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Hi everyone, I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the interaction of Mythic School and Forewarned (Divination School 1st Level power).
Mythic School:
Quote: When determining the effects of your arcane school powers, you’re considered 4 levels higher. This increases the effects of powers you have access to, but doesn’t grant you powers at a lower level than normal. If you have an arcane school power that can be used multiple times per day, such as blinding ray, you gain a number of extra uses of that power equal half your tier (minimum 1). You must have the arcane school class feature to select this ability. Forewarned:
Quote:
You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
What exactly counts as an "arcane school power" for the purposes of Mythic School? Does the entire Forewarned special ability count as a single power? Or is the highlighted text considered separate?
Will a level 16 wizard with Mythic School have access to the 20th level capstone?
Cheers, and thanks for your time! :)
Mythic School
mythic stuff can be over the top and a bit dramatic. It is mythic.
20th level powers at level 16? NO. From your quote of Mythic School, "but doesn’t grant you powers at a lower level than normal."
What it does do for you is bump the caster level used in calculating uses per day 4 higher, etc.
Forewarned Initiative bonus is (WizLvl +4)/2 {Min 1}.
Diviner's Fortune bonus is (WizLvl +4)/2 {Min 1}.
You do not get your capstone early. Basically if there is a formula that says you get x per level you count as 4 levels higher for x. If it says you gain this at x level you do not get it 4 levels earlier. So for the forewarned you get +10 to your initiative at 16th level.
Choose; Perfect Preparation (saves lots of cash and eliminates caster class weakness), Competent Caster (don't fail concentration checks on non highest spell-level spells which may save your bacon and this power eliminates a caster class weakness), Crafting Mastery (if you spend a good percentage of your time crafting), Deep Understanding (extra info is handy).
Azothath & Mysterious Stranger:
I see. Thanks for the input! But would you happen to have some RAW text to back it up? Your interpretations make sense to me, but they leap over the other questions I asked and assume that the capstone (included in the Forewarned ability text) counts as a separate power, which is what I'm trying to figure out. :)
To explain what's causing me confusion: The school power rules text seems to imply that a "power" is the entire named special ability block, but it doesn't explicitly define the term anywhere. For example if you check the Conjuration: Extradimensional subschool text, it refers to "Summoner's Charm" and "Reshape Space" as individual powers:
Quote: Replacement Powers: The following school power replaces the summoner’s charm power of the conjuration school.
Reshape Space (Su)
Whenever you cast a spell that creates an extradimensional space or demiplane, increase the duration by a number of units (rounds, minutes, hours, etc.) equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1).
At 20th level, you can make one spell that creates an extradimensional space or demiplane permanent. You can have no more than one such spell made permanent in this way at a time. If you designate another spell as permanent, the previous permanent spell ends.
Now if we assume that the term means the entire special ability (as is implied), then the 20th level capstone of Forewarned isn't a separate power; It's just a bonus effect you get at level 20. In which case the Mythic School restrictions wouldn't prevent you from getting it early. The only thing it would prevent is getting something like Foretell (which you don't get access to until level 8).
Does that interpretation make sense?
I assume that (american) english is your native language based on colloquialisms used in your other posts.
on quoted text: I use the text from the ability and the copy you posted.
Interpretation: no, that logical generalization is incorrect.
The manner in which you are generalizing things and extending the meaning of the english conversational script is incorrect. Each "power" or ability or bolded new paragraph title and following regular face text is a separate ability(power) and is gained at the class level stated in the description.
As explained, Mythic School simply adds four to any calculation involving class level for school or class gained special abilities(powers).
For further explanation please refer to my profile and contact me for a professional exchange.
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I am not extending the meaning of anything:
Quote: When determining the effects of your arcane school powers, you’re considered 4 levels higher. This increases the effects of powers you have access to, but doesn’t grant you powers at a lower level than normal. If you have an arcane school power that can be used multiple times per day, such as blinding ray, you gain a number of extra uses of that power equal half your tier (minimum 1). You must have the arcane school class feature to select this ability. Note the context of how the bolded words are used.
The text references "arcane school power" and "power" in the same paragraph. It makes a lot of sense contextually that "power" is just a shorthand for "arcane school power".
Now, note how "arcane school power" is used to refer to blinding ray. This implies that "arcane school powers" are named special abilities. This pattern is repeated across several source books. I've given an example above. That means there's RAW basis for saying that the term "arcane school power" refers to the entire special ability block, and not just one snippet.
Now, if a power is the entire special ability block as implied in multiple places across different rulebooks, then Forewarned is a power that you get access to at level 1. It just gets added effects at level 20.
You already sighted the relevant rule.
This increases the effects of powers you have access to, but doesn’t grant you powers at a lower level than normal.
You normally get your capstone at 20th level. 16th level is lower than 20th level. Therefore you do not get it at 16th level. A sorcerer also gets spells at 1st level, but does not get access to higher level spells until he reaches the appropriate level. By your logic a 1st level sorcerer with a 28 CHA should be able to cast 9th level spells, this is obviously not the case.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: You already sighted the relevant rule.
This increases the effects of powers you have access to, but doesn’t grant you powers at a lower level than normal.
You normally get your capstone at 20th level. 16th level is lower than 20th level. Therefore you do not get it at 16th level. A sorcerer also gets spells at 1st level, but does not get access to higher level spells until he reaches the appropriate level. By your logic a 1st level sorcerer with a 28 CHA should be able to cast 9th level spells, this is obviously not the case.
Sorry, but that's a bad analogy. The rules clearly state that a spellcaster needs to have a high enough class level to cast a spell in order to benefit from bonus spell slots.
Did you read my explanation? Mythic School does say you can't get powers earlier than you normally would be able to. But if you go by the implied rules definition of "power", none of the wizard specialization school capstones are powers. They're expanded effects of powers you receive at first level.
Just to summarize:
FACT: The rules imply in multiple places that an "Arcane School Power" is a named special ability.
FACT: Contextual clues in the Mythic School text imply that "power" refers to an "Arcane School Power"
FACT: The 20th level wizard capstones are not named special abilities.
So with those three facts in mind, is the capstone even a power? Or is it something else? And if it's a power, can you explain why it's contradicting the implied definitions being used by the rules text in different books?
You've been given the correct answer.
Perfect Tommy wrote: You've been given the correct answer.
Can you please explain why it's correct given the points I've provided in my previous post?
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I know I'm going against popular opinion here, but I think, pure RAW, Confused Peon is right. Here's why;
* Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. These are then listed with a name and a type (Resistance (Ex) for example) - if you're identifing certain particular sentences within each of these as seperate "powers" then you'd need a name for that power; can you identify such a seperate name?
* The mythic school ability specifically references not gaining access to powers, but any you do have access to advancing as per the increased level.
* The listings of the powers sometimes indicate an advancement based on some regular level incriment, but often also indicate advancement at specific levels.
* The ones that list something different happening at 20th level do not indicate that this is a "new" power, but, just like things that happen at other specific levels, indicate that it is a new capability of the power.
Looking, for example, at Abjurations "Resistance" power; it starts at 5. But if we ignore anything that isn't a periodic increase, it would never increase. Instead, you get set level increases at level 11 and 20; to Resist 10, then to Immunity. By the reading that the others have given, the +4 levels would not apply to the 11th level capability either; since it is at a specific level (that happens to not be 20th, in this case), you would have to wait until your actual level was 11th. I'm certain that is not RAI, and pretty sure it isn't RAW either.
If these 20th level (or other) capabilities were listed as seperate powers, then (obviously) you would not gain them.
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That said, for game-balance reasons, a GM may choose to go against the RAW on this and disallow the 20th level manifestations of powers until the character is actually 20th level.
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ConfusedPeon wrote: Perfect Tommy wrote: You've been given the correct answer.
Can you please explain why it's correct given the points I've provided in my previous post? No, they cannot, because they are incorrect.
Your "capstone" isn't a separate power--it's part of Forewarned (Su). Mythic School doesn't grant a separate power--it increases your level for the purposes of powers you already have. You already have Forewarned (Su), so at 16th level you are treated as though you were 20th level.
If this were something like an oracle mystery or base class capstone, which manifest as distinct abilities, they'd be correct. I suspect that the other posters either (a) didn't check the text and assumed that school powers worked the same way; (b) didn't check at first and are now attempting to rationalize after the fact; or (c) don't care what the text says and feel like it "ought" to work that way.
But as it stands, you absolutely get a natural 20, every time*, once you hit 16th level with Mythic School.
*barring an antimagic field or something
merpius wrote: That said, for game-balance reasons, a GM may choose to go against the RAW on this and disallow the 20th level manifestations of powers until the character is actually 20th level. It's mythic. There ain't no balancing it.
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I'm in agreement with blahpers. Forewarned is the ability and what you get at 20th level is part of that ability. Now if you were a level 4 wizard with Mythic School you'd gain an initiative bonus with Forewarned and bonus to Diviner’s Fortune as if you were a level 8 wizard, but you wouldn't gain Scrying Adept as it is an entirely separate ability. If the level 20 feature of Forewarned was indeed a separate power it'd have something like (Sp) or (Su) next to it to designate what type of power it is but since it's part of Forewarned, it doesn't.
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I agree. For comparison, take a look at the text of the wizard variant multiclass:
School Power wrote: At 7th level, he gains the 1st-level powers of his chosen school. If any of those powers grant an extra effect at 20th level, the character does not gain that extra effect. This makes it crystal clear that the level 20 benefit is not a separate power - it is simply an "extra effect" of the 1st-level power Forewarned, which Mythic School increases.
blahpers wrote: merpius wrote: That said, for game-balance reasons, a GM may choose to go against the RAW on this and disallow the 20th level manifestations of powers until the character is actually 20th level. It's mythic. There ain't no balancing it. There are, however, GMs who *think* they can balance it! ;)
This increases the effects of powers you have access to, but doesn’t grant you powers at a lower level than normal.
Prior to the 20th level do you have the ability to treat it as if you rolled a 20: no.
That is a new ability; a new power.
Whatever abilities you have at 16th level you may continue and extend. But I find the wording sufficiently close too many other cases but I believe the preponderance of the evidence means that this interpretation is favored.
Nor do I think that karma beads, outlander missionary, or alchemical ingredients qualify you.
In short, 20th level refers to levels in that class, not casters level and I believe there's an faq to that point.
Perfect Tommy wrote: This increases the effects of powers you have access to, but doesn’t grant you powers at a lower level than normal.
Prior to the 20th level do you have the ability to treat it as if you rolled a 20: no.
That is a new ability; a new power.
Thanks for the input. But that does not seem to be how how the rule books have been using the term power, nor have you provided any basis for using a different definition of the term.
Just pointing out: I made this post because I am interested in clarifying what the rules actually mean, and not what they ought to mean.
Quote: Whatever abilities you have at 16th level you may continue and extend. But I find the wording sufficiently close too many other cases but I believe the preponderance of the evidence means that this interpretation is favored.
The rules text made no mention of "ability". The terms used were power and effect. And by all indications, "power" refers to Forewarned (Su), which you have access to at level 1.
Quote: Nor do I think that karma beads, outlander missionary, or alchemical ingredients qualify you.
In short, 20th level refers to levels in that class, not casters level and I believe there's an faq to that point.
Let's not get sidetracked. The question has nothing to do with caster level. Nor did any of the rules being referenced actually mention caster level.
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Anyway, thanks all! That pretty much clears things up for me.
Does an Arcane Savant 1 Diviner 19 get the power?
No.
Isn't that really all that needs to be said?
What does Arcane Savant have to do with this? It doesn't seem to advance your school at all, much less at 1st level and, even WRT caster level, it doesn't advance that at 1st level either. Did I miss something?
The Mythic School mythic ability specifically advances your Arcane school abilities.
The closest equivalent that I know about in prestige classes is Evangelist (with its Aligned Class (Ex) class ability). But that does not have the same verbiage, so it isn't a very useful comparison.
My apologies if you meant that post as a joke and I've gone and rebutted it. I am simply confused.
merpius wrote: blahpers wrote: merpius wrote: That said, for game-balance reasons, a GM may choose to go against the RAW on this and disallow the 20th level manifestations of powers until the character is actually 20th level. It's mythic. There ain't no balancing it. There are, however, GMs who *think* they can balance it! ;) I wish them luck!
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I agree that the “power” is forewarned and it should advance as a single unit. If the level 20 text was meant to be a different power, then it could have been a different power.
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