#9-22 Grotto of the Deluged God: GM Discussion


GM Discussion

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Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

pjrogers wrote:


So, the dragon can not leave on its own because of its elemental nature.

However, an unconscious dragon can be transported out on the swan boat without any difficulty?

What if the dragon has surrendered and is still conscious? Can it travel out on the swan boat while still being unable to swim or fly under its own power?

The swan boat is powerful enough to escape the pull, while the dragon is not. So the easiest course of action is to negotiate with them to ride out on the swan boat, assuming it is not destroyed. Of course, the dragon may be too proud to ride the boat like a lesser being...

**

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
The swan boat is powerful enough to escape the pull, while the dragon is not. So the easiest course of action is to negotiate with them to ride out on the swan boat, assuming it is not destroyed. Of course, the dragon may be too proud to ride the boat like a lesser being...

Sorry, I don't buy it. I don't see any evidence that the swan boat is more "powerful" than the dragon. It seems to be a fairly fragile thing, destroyed by only three collisions with the walls of the grotto (such impacts do 1d6/2d6 nonlethal damage to swimming PCs).

In fact the harder I look at this section of the scenario, the larger the plot hole seems to get. For example, the dragon's tactics indicate that it has no trouble flying in the grotto but it apparently can not fly out with its 150 ft fly speed. There are also no limitations on the PCs using fly or levitate in the grotto.

In terms of the scenario's plot, it wouldn't actually make any difference if the dragon would easily travel in and out of the grotto. It could still demand some favor or task from those PCs who swore fealty to it, and the scenario's "bad boon" would remain basically unchanged.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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The boat is not more powerful than the dragon, it just doesn't have to deal with the extra pull of the rift that planar creatures do. If this is a deal breaker for your immersion, don't run it.

Edit: Here's a good analogy. A creature in a web cannot pull itself out, while one outside the web has better leverage and is able to pull the other free.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Newcastle aka Tim Schneider 908

Gabrielle wrote:
Tim Schneider wrote:
Have yet to run but that negative boon is just hideously bad - especially for a tactic that at first read seemed perfectly reasonable. It's bad enough I'm hesitant to run it because I think it'll sap all the fun out of the session if it happens. An ominous "brine dragon will remember this" boon would be cool, but that one... ouch!

I think it's okay to take steps as a GM to make sure it doesn't happen. Maybe make the dragon extra insecure and have it attack as soon as anyone doubts its sovereignty. That's pretty much in there already. Or if they want to bow to it, remind them that they'd have to forsake their vows to their gods. Or maybe it tells them to prove their loyalty by slaying a party member or something.

I don't think it's too much GM-interference to try to guide them out of the noose, so to speak. "Are you sure that's what you want to do?" is a question GMs ask all the time. And then your party can have a good laugh about "what if we'd decided to obey the dragon" when they read the chronicle sheet.

Thanks for the extra info on what it may demand. As I interpreted it first with just basically offering lip-service to it's greatness my players to cross their fingers behind their backs and paying lip-service to him then leave high-fiving that they outsmarted a dragon.

I'll give it a run with a more in-depth set of demands, try to make the party realize it's more binding & make up a few oaths that should at least make the party realize they're agreeing to some serious stuff rather than just stroking the dragon's ego until he lets them past.

Shadow Lodge ****

Secondary success condition
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No where in the scenario can I find why the players would seek to convince the cultists from the Cult of the Eye to consider an alliance with the Society or the Concordance of Elements. As this is one of the secondary conditions surely there should be some hint in the scenario. It does not seem to right to penalise the PCs for something they have no idea to do.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Not all success conditions are spelled out to the characters. Convincing the cultists to be allies is an alternate option if defeating/befriending the dragon fails. Clever PCs that think of recruiting allies get a benefit, but it's not the only way to earn both prestige.

Shadow Lodge ****

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Not all success conditions are spelled out to the characters. Convincing the cultists to be allies is an alternate option if defeating/befriending the dragon fails. Clever PCs that think of recruiting allies get a benefit, but it's not the only way to earn both prestige.

I understand it is not the only way but to have it with no hint to even try it does not seem right. I guess it was in the original writing of the scenario but due to other changes didn't appear like the changing of locations on the ship map.

** Venture-Agent, France—Paris aka 勝20100

I run that scenario last Tuesday.

The PC get an impressive amount of cure light potions and wands.

I didn’t get why some of the undead have wayfinders as those are supposed to be sailors.

Most DC were low for a 4-5 level party (there was a level 1 in it).

When they get into the cave, I didn’t know how many rolls they had to succeed to get into the heart of the cave. I came up with two success. The boat almost broke when they got out.
I didn’t look how big a swan boat was, so was not ready for that. That matters as the PC are on it when they get in front of the dragon. That encounter would start with them on the ship if it is not destroyed.

I forgot the cave was dim light.

Player ask the Tempest Monarch what did he fight, the 4 player adjustment indicates he fought something and became fatigued and lost HP, I came up with the idea that it was an Air Elemental.
One PC failed his bluff check to pretend to swear fealty, so the dragon attacked. It lashed out on the PC that tried to lie to him.

The dragon tactics are once again not very bright, flying then trying to use its line breath weapon rather than doing the inverse… (it could probably catch two PC by breathing first).

Even with me rolling a 1 on the dragon init and expecting the fight to be over in a round (13 hp of damage to do before it surrenders!) but most of the PC simply buffed on the first round. When the dragon was flying, and almost none of them had ranged weapon, I was thinking they could be in trouble but the dragon tactics says it would use its natural attacks, probably getting in range for a beating. The first level PC used magic missile and was the only one that did damage, so at round 3, the dragon attacked and almost bite is head off.

The illusion is large so the PC put themselves to flank it before it flied away, but it is in reality medium. I put him in a scare where he couldn’t take an AoO, no idea how I should have done that. Probably should have decided which real square he was on beforehand.

They studied the anomaly, got info from the dragon that surrendered, and didn’t look at how to get it out, so basically they just left it there. And warned the VC so the next team would not get into trouble.

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