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So I know my group pretty well and it’s not very hard for me to anticipate their approach to the scene in which Barzillai publicly gives them gifts.
Bottom line: they aren’t going to reveal their identities or show up in disguises even if the rewards were worth 10,000 gp each.
So I’m envisioning a scene where Barzillai stands on the footsteps of the Opera House with goods and essentially gets “stood up.” I know the AP mentions Tayacet being willing to step in but for now, that also seems like a stretch. (They’re entertaining the idea of making her disappear with one of Sargaeta’s favors.)
So on to the question, how would you GM this scenario?
I’m thinking of having Barzillai turn this into an opportunity to further disguise his true intent perhaps with a speech like this:
“And here we stand, alone. ::solemn pause:: Let it be known that on this day, Thrune stands WITH the Silver Ravens as allies and commiserers, yet stripped of a way to reward citizens so in tune with the beating heart ::foreshadowing tap to the breastplate:: of our noble city.
:: Barzillai motions to guards that open chests revealing gifts::
I have no doubt these secret citizens have great works still ahead of them. Undoubtedly they may again be of service to our government. Perhaps on that day, these hidden individuals will have the courage to step into the light! Until then, we must suppose that Thrune’s thanks are reward enough. Please continue to work to ensure, as I do, this grand city’s safety and its proud legacy.”
I’m sure random citizens might just claim to be Silver Ravens for the rewards. But, maybe Barzillai would have another group on his payroll that steps in to accept the gifts, perhaps led by Tombus Regegius. (This scenario could easily pit the PCs against an elite group of pro Thrunies)
What are your thoughts?
Several options:
- Do that speech (it sounds cool) and have a handover that is not in public for the rewards - to emphasize that there actually was a reward and not an ambush
- Have commoners take the items. Have them clearly killed by general ruffians for the powerful items and not Thrune supporters. It would prove the group right if the commoners are rounded up and Excrutiated
- Your idea of having pro Thrune supporters pose as the Ravens. This would work really well leading into the climax of Book 3 as these people could remove masks at the end (rather than have the Azatas).
I like the idea of the false ravens coming forward. I would leave their real identities a mystery to the players for the time being. Perhaps the false ravens could eventualt make public statements that aren’t helpful to the actual revolution — pledge allegiance to Thrune, for example.
It will educate the players that they need to have control over their public presence — which creates a nice tension with their need for secrecy.
But, maybe Barzillai would have another group on his payroll that steps in to accept the gifts, perhaps led by Tombus Regegius.
I really like your whole post but particularly this idea! I don't think most groups would take the items and I think Barzillai is smart enough to know that. Him having people in the wings waiting to step forward and pretend to be the Ravens so that they can pledge allegiance to him and tarnish the Ravens' names.... GREAT way to introduce Tombus as an antagonist!
I'm a little confused - Barzillai knows they are Silver Ravens? And he wants to reward them? Who does he think they are? Why would he want to give the Silver Ravens any credit? Why would he let people who are not the pc's take the items? Why would he give the rewards to impostors? I suppose he might stage impostors to use them to discredit the Silver Ravens... Seems like a dicey proposition though - not too hard to discredit and at least at the beginning gives the Silver Ravens credibility.
And how exactly does Thrune know who they are? Have they made themselves widely known? As the Silver Ravens? That seems... dangerous. Why doesn't he simply have them killed? He's done that to every other group that might have opposed him (see the Night of Ashes) and the Silver Ravens are actively thwarting him.
It always seemed to me that Thrune would be more likely to take credit for stopping Varl and give the credit to the Dottari or Chelish Citizen's Group. It's not like House Thrune has any allegiance or interest in truth.
Latrecis, have you read the AP? If so, you're forgetting at least one of the plot points laid out in them...
Have read it. Several times. But happy to be reminded of something I've missed.
I think this should be strictly optional. The whole thing would end up as schmuk bait with the threat of being under WBL goading them along. I say not showing up is a perfectly valid choice and they shouldn't have their knuckles rapped over it,
Have read it. Several times. But happy to be reminded of something I've missed.
This is the canonical ending to book two. The gifts are a trap: he wants to be able to Locate Object and figure out who the SR are.
Have read it. Several times. But happy to be reminded of something I've missed.This is the canonical ending to book two. The gifts are a trap: he wants to be able to Locate Object and figure out who the SR are.
Yea... But. I've read it and am aware. (Confession: I think it's a silly encounter. So my bias is showing.)
Unlike elements in the thread above, the AP is explicit that Thrune does not call out the Silver Ravens as a group or title. He appears to be rewarding "intrepid" citizens (AP's word, not mine) who have acted as vigilantes in dealing with Wex and are not tied to any formal group or faction. The AP maintains (in completely irrational departure from his character otherwise) that Barzillai wants to avoid a confrontation with the Silver Ravens so as to not grant them legitimacy or spur public opinion against him. Setting aside its relative sanity, how are the pc's/players supposed to know that? In the pc's experience, the Victocora family, Thrashing Badger patrons, clerics of Saranrae, Sacred Order of Archivists and the Order of the Torrent, have received a very different form of Thrune's beneficence. Why should they expect anything different should they be so foolish as to attend a public ceremony in their honor? Those groups were only likely to oppose Thrune - the Silver Ravens are actively engaged in doing so.
And the entire encounter pre-supposes Barzillai knows who the pc's are. How did that happen? Have the pc's been careless? Are they posting to Facebook? Handing out business cards? Passing out flyers? "BBQ on Sunday. Come have your picture taken with the Silver Ravens! First 100 attendees get a portrait of Queen Abrogail II signed by the Silver Raven Spymaster! Young adults in good health should be sure to stop by the Silver Raven recruiting booth." Not only does Barzillai know who they are but he knows enough about them to give them specifically tailored magic items to the tune of about 4000gp each. I acknowledge that every other NPC seems to know who the Silver Ravens are whenever convenient (which is also narratively sloppy) but none of those NPC's have a vested interest in the pc's being eliminated.
Having given these non-cursed, non-denominational, fully functioning magic items to the pc's - ostensibly so he can scry on them or use locate object on the items, he proceeds to ignore them for the rest of the AP. No mention of them occurs in any later book. One might suppose they are how Tombus finds their hideout in the beginning of Book 4, but if so it isn't mentioned in the AP. As the pc's criss-cross Ravounel in the build up to the Ruby Masquerade, with numerous points where there would be an advantage in Barzillai knowing where the Ravens are - nothing.
Okay. I'm ranting now. I'll stop.
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that plot element myself. I'm thinking about whether to use it or cut it. As far as these points go, one mitigating element in the text could be that 50+ notoriety is one of 4 pre-conditions to the Thrune event, although you only need to pass three to activate them, although how Thrune would know about two of the other ones is equally problematic (ally with Torrent and Captain Sargaeta).
As far as Notoriety, which I’ve interpreted as “The city’s acknowledgement of the Silver Ravens existence” and not “Random individual knows the PCs identity,” the problem stems from the lack of information regarding players doing their best to hide their identity. My group has gone from wearing masks during Hocum’s to each wearing Sleaves of Many Garmets. They’re diligent AF when it comes to their true identities. So, a very public meeting with ol’ Barzi is very much not going to happen.
Latrecis, you need to start thinking like a narcissistic, magalomaniacle, cousin of a Queen with performance issues. He would absolutely see being stood up as failure. He is as egotistical as he is smart, and this failure would not occur. Their mere absence confirms what he suspects: “Their identities are a close guarded secret.” So what can Barzillai do if he can’t draw his enemy out?
Barzillai would use their “closely guarded secret” against them. He can now manipulate their public persona with people under his employ. Now how do the PCs deal with a group of loyalists who’ve assumed their name and whose very actions undermine their objective?
I think this should be strictly optional. The whole thing would end up as schmuk bait with the threat of being under WBL goading them along. I say not showing up is a perfectly valid choice and they shouldn't have their knuckles rapped over it,
I can fix WBL behind the scenes. Forcing a win/win in the BBEG’s column is what they’re good at. It’s why they’re BBEGs and will only serve to make the players hate Barzillai more. The only win for the group would be to disguise themselves and sell the items right away then burn their disguises.
I think this should be strictly optional. The whole thing would end up as schmuk bait with the threat of being under WBL goading them along. I say not showing up is a perfectly valid choice and they shouldn't have their knuckles rapped over it,I can fix WBL behind the scenes. Forcing a win/win in the BBEG’s column is what they’re good at. It’s why they’re BBEGs and will only serve to make the players hate Barzillai more. The only win for the group would be to disguise themselves and sell the items right away then burn their disguises.
Then you turn that against them by punishing whomever they sold the things to and then making the market even more restrictive as a result
It is easy to think of relatively reasonable responses to any action the group might have and given the context have it not seem over the top
A group of level 7 players should not expect to have god like evasiveness and no repercussions to their actions against a powerfully supported head of state
If they do they are being quite naive about the situation they are in and mistaken in the idea that simply being a bit clever is enough to remove challenge the AP sets in their path. The enemies are clever as well...
As far as Notoriety, which I’ve interpreted as “The city’s acknowledgement of the Silver Ravens existence” and not “Random individual knows the PCs identity,” the problem stems from the lack of information regarding players doing their best to hide their identity. My group has gone from wearing masks during Hocum’s to each wearing Sleaves of Many Garmets. They’re diligent AF when it comes to their true identities. So, a very public meeting with ol’ Barzi is very much not going to happen.
Latrecis, you need to start thinking like a narcissistic, magalomaniacle, cousin of a Queen with performance issues. He would absolutely see being stood up as failure. He is as egotistical as he is smart, and this failure would not occur. Their mere absence confirms what he suspects: “Their identities are a close guarded secret.” So what can Barzillai do if he can’t draw his enemy out?
Barzillai would use their “closely guarded secret” against them. He can now manipulate their public persona with people under his employ. Now how do the PCs deal with a group of loyalists who’ve assumed their name and whose very actions undermine their objective?
Well first, you're assuming I'm not already a narcissistic megalomaniac... ;)
And no one has explained how Barzillai knows who they are - by name and knows them in sufficient detail to construct magic items specifically for them (I know - he's tracking them in Hero Lab.) Did the pc's defeat Wex and then take the evidence/corpse to the Dottari and explain everything including who they are? Did they leave a note? "Here's your serial killer. We should all be good now. Signed Your Friendly Neighborhood Silver Ravens - John, Paul, George and Ringo!"
And if he does know those details why doesn't he simply have them killed? Or do it himself? Sounds like a great task for a high level inquisitor of Asmodeus... Might also observe that vigilantism is against the law. And this isn't the loose, good outweighs the law sort of thing we might be used to, this is the law as defined by Asmodeus. Breaking it isn't okay in any circumstances.
It sounds like a great idea for Barzillai to give official credit to someone else - like key Dottari or Chelish Citizen Group members and utterly cut off any public credit for the Silver Ravens. Even going so far as setting a trap for the Ravens at a public ceremony should they show up to claim credit and deny Barzillai's version of events.
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The books probably don't tell you how Barzy knows anything about the Ravens because it totally depends on the group. Maybe they let Kossrani and his crew at the Sallix Salt Works live, maybe when they rescued an NPC from an Unsanctioned Excruciation there was enough panic in the group that they didn't get their disguises on, Nox or a reactor could've escaped from Hocum's with a description, rescuing someone from a public doghousing may have gotten Tayacet's attention and perhaps she followed them, Sabo at the Holding House may realize she was duped and can describe them, a cultist or two could've escaped from the Lucky Bones.... There are so many opportunities that a group could slip up, sure there's one you could use.
Heck, it could be as simple as a supporter turned traitor after seeing a friend being excrucitated and the Ravens didn't do enough to stop it (if they were able to stop it at all).
The books probably don't tell you how Barzy knows anything about the Ravens because it totally depends on the group. Maybe they let Kossrani and his crew at the Sallix Salt Works live, maybe when they rescued an NPC from an Unsanctioned Excruciation there was enough panic in the group that they didn't get their disguises on, Nox or a reactor could've escaped from Hocum's with a description, rescuing someone from a public doghousing may have gotten Tayacet's attention and perhaps she followed them, Sabo at the Holding House may realize she was duped and can describe them, a cultist or two could've escaped from the Lucky Bones.... There are so many opportunities that a group could slip up, sure there's one you could use.
Heck, it could be as simple as a supporter turned traitor after seeing a friend being excrucitated and the Ravens didn't do enough to stop it (if they were able to stop it at all).
Yea, but... Those are valid sources of some information but not necessarily enough. Barzillai needs to know quite a bit:
- that there is an active resistance movement in Kintargo- they've taken the name Silver Ravens (which means the group has access to information not possessed by most anyone else in Kintargo - though Barzillai himself knows about the historical Ravens)
- there are (4) leaders/significant persons in the group (the pc's) who he knows by name
- he knows their specific character features/background/career choices such that he knows specific magic items that would particularly compelling to accept as gifts from an avowed enemy.
- and he knows that there was a serial killer in the city and these (4) leaders dealt with the nut job and have explicitly or implicitly made the Dottari and his government look incompetent or oblivious (or both) to recruit more citizens to their cause.
I am uncomfortable with/dislike GM fiat or hand-waving just to produce a specific encounter or situation. If an NPC knows critical information, I should know how he came by it and it should be at least possible for the pc's to keep it away from him. If they think to try. And as I complained above I'm reluctant about what Barzillai does with the information - publicly honor and celebrate his enemies and give them valuable magic items just so he and they can look each other in the eye and have an "I know that you know that I know" moment. But then seems to forget all about it.
1 - by the end of book 2 it should not be unreasonable to guess there is active resistance due to a chain of events such stopping him at the museum/monastery , rescues of people being excrutated , rescue of the poison pen.
He is not an idiot. He would not view them as randomly disconnected acts . If your players think he should then they are being obtuse and are underestimating what they are up against. This isn’t some raving ogre warlord or the like
2 - isn’t the monastery connected to the old ravens or am i wrong there? He can also suspect they use the old name as a rallying point. Also won’t people on the street mumbling about the Ravens by this point. Unless the group are tyrannical saviours who threaten severe reprisals for anyone who mentions the name
3 - Where is he said to know them by name? Do you mean to invite them in the first place? I shouldn’t think their names are necessary
4 - As written the items are generic and compelling to every adventurer. And you could make them even more so by being a +2 stat booster that selects what it deems as most significant to you as soon as you put it on. More specific will be harder. But again despite disguises some of the tactics will be known. Unless the group is so good that the archery focused Pc completes every mission without one person left alive to see them fire an arrow (for example)
5 -Any totalitarian ruler would use this kind of a thing as an excuse to praise those who help but then increase the police presence. A part of him could be delighted that his dottari failed
It is very difficult to know exactly what will be required until your group has gone through every challenge. If just seems unlikely that they can perfectly cover their steps. Unless they are all vigilantes and even then it is only the social identities that will be perfectly hidden
And as has been mentioned - if a group somehow have been complete ghosts he will set something up to take the credit.
Again think of how the USSR invented stories of the achievements of miners/labourers as propoaganda to get people working. It would not be beyond him to create some kind of figureheads for people to idolise. And then blame them and kill them despite their innocence
The books probably don't tell you how Barzy knows anything about the Ravens because it totally depends on the group. Maybe they let Kossrani and his crew at the Sallix Salt Works live, maybe when they rescued an NPC from an Unsanctioned Excruciation there was enough panic in the group that they didn't get their disguises on, Nox or a reactor could've escaped from Hocum's with a description, rescuing someone from a public doghousing may have gotten Tayacet's attention and perhaps she followed them, Sabo at the Holding House may realize she was duped and can describe them, a cultist or two could've escaped from the Lucky Bones.... There are so many opportunities that a group could slip up, sure there's one you could use.
Heck, it could be as simple as a supporter turned traitor after seeing a friend being excrucitated and the Ravens didn't do enough to stop it (if they were able to stop it at all).Yea, but... Those are valid sources of some information but not necessarily enough. Barzillai needs to know quite a bit:
- that there is an active resistance movement in Kintargo
- they've taken the name Silver Ravens (which means the group has access to information not possessed by most anyone else in Kintargo - though Barzillai himself knows about the historical Ravens)
- there are (4) leaders/significant persons in the group (the pc's) who he knows by name
- he knows their specific character features/background/career choices such that he knows specific magic items that would particularly compelling to accept as gifts from an avowed enemy.
- and he knows that there was a serial killer in the city and these (4) leaders dealt with the nut job and have explicitly or implicitly made the Dottari and his government look incompetent or oblivious (or both) to recruit more citizens to their cause.I am uncomfortable with/dislike GM fiat or hand-waving just to produce a specific encounter or situation. If an NPC knows critical information, I should know how he came by it and...
I think I see the disconnect. You don’t like the items being tailored to the PCs because Barzillai shouldn’t know much about the PCs without good reason. I wholly agree with this.
But, I think you might be angry and frustrated with this encounter for the wrong reasons. I’ve envisioned town criers all over the city announcing something like this:
“By order, on the morrow, special rewards will be granted to those acting in favor of the city of Kintargo, its best interests, and thereby the best interests of Paracount Barzillai Thrune cousin to Her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail Thrune Second of Her Name and with that, The Will of Asmodeous Himself! Those calling themselves the Silver Ravens will be publicly granted a bounty befitting their historic names at Aria Park in return for services rendered.”
This is Barzillai drawing the group out. He doesn’t know enough about them and is attempting to even the playing field. So far, he knows they’re Charismatic and lurk in the shadows. Giving them any combination of +2 Stat Boosting items is comprehensible. (He might even be one item short of the party size or have a few left in the bin after handing them out.)
Remember, he’s not rewarding them. He’s putting faces to the rebellion...to his enemies.
Yea, but... Those are valid sources of some information but not necessarily enough. Barzillai needs to know quite a bit:
- that there is an active resistance movement in Kintargo
- they've taken the name Silver Ravens (which means the group has access to information not possessed by most anyone else in Kintargo - though Barzillai himself knows about the historical Ravens)
- there are (4) leaders/significant persons in the group (the pc's) who he knows by name
- he knows their specific character features/background/career choices such that he knows specific magic items that would particularly compelling to accept as gifts from an avowed enemy.
- and he knows that there was a serial killer in the city and these (4) leaders dealt with the nut job and have explicitly or implicitly made the Dottari and his government look incompetent or oblivious (or both) to recruit more citizens to their cause.
Ah, right, okay... yeah, I see the problem you have with it and I agree (at least partially).
Knowing there's a resistance: He should be aware by the end of book 2 for a fair number of reasons.Knowing the call themselves the "Silver Ravens": That seems relatively likely (people talk about them, they've had some supporters leave, i's not unreasonable but I can understand why he might not know their group name)
Knowing the numbers: Yeah, I agree with that.... he likely doesn't know how many there are and probably doesn't know their names. My group is often using different NPCs for different missions. Perhaps, as BornofHate said, Barzillai has extra items thinking that there were 5-7 leaders.
Knowing character specifics: Yeah, he probably shouldn't know that either. I plan on using relatively generic items that will appeal to most people.
Knowing about the serial killer: I'm taking parts from the GM thread for that book which will provide a legitimate reason for Barzillai to know that they put a stop to the killings.
There is also a chance that a traitor event will come up or you could have some of the supporters that left (or team that was disbanded or ally that left) have a bit too open of a mouth.
Yea, but... Those are valid sources of some information but not necessarily enough. Barzillai needs to know quite a bit:
- that there is an active resistance movement in Kintargo
- they've taken the name Silver Ravens (which means the group has access to information not possessed by most anyone else in Kintargo - though Barzillai himself knows about the historical Ravens)
- there are (4) leaders/significant persons in the group (the pc's) who he knows by name
- he knows their specific character features/background/career choices such that he knows specific magic items that would particularly compelling to accept as gifts from an avowed enemy.
- and he knows that there was a serial killer in the city and these (4) leaders dealt with the nut job and have explicitly or implicitly made the Dottari and his government look incompetent or oblivious (or both) to recruit more citizens to their cause.
Update: How this worked out in my campaign...
Active resistance movement is fairly obvious: they've done street propaganda and graffiti tagging with the Silver Ravens name, issued counter-proclamations, terrorist actions at the Fantasmagorium and the Salt Works, took out the Queensmen, Poison Pen's their new propagandist, etc.
Taking the name Silver Ravens: they got the historical info in Book one. There's also the Silver Raven figurines whipping around town for message drops.
4 Leaders: Well, the town knows of a "pink-haired woman" and "The Unremarkable Man" as SR leaders, as they blew disguise checks on missions. They don't know about the tiefling arcanist (who's been arrested, but way too early to mark him as a leader) or the human monk.
The serial killer was manipulated by Zella Zidlii (who gave him the dagger and Harrow cards that inspired his murders) and she used her fortune telling to guide Duxotas Vannases Trex to the murder sites and enable dottari frame jobs of the Ravens.
I'm not sure how this event is going to work out, but I'll see if they take the bait. If not, I may use that team of vigilantes, the Black Eyes in the random encounter bloc. I'm not sure if I'll leave them as halflings, though.
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Why running this obvious trap is completely worth running even though you know your players won't show up to collect the items Barzillai is offering them:
I knew there was no way that the players would be dumb enough to go up to collect their reward nor send someone in their stead as showing that the Ravens are at all aligned with Thrune is a terrible idea. I was fully prepared for them to simply not show up and had a group of bad guys planted in the audience to come up and claim to be the leaders of the Ravens. My plan was to use the False Ravens as a counter-intelligence group against the PCs in the next two books.
Thankfully I hadn't planned that out too much because, instead, my players came up with a different plan.
"What if we use 'Lesser Summon Planar Ally' to get it to appear and give a prepared speech about what we've done and how we're not allied with House Thrune?"
So, remember Yilliv, the Scrivenite, from Hocum's Fantasmagorium? Yeah, the group ended up talking to it for a while before having to kill it so that they could move forward. During that conversation they learned that Yilliv was being forced to do things it didn't want to do so they figured it would be the prefect planar ally to summon. The bard, the religious proselytizer rogue, and the Poison Pen of Kintargo got together and started working on the speech.
The morning of the ceremony the Shaman prepared 'Protection from Evil' in case Barzillai and crew went and attacked the Scrivenite (or something).
At the appointed time Barzillai and his crew came out of the Opera House and Yilliv (who had flown up out of sight) descended from the heavens to begin the speech that the group worked on for nearly a week to get just right.
Barzillai tried casting Dismissal, a player rolled 15+ and passed, Barzillai tried casting Dismissal, a player rolled 15+ and passed, repeat this 2 more times and Barzillai ended up standing there seething in rage.
In an attempt to save face Thrune gave the speech that BornofHate wrote up in the OP and went back inside.
Since we're already halfway through book 3 when this happened (the group very quickly went from clearing out the Lucky Bones to heading over to Acisazi to help the aquatic elves so I couldn't justify Thrune having had the time to have made the custom magic items before they left) I'm having this speech influence some of the noble families mentioned at the beginning of book 3 or will have it so that the nobles will come to them asking for help (eg: The Aulorian's will come to one of the PCs, who they know as a friend of Marquel, and ask her to find their son as they'll now start to worry that Thrune has tracked him down and killed him just like the floating books said that Thrune killed the Victocora family).
The obvious display of calling out Thrune will result in a huge surge of support from the city and will prompt Thrune to change his ways and have a celebration called the Ruby Masquerade.
tl;dr: Run the obvious trap at the end of book 2. You never know what your players will come up with and it might be awesome.
Why running this obvious trap is completely worth running even though you know your players won't show up to collect the items Barzillai is offering them:
I knew there was no way that the players would be dumb enough to go up to collect their reward nor send someone in their stead as showing that the Ravens are at all aligned with Thrune is a terrible idea. I was fully prepared for them to simply not show up and had a group of bad guys planted in the audience to come up and claim to be the leaders of the Ravens. My plan was to use the False Ravens as a counter-intelligence group against the PCs in the next two books.
Thankfully I hadn't planned that out too much because, instead, my players came up with a different plan."What if we use 'Lesser Summon Planar Ally' to get it to appear and give a prepared speech about what we've done and how we're not allied with House Thrune?"
So, remember Yilliv, the Scrivenite, from Hocum's Fantasmagorium? Yeah, the group ended up talking to it for a while before having to kill it so that they could move forward. During that conversation they learned that Yilliv was being forced to do things it didn't want to do so they figured it would be the prefect planar ally to summon. The bard, the religious proselytizer rogue, and the Poison Pen of Kintargo got together and started working on the speech.
The morning of the ceremony the Shaman prepared 'Protection from Evil' in case Barzillai and crew went and attacked the Scrivenite (or something).
At the appointed time Barzillai and his crew came out of the Opera House and Yilliv (who had flown up out of sight) descended from the heavens to begin the speech that the group worked on for nearly a week to get just right.
Barzillai tried casting Dismissal, a player rolled 15+ and passed, Barzillai tried casting Dismissal, a player rolled 15+ and passed, repeat this 2 more times and Barzillai ended up standing there seething in rage.
In an attempt to save face Thrune gave the speech that BornofHate wrote up in the OP and went...
Savant, that’s great!
My players, as expected, wanted nothing to do with rewards from their enemy. They didn’t even know how expensive they might be. Instead, they casted silence on Thrune’s area and gave a rousing anti-Thrune speech in a mundane disguise of Mithril armor complete with a helm fashioned as a Silver Raven. He actually let them talk..... knowing full well he has a scy focus. The player was levitating above the crowd, gave the speech, went invisible, and was ‘skyhooked’ out of there by an invisible raven animal companion.
Afterwards, Thrune gave his counter speech which didn’t quite compare to the PCs. The scenario awarded them 1D6 supporters for every five by which it superseded Barzillai’s Check.
For their presence of mind and creativity, I awarded them a bonus teamwork feat. Something I’ll probavly do a few more times throughout the campaign.