I've run into a hiccup in the equipment department with my Starfinder Society group.
The gist: my players want to buy flashlights, strip them of their batteries and plug them into their Diasporan sniper rifles (as these rifles max charge is 10, they believe that they can't plug the 20 charge ammo batteries in). Has/will this been/be addressed? Do I let them exploit this oversight? My gut says no but the rules seem to say yes
Sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere, but I have not seen this exact issue come up in anything I've read yet.
I think the understanding is that generally only weapons and power armor come with a removable battery. And maybe armor upgrades? You can't get 10-capacity batteries for 1 credit a piece. Right now there's no such thing as a 10-capacity removable battery.
The Level 1 Diasporan Rifle is a problem and probably ought to have 20 capacity and usage 2. Actually all those rifles should probably have usage 2 and twice the capacity. I'd actually argue for enforcing this in SFS, in the absence of any other coherent logic for these weapons. Alien Archive needs a whole bunch of errata, and we haven't seen any yet.
Someone else pointed out that there ought to be a separate category of "low-power battery" that costs 1 credit and can only be put into a limited selection of items (e.g. items in the "Technological Items" category). I like this idea, but obviously not currently SFS-legal.
I also strongly believe there should be an easy way to transfer charge between batteries without using MAGIC.
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I think the understanding is that generally only weapons and power armor come with a removable battery. And maybe armor upgrades? You can't get 10-capacity batteries for 1 credit a piece. Right now there's no such thing as a 10-capacity removable battery
That is not the understanding and that is not consistent with the rules. Per the rules you can in fact get 10-capacity batteries for 1 credit a piece.
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Look at table 7-9, I don't see a 10-capacity batty for 1 credit.
Considering the portable light, that has a 10-capcity battery, there is no way that equivalent of a 'D' battery is going to usable in any kind of powered weapon or armor.
We are still waiting for an official errata, but it will happen.
A spirited discussion can be found here.
Thanks all! I suppose I'll wait for the errata fixing the obvious oversight.
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Considering the portable light, that has a 10-capcity battery, there is no way that equivalent of a 'D' battery is going to usable in any kind of powered weapon or armor.
Except that per the rules that's exactly how it works. Specifically,
"Items with a specified usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices)."
They can be replaced, which inherently means they are extractable. The entry for batteries and technological items specifically references "Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices", which means that technological items use the same batteries as armor and weapons.
Just because you can't buy a battery with 10 charges does not mean you cannot buy an item that uses a 10 charge battery and extract the battery from it.
Could this be errata'd in the future? Of course, but its perfectly clear how it works right now, a 10 capacity battery from a technological item is the same as a 10 capacity battery for a weapon, just as a 20 capacity battery for a technological item is the same as a 20 capacity battery for a weapon.
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The Level 1 Diasporan Rifle is a problem and probably ought to have 20 capacity and usage 2. Actually all those rifles should probably have usage 2 and twice the capacity. I'd actually argue for enforcing this in SFS, in the absence of any other coherent logic for these weapons. Alien Archive needs a whole bunch of errata, and we haven't seen any yet.
Someone else pointed out that there ought to be a separate category of "low-power battery" that costs 1 credit and can only be put into a limited selection of items (e.g. items in the "Technological Items" category). I like this idea, but obviously not currently SFS-legal.
Both seem like good solutions.
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Considering the portable light, that has a 10-capcity battery, there is no way that equivalent of a 'D' battery is going to usable in any kind of powered weapon or armor.Except that per the rules that's exactly how it works. Specifically,
"Items with a specified usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices)."
They can be replaced, which inherently means they are extractable. The entry for batteries and technological items specifically references "Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices", which means that technological items use the same batteries as armor and weapons.
Just because you can't buy a battery with 10 charges does not mean you cannot buy an item that uses a 10 charge battery and extract the battery from it.
Could this be errata'd in the future? Of course, but its perfectly clear how it works right now, a 10 capacity battery from a technological item is the same as a 10 capacity battery for a weapon, just as a 20 capacity battery for a technological item is the same as a 20 capacity battery for a weapon.
We have had this discussion before so no need to have it up again. It will be addressed, of that I am confident.
At my table, I would not allow this to happen because I think it is flat out cheating.
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At my table, I would not allow this to happen because I think it is flat out cheating.
I'm glad you feel confident ignoring the rules as written at your table, I personally do not. Technological items with a usage listed use the same batteries as weapons and powered armor and the batteries between them are fungible. Until an errata changes that, they just do. This is not a question of GM interpretation, its flat out stated in the rulebook, you could no more ignore it than tell a PC they could not get +2 EAC from their Freebooter Armor I. Its not straight up cheating, its the rules as they are currently written.
And your alternative, as it stands is to limit a PC to 10 shots from his weapon if the scenario doesn't have downtime allowing for a recharge(or enough time to use a forced recharge armor upgrade), this is literally the only way to get more charges out of a 10 charge weapon currently without allowing technological item batteries. So, not only are you ignoring rules you're also nerfing a valid PC choice because of your ignoring of the rules.
Yes, I realize this can lead to potentially problematic results such as buying 20 and 80 charge batteries for way cheaper than you could otherwise, but the infinite wealth loophole is still very much closed with regard to this issue, so at the very most you're getting cheap batteries, not exactly a breaking the bank sort of proposition for most uses (who needs more than a few batteries anyway) and not allowing this to work, as I said above completely invalidates a build.
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"Too cheap to buy a battery" does not a build make. Further, SFS is not so deadly that we must exploit every broken rule for minor advantage to survive.
Too cheap to buy a battery isn't the issue, nor is it the build, there are level 1 weapons with 10 charge batteries (specifically the diasporan sniper rifle referred to in the OP, but I believe there are others), there is currently no way to buy an extra 10 charge battery besides through buying technological equipment and extracting the battery.
Your weapon choice is very much an integral part of your build (especially if you're a sniper as this is basically the only viable sniper weapon until level 5) and you're basically saying you can't reload your weapon if you're ignoring the core rules which say that technological equipment with charges use the same batteries as weapons and powered armor.
This isn't some minor advantage, this is literally only one of two ways (the other being a relatively expensive armor upgrade) to recharge these weapons during a normal adventuring day and is something someone with a diasporan sniper rifle should be reasonably expected to do.
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At my table, I would not allow this to happen because I think it is flat out cheating.I'm glad you feel confident ignoring the rules as written at your table, I personally do not. Technological items with a usage listed use the same batteries as weapons and powered armor and the batteries between them are fungible.
Disagree. Clearly two different things.
There will be clarity provided, of that I am sure because it is so badly broken.
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There will be clarity provided, of that I am sure because it is so badly broken.
That's the whole point, it may be broken, but it is not unclear, those are two different things.
Per the rules as they stand the batteries are the same they explicitly say so, "Items with a specified usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices)."
There is literally nothing ambiguous about this statement, it says technological items with a usage use the batteries from table 7-9, i.e. the weapons and powered armor battery chart.
You can't just say, "no they don't use that chart, tech item batteries are different than weapon batteries" the game literally tells you they are the same. You can't do this anymore than you could tell someone their ghost operative didn't get +4 to the trick attack (before the errata) based on a dev comment that that's how he originally wrote it, anymore than you could tell someone their armor has a different EAC/KAC bonus than it does, etc.
You, by not allowing batteries from technological items to work in weapons are ignoring the rules as they are clearly written and stated, please stop claiming you are not because you simply are.
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At my table, I would not allow this to happen because I think it is flat out cheating.
Okay, so what solution would you propose for someone with a 10 shot battery powered weapon? I would agree with this if there were another option but..
Weapons that use batteries list the highest-capacity battery they are capable of using as well as how many charges from the battery that each shot consumes.
If there was a 10 shot rifle battery I would agree with you, but that item doesn't seem to exist. you CAN"T buy the 60 credit 20 shot battery and plug it into your 10 shot rifle. So what does someone do for a battery besides raiding the maglight?
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What about "you plug in the usual 20 charge battery but only get 10 charges out of it"?
The rules are rather explicit that the rifle can't use that battery at all. The argument for raiding the maglight is better.
As a practical matter, I think the important thing is that if the DM is changing the laws of physics people need to be able to react to it. Even if *especially if* you have to do it retroactively and say LightDeath Laserblaster picked up those batteries BEFORE heading into the middle of Castrovels wilderness.
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At my table, I would not allow this to happen because I think it is flat out cheating.
Okay, so what solution would you propose for someone with a 10 shot battery powered weapon? I would agree with this if there were another option but..
Weapons that use batteries list the highest-capacity battery they are capable of using as well as how many charges from the battery that each shot consumes.
If there was a 10 shot rifle battery I would agree with you, but that item doesn't seem to exist. you CAN"T buy the 60 credit 20 shot battery and plug it into your 10 shot rifle. So what does someone do for a battery besides raiding the maglight?
I would allow a player to use a battery that was purchased from the battery table.
It makes a lot more sense than letting a player use a com battery or flash light battery.
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I would allow a player to use a battery that was purchased from the battery table.It makes a lot more sense than letting a player use a com battery or flash light battery.
Per the rules they can't do that though, as BNW has already explained. I'm also not sure why technological items and weapons using the same interchangeable batteries doesn't make sense on a fundamental level(I recognize the wealth issues implicit in this acceptance), the rules specifically say they do and it certainly makes more sense to allow someone to use the rules to do something than it does to let someone do something by ignoring explicit rules (namely that a 10 charge item can't use a 20 charge battery.)
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Per the rules they can't do that though, as BNW has already explained. I'm also not sure why technological items and weapons using the same interchangeable batteries doesn't make sense on a fundamental level(I recognize the wealth issues implicit in this acceptance), the rules specifically say they do and it certainly makes more sense to allow someone to use the rules to do something than it does to let someone do something by ignoring explicit rules (namely that a 10 charge item can't use a 20 charge battery.)
I would allow a player to use a battery that was purchased from the battery table.It makes a lot more sense than letting a player use a com battery or flash light battery.
The reason is twofold:
- Those items are sometimes cheaper than buying an appropriate weapons-grade battery.
- People are aware that their smartphones and power tools use different kinds of batteries.
Personally, I assume that the designers never considered this problem and that the context of organized play forces us to massively overthink something.
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- People are aware that their smartphones and power tools use different kinds of batteries.
I think this is a fundamental issue that people have when playing Science Fantasy that they don't have when playing Medieval fantasy they use the real world to explain things that may or may not work the same.
We're literally dealing with a era in which basically everything can be created through UPBs, if everything can be created through one common substance I'm not sure why its a stretch for technological items and weapons to use the same batteries (besides the fact that in Starfinder smartphones and power tools are both likely technological items that DO use the same batteries.)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Please read my post. I have already explained why this is not an option.
I would allow a player to use a battery that was purchased from the battery table.
The text BNW quoted above can be found on page 170 of the SF CRB :
Capacity: A weapon’s capacity measures the largest-capacity
battery it can hold (given in number of charges), the number
of rounds of ammunition its magazine can hold, the amount
of fuel it carries, or the number of individual cartridges,
grenades, or missiles it can hold.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Oh right. I had Numerian batteries in mind, which you plug in and immediately drain and recharge the weapon up to min(battery capacity, weapon capacity). Because then there's no problem with wasting a better battery on a smallish gun.
Well, until the issue is fixed I'd rule as "10-charge batteries for your diasporan riffle cost the same as regular 20-charge batteries". Doesn't give unreasonable advantage to the player but leaves the item functional.
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I keep picturing one of these things And yes, you can run a chainsaw and flashlight off the same battery.
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You asked what I would do. I told you what I would do.Please read my post. I have already explained why this is not an option.
I would allow a player to use a battery that was purchased from the battery table.
You would tell them to buy a battery from the battery table
They buy the 20 shot battery.
They then cannot USE the 20 shot battery.
So you're just telling them they're SOL or you're changing a pretty explicit rule in organized play because there's a questionable (but raw legal) rules interpretation.
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I see the whole battery issue as being completely FOBR (message me if anyone does not know what that means) so I am trying to assess what the developer's intended on batteries.
In my estimation, they intended tech items use internal, likely rechargeable, batteries that could not be removed.
And they intended that weapons and armor used special grade batteries that were interchangeable. So yes, a weapon has a standard battery of, say 10 / 1 user per pull, but a larger capacity battery could be purchased and slapped in there. So a player could put a 20 or even 60 capacity battery in and get the full benefit from it. Or even find a battery from the mook that was using it before they were dropped.
That is how I believe the developers intended batteries to function. Is it RAW? No, but I have been chastised enough recently to stop going by RAW and look more at RAI.
And there is just enough wiggle room that I can have this view point.
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So yes, a weapon has a standard battery of, say 10 / 1 user per pull, but a larger capacity battery could be purchased and slapped in there.
battery it can hold (given in number of charges)
Flat out, black and white, clear as crystal you cannot do this. This is not some inane grammar argument, Asmodeuous rules lawyering, or playing gotcha with unintended consequences. Your supposition is wrong. When you have clear and convincing evidence that your supposition is wrong you are supposed to change your mind.
This is not a matter of raw this is a matter of fairness. How on earth is any player coming into your table supposed to
figure out that that's the way it's supposed to work before they get into the middle of the jungle and need to reload?
I am all for telling unintended raw to go redact itself, but this isn't raw it's rules.
In my estimation, they intended tech items use internal, likely rechargeable, batteries that could not be removed.
That is a very weak and arbitrary supposition to go on. It is also directly contradicted by the rules.
Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services), or they can be replaced (see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices).
So it is telling you, flat out, that if you have something that takes charges it uses the same kind of batteries as the weapons, that they are replacable, which explicitly means that the guns take the same kind of batteries as the tech items.
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In my estimation, they intended tech items use internal, likely rechargeable, batteries that could not be removed.
But we know specifically they did not. We know this because the rules state as such, they say explicitly that those technological items without a usage listed use internal batteries that can last for practically forever, like you suggest they intended for all technological items, whereas technological items with a usage use batteries from the ammunition chart. Specifically:
If an item doesn’t specify a usage, it needs very little power and has an internal battery designed to function for decades or even centuries without recharging. Items with a specified usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices).
SO there it is in black and white, I'm not sure where you think the rules debate is here, there's no support for your proposition that technological items use nonremovable batteries full stop.
Also, I believe the expression you're looking for is FUBAR unless there's some acronym I'm not familiar with.