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If you took these two ATs can you use your wisdom for improvised weapons?
empty hand is worded so terribly that it doesn't seem like it is, but it seems like it should and their are many things about it that aren't clear and have been clarified against the wording.
So I disagree with you on that, so assuming you can do both does anyone have an answer for me.
I don't want to argue with you about that. I have had this argument on this board before. It is my opinion and the opinion of most people I play with that how you are reading the modification rules is wrong. I know it isn't a popular opinion, but if you want to know why I believe you have misinterpreted the modification rules you can do a search for that thread.
So assuming you can do both is there anything I am missing about the sensei and empty hand.
You can't do both, they do not stack.
A character can take more than one archetype (sometimes called “stacking” archetypes) and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
Monk of the Empty Hand alters flurry of blows. Sensei replaces it with advice, aka bardic performance.
Now, if your group is ignoring that rule, that's one thing. But don't try and pretend like what you're doing is actually allowed normally. Also, you still can't use your Wisdom mod to attack with improvised weapons unless your DM allows that as well, since insightful strike only affects unarmed strikes or monk weapons.
Like I said I'm not going to argue that. I have a post on this site giving a half dozen reason why I think you are misreading that rule. It literally dose not say what you are interrupting it as and all the examples given don't interpret it that way. It is ok you don't have to agree with me, but you also don't have to assert that how you interpret it is correct when I have clearly stated I don't want to discuss that.
So the obvious question is there a way to interpret improvised weapons as monk weapons for the empty hand monk. Or is there any rulings that clear up EHM. I imagine not but was wondering if there was perhaps something that I was missing.
So since this is the rules forum, you 100% can't stack them.
The Sensei replaces flurry of blows, the Monk of the Empty Hand modifies Flurry of Blows. You can't modify an ability you don't have, therefore you can't take Monk of the Empty Hand once you've decided to take Sensei.
HAVING SAID THAT:
Let's assume for now that you've checked with your GM for you game and it's AOK for the game you're playing.
How would people interpret this assuming it does work? (Bearing in mind there isn't an official rule)
Personally I'd say yes you can use your WIS modifier for improvised weapons, however I'd probably say you ONLY get your WIS modifier when using improvised weapons or unarmed strikes, not when using normal "monk" weapons. That seems to fit the theme without too much trouble.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
I would say no it does not allow you to.
One allows you to use Wis in place of Str or Dex to attack with unarmed strikes or monk weapons.
One allows you to use improvised weapons (but not "as" monk weapons)
So if they stack, which upon reading the FAQ (been out of the game a long while so had to catch up) I would say they do not (but for the question you asked we are saying they do) you could use your Wis for unarmed strikes but not with improvised weapons
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The problem you're having with this question is that it's been answered as a "rules question".
Seriously just change it to "advice" or "homebrew" and you'll get more answers.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
So the Bold part: "However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features."
Let's change some words shall we: "However, if (Monk of the Empty Hand) alters the way the parent class feature works, such as (Flurry of Blows), you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features." (Sensei replaces flurry of blows)
Technically it's not replacing one of the sub-features, it's replacing ALL the sub-features. Since ALL would cover ANY you can't take it.
However it also says GMs can allow you to take them on a case-by-case basis, so once again let's assume you've discussed this and it's fine, so let's get back to your question about improvised weapons getting WIS to attack.
The rules answer is: No. It doesn't say you can, so you can't.
But since this isn't a rules question, it's a home-brew question, let's work out whether it seems un-balanced.
I'm actually torn on this one: On the one hand it's very thematic to let you use WIS with improvised weapons - On the other hand bardic performance and WIS to hit are both bonuses to hit that would stack, which seems like it could be un-balanced pretty quickly.
