of that.
*Blinks*
*Looks over at his THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS of Pathfinder books*
*LAUGHS HYSTERICALLY*
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Why not rename Pathfinder something?
What that is would take some thought -- but it should immediately draw out vivid mental images and be thought provoking. Dungeons &
Dragons is thought provoking. Pathfinder is not. There's the major advantage -- D&D has a great, vivid name. Even though the art work is leaps and bounds much better in Pathfinder, it just isn't enough to recover. Pathfinder should be on top.
Wait...your big suggestion is the product, that at one time was beating DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS in sales and was for a long time the second highest selling TTRPG in the market and that has existed IN that market for almost a decade: CHANGE IT'S NAME.
THAT'S your idea.
OK.
Why not rename Pathfinder something?
What that is would take some thought -- but it should immediately draw out vivid mental images and be thought provoking. Dungeons &
Dragons is thought provoking. Pathfinder is not. There's the major advantage -- D&D has a great, vivid name. Even though the art work is leaps and bounds much better in Pathfinder, it just isn't enough to recover. Pathfinder should be on top.Wait...your big suggestion is the product, that at one time was beating DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS in sales and was for a long time the second highest selling TTRPG in the market and that has existed IN that market for almost a decade: CHANGE IT'S NAME.
THAT'S your idea.
OK.
Yes. That's what I'm saying. People didn't like 4e and flocked to Pathfinder. Doesn't say anything about the name. Invalid cause and effect.
Really, though, doesn't Dungeons & Dragons draw out a stronger image than the name Pathfinder? Come on.
The name Pathfinder is a problem for marketing the game.
Though, I've put about $800+ into PF1 and I'll be focused on getting my money's worth out of that.*Blinks*
*Looks over at his THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS of Pathfinder books*
*LAUGHS HYSTERICALLY*
I bought mostly PDF files. I thought about people who bought the hard back versions ... How do those of you who did feel about how Paizo is preserving your investiment?
The answer to that question might determine future PF1 and PF2 sales.
Not saying Paizo is doing anything horribly bad, but there's an opportunity for a win-win situation. Continue a slow but reasonable rate of PF1 development, while taking off like a rocket cranking out PF2.
A major point to this blog thread is that I think minor adjustments to Paizo's strategy for marketing PF1 would yield big results. If the same exact strategy is used for PF2 as has been used with PF1 today, Paizo might get the same exact results as with PF1 -- except just maybe those of us with a lot invested in PF1 might stick with it and not move on to PF2.
<snip>
I'm saying with relatively minor tweeks PF1 is more than able to take on 5e -- that the majority problem is that better, more sophisicated marketing is needed.
Big gamble to do a complete rewrite with the HOPE of building a better mouse trap. Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?
The Playtest Rulebook has been printed and Amazon is ready to ship it out in the next two weeks. Do you really think that they're going to cancel everything and send hundreds of thousands of brand-new books to the landfill?
That is a horribly wrong interpretation and mischaracterization of everything I've been saying and out of context. Shame on you!
A major point to this blog thread is that I think minor adjustments to Paizo's strategy for marketing PF1 would yield big results. If the same exact strategy is used for PF2 as has been used with PF1 today, Paizo might get the same exact results as with PF1 -- except just maybe those of us with a lot invested in PF1 might stick with it and not move on to PF2.
<snip>
I'm saying with relatively minor tweeks PF1 is more than able to take on 5e -- that the majority problem is that better, more sophisicated marketing is needed.
Big gamble to do a complete rewrite with the HOPE of building a better mouse trap. Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?
Whatever your belief about "minor adjustments" being all that's needed for "big results", Paizo doesn't believe that. They do not believe that "minor tweaks" are going to make them more profitable.
How do you know what Paizo believes? Work there?
If yes, that's one thing -- but if not kind of taking a big leap there talking for Paizo. I'm just expressing my own opinion.
A major point to this blog thread is that I think minor adjustments to Paizo's strategy for marketing PF1 would yield big results. If the same exact strategy is used for PF2 as has been used with PF1 today, Paizo might get the same exact results as with PF1 -- except just maybe those of us with a lot invested in PF1 might stick with it and not move on to PF2.
<snip>
I'm saying with relatively minor tweeks PF1 is more than able to take on 5e -- that the majority problem is that better, more sophisicated marketing is needed.
Big gamble to do a complete rewrite with the HOPE of building a better mouse trap. Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?
And if "more sophisticated" marketing is all they need, it's certainly not going to come from threads in a player forum. "More sophisticated" marketing means people with the skills, experience, and education in corporate gaming marketing.
If you have those skills and experience, you might want to apply for a position on their corporate marketing staff. Otherwise, you're not going to stop them dead in their tracks. One player posting in a forum isn't going to suddenly be made manager of that department and oversee their marketing staff.
And really, do you actually believe that their entire staff has spent the last few years just sitting there, not making any 'simple' adjustments? It's a disservice to Paizo staff to paint them as so clueless and incompetent that they haven't ever thought of the 'minor adjustments' or tried any of the...
No, I am just brain storming ideas they may not have thought of because I have a different perspective. That doesn't make them stupid, unless they started wearing a chip on their shoulder and became too unwilling to consider another point of view.
We're trying to be constructive here, but it doesn't sound like you're helping at all. Going off all the time.
And, yes, the purpose of these blogs is to provide Paizo, ultimately, with customer feedback. That's why they have blogs.
I'm going to repeat. I believe that any decline in PF1 sales has more to do with not marketing it properly.That’s got to be wrong. There’s currently half a dozen new PF1 books releasing every couple of months plus an enormous back catalog. Going forward, there’ll be nothing new and the same back catalog.
There can’t be anything BUT a decline in sales. No amount of marketing is going to replace the interest they generate from continuous, ongoing support across disparate product lines.
Also, remember how central the subscription model is to paizo’s success. Currently their subscribers pad out their revenue very handily. There’s nothing to subscribe to for PF1 after August next year - they can’t keep selling the same books over and over.
Right, that's taken out of context. I can't pack everything I want to say in this blog into each sentence I write. You got to read the entire entry and consider the other ones.
I've been suggesting that Paizo continue a slower but steady rate of development for PF1 basically during the entire life time of PF2 -- or, maybe, go end-of-life for PF1, say, 5 years into the life time of PF2.
Why not do that? PF1 isn't going to fall off the edge of the Earth. People will still be around to play as long as it doesn't look like an abandonned product.
That will make people feel better about buying (investing in) Paizo products -- specifically PF1 and PF2.
But, if I find that I just can't play PF1 anymore because I can't find players -- it's going to give me a LOT of pause before I jump on the PF2 bandwagon.
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Right, that's taken out of context. I can't pack everything I want to say in this blog into each sentence I write. You got to read the entire entry and consider the other ones.
I've been suggesting that Paizo continue a slower but steady rate of development for PF1 basically during the entire life time of PF2 -- or, maybe, go end-of-life for PF1, say, 5 years into the life time of PF2.
Why not do that? PF1 isn't going to fall off the edge of the Earth. People will still be around to play as long as it doesn't look like an abandonned product.
That will make people feel better about buying (investing in) Paizo products -- specifically PF1 and PF2.
But, if I find that I just can't play PF1 anymore because I can't find players -- it's going to give me a LOT of pause before I jump on the PF2 bandwagon.
You say I’m taking you out of context - I was specifically referring to your claims about “marketing”, not your suggestion to support multiple editions of Pathfinder. The latter is a separate suggestion and would be a poor strategy for different reasons:
The CEO of Paizo was the person at Wizards of the Coast tasked with analysing TSR’s business when WotC bought them out.
There were a number of factors that led toTSR’s demise, not a single cause. Nonetheless, she found that the most significant factor was their decision to split the fan base by supporting multiple campaign settings. Their company ended up producing material for half a dozen product lines which essentially competed with themselves. That lowered sales for nearly every product and thus led to declining profits and ultimately losses (you either end up with lots of unsold books or you cut your print runs which drives up cost per book - reducing your profit).
Supporting multiple game systems isn’t identical but it’s very similar. These issues weighed on their minds before releasing Starfinder - they eventually decided that the genres were distinct enough that those PF fans they lost to SF would be more than compensated for by:
1. fans of SF they otherwise wouldn’t get
2. fans of PF they pick up through SF
Both cohorts will be much smaller if they continue to support PF1. However, take up of PF2 by current fans would be lower if Paizo were to continue to also publish for PF1.
Based on what? Who says that's a fore gone conclusion? I'm going to repeat. I believe that any decline in PF1 sales has more to do with not marketing it properly.Why not at the same time try simple product and marketing changes to reposition PF1?Limited resources and the risk of detracting from PF2's success.
Extensively marketing an RPG you're not interested in developing new material for is a mistake. Even if by putting resources into promoting PF1 they were to pick up the odd new PF1 player here and there, it's likely those people would have picked up PF2 if that had been where the marketing effort had gone. What are those new people going to do now? Buy all the pocket edition rulebooks but nothing else from Paizo (who have moved on).
Paizo are going to be developing PF2 support material - it really doesn't make sense for them to promote PF1. That's going to be a more direct competitor for them than 5E is.
The fact they're continuing to keep first edition in print (I believe via pocket editions and PDFs only) is an acknowledgement of the cohort of fans who want to continue playing it and who want to be able to introduce new people to it. It's unlikely it's ever going to be a huge money-spinner for them - Paizo's ongoing success will depend on PF2, SF and the card game.
I don’t really know what specifically you’re objecting to here. These are my central claims:
1. Paizo have limited marketing resources
2. Gaining a fan of an RPG is more profitable if that RPG has lots of future products planned than if it only has a back catalog
3. Those people you’re imagining would take up PF1 if only it were marketed better will probably take up PF2if it’s marketed well
4. PF1 is going to compete with PF2
5. It’s a more direct competitor than 5E
6. Paizo are keeping PF1 in print for the benefit of those who don’t want to switch, not as a way to attract new players
7. Sales...
1. Really? They've been cranking out a ton of stuff for PF1 because it produces revenue -- so now we're going to move all the chips over to PF2? PF2 is a big unknown and may not be as well received -- so I don't recommend putting all the chips there.
2. Who guarantees PF2 is going to have more market share? Where do you get all this future knowledge?
3. Really? Maybe and maybe not. Until PF2 actually hits the market or data is collected, it's a big unknown. Could flop like 4e did. I'm sure while 4e was developed that WotC thought it was the greatest thing. How did that turn out? I'm saying for many reasons, it is far too early to sunset PF1. Go ahead and make PF2, but don't stop PF1 development at least until you're sure you can afford to (and think about being nice to PF1 players).
4. Yes, PF1 will compete with PF2 and visa versa. That's a good thing. Paizo will make lots of money off that. Competition is good. That's a corner stone of our economy.
5. Yep, maybe. But, again, that's good not bad.
6. Paizo would be wise to go further than that and continue, albeit at a slower rate, to develop PF1 as they go full charge with PF2. It's not going to kill them.
7. Sales for PF1 and PF2 will be much more than either alone. Some people I've talked to think PF2 is for a younger generation player. I hope that's not true, but if it is, shutting down PF1 development might turn away an older generation of players -- probably resulting in a loss of revenue.
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Paizo have limited marketing resourcesReally? They've been cranking out a ton of stuff for PF1 because it produces revenue -- so now we're going to move all the chips over to PF2? PF2 is a big unknown and may not be as well received -- so I don't recommend putting all the chips there.
This isn’t a counter to what I said, so I don’t really have much by way of response. The fact they have limited resources is significant - half a marketing campaign is not necessarily half as effective. Also, splitting the message is going to cause confusion (especially amongst new PF2 players who may easily end up buying an incompatible PF1 book.
Gaining a fan of an RPG is more profitable if that RPG has lots of future products planned than if it only has a back catalog2. Who guarantees PF2 is going to have more market share? Where do you get all this future knowledge?
Again, this doesn’t address my actual claim. However, for the record, there is no guarantee and I don’t claim any future knowledge. I have experience and theoretical knowledge and Paizo have considerably more than I do (as well as a wealth of data pertinent to this, specific industry).
FWIW, I consider it obvious that sales of PF2 will be greater than sales of PF1 going forward. Note that 4E outsold 3.5 despite being ultimately unsuccessful - there is inherent value in being new.
Those people you’re imagining would take up PF1 if only it were marketed better will probably take up PF2if it’s marketed wellReally? Maybe and maybe not. Until PF2 actually hits the market or data is collected, it's a big unknown. Could flop like 4e did. I'm sure while 4e was developed that WotC thought it was the greatest thing. How did that turn out? I'm saying for many reasons, it is far too early to sunset PF1. Go ahead and make PF2, but don't stop PF1 development at least until you're sure you can afford to (and think about being nice to PF1 players).
Yes, really. The merits of the system are irrelevant in this context - I was speaking about the cohort of new customers who see the marketing you want done for PF1 and take it up.
My claim is that if they’d seen marketing for PF2 they’d take that up instead.
PF1 is going to compete with PF2Yes, PF1 will compete with PF2 and visa versa. That's a good thing. Paizo will make lots of money off that. Competition is good. That's a corner stone of our economy.
This is a serious misunderstanding of an economic theory (or a misapplication, really). Competition with yourself isn’t good - it may be good for the consumer, but it’s definitely not good for the self-competing producer. (In fact, “competition is good” is an arguable position anyway, but probably not on Paizo.com).
It’s a more direct competitor than 5EYep, maybe. But, again, that's good not bad.
No, it’s bad.
Being a more direct competitor means it’s more likely to take market share. I’m not actually convinced Paizo should be trying to take market share from WotC anyhow - they definitely aren’t going to do themselves any favours by trying to please one segment of the market with two competing products though.
Paizo are keeping PF1 in print for the benefit of those who don’t want to switch, not as a way to attract new playersPaizo would be wise to go further than that and continue, albeit at a slower rate, to develop PF1 as they go full charge with PF2. It's not going to kill them.
I think it would be a huge strain on the staff. It may not kill them, but I bet their working life would be worse in many ways.
The only people who really benefit from your proposal are those of us who wish they weren’t making PF2. And following this course of action could well prevent us from ever switching over.
Sales of Starfinder, PF2 and PACG are going to be crucial to paizo’s success in coming years. Sales of PF1 books will barely registerSales for PF1 and PF2 will be much more than either alone. Some people I've talked to think PF2 is for a younger generation player. I hope that's not true, but if it is, shutting down PF1 development might turn away an older generation of players -- probably resulting in a loss of revenue.
I think the loss of future sales by having a clean break will be eclipsed by the sales of new product. Anecdotal evidence can be seductive - we all tend to think that we are typical, whereas almost nobody is actually “average”.
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I'll share what might be a controversial opinion, but it's true for my group of 7+ (that have been gaming together for over twenty years): we don't give a crap what gaming stores do, and have no interest in stepping foot into another comic book store.
We buy all of our books/PDFs online, and couldn't be happier.
Additionally, as a passionate supporter of PF1E, I am also confident and comfortable with the fact that PF1E is about to die. Paizo has released such volumes of material that we could continue playing PF1E for decades, and the fact that they'll continue to sell us copies in digital form years from now is more than I could ask for.
Paizo can't do what you're asking for. If they're going to survive, they need to innovate and move forward. I may not have personally agreed with their decision to move to 2E, but it's done.