Sigh, this is the issue, you like the clunky, fiddly and needless complexity. It adds another thing to the game you must track, another point of freeze and argument, another slowdown of the already slow combat. It is another thing that needs to be tracked all the time, that should not need to be tracked. And its not even static.
Its another pool, another resource to track in game that is already fiddly as hell. And you seemingly do not see this as an issue.
It quite literally does not add another thing to track. What part of “No more charges in wands, staves, once per day/hour/encounter item” tracking is lost in this discussion? It replaces all of those things with one pool. You want less fiddly and less complex? That is it! Right there. It’s not that I do not see an issue here, it’s that there is not the one you claim there is. And on the static issue, because I recall you complaining about it being “ever-changing” in a previous thread, it only increases when you level up. That’s the only time it changes when you are not using it. So you only have to add the two numbers that go into it every other session or so. The complexity you claim to be bothered by just simply is not there.
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Its not as complex as the old system is not the same as its not complex. But you guys can not or will not understand this. I'll reserve judgement. But to me, right now its just fiddly.
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"Hmm... I keep seeing posts that tracking one pool of points is too fiddly. It's odd, considering that it's meant to replace a system where everything had its own personal system of usage with times per day, total charges, and time based limits. Of course, I have plenty of reservations about this particular mechanic. We're definitely pushing the envelope here, but fiddly is not the complaint I expected to see so frequently."Omg, that was exactly what i kept seeing that made me bail on the bigger resonance thread. One user kept just saying it was too complex and wouldn’t say why, while other people kept calling it too fiddly. It is two numbers you add together and then use for everything! I love how much it streamlines magic item use, and can’t wait to see more info on how it will be used.
I have 10 Resonance.
2 for Sword
4 for gear.
2 for wands.
2 for potions.
The Wands and potions are varying based on what happens. I will however lock in the 2 and the 4 each day. I have 1 pool split across 4 different usages and will have to mark them down as such.
The old way I have around 5-6 extra powers I have to track based on their own usage. But if I use one, I do not have to worry about how it might effect any of the other numbers I put down. So on the character sheet or back of it, I'll have to put numbers next to the gear I am Actively using. And damn whatever gear we find that day, it'll have to wait, I don't want to take the chance. And I have no idea how online sheets will set this up. Mind you this requires them to release the sheets so this point could be moot.
The system is less book keeping. Flip side is everything links together making a sense of "What do I spend it on" or spend it on nothing depending on the character. At worst I do nothing with it as I just spend it all on armor/gear/items and never touch anything else.
Which causes problems when my Alchemist buddy tries to heal my 0 ass and fails.
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Its not as complex as the old system is not the same as its not complex. But you guys can not or will not understand this. I'll reserve judgement. But to me, right now its just fiddly.
The problem with what you are complaining about with this is that when you just say something is complex, and give no context to what that is complex in comparison to or what would be a less complex alternative, you aren’t actually adding anything to the discussion. Pathfinder is a complex game. The classes are complex. The skills are complex. The item system is complex. That is the nature of the game. The whole reason many players choose Pathfinder over 5th is that it is complex, because with that complexity comes flexibility and customization. That complexity is a feature, not a bug. So the only thing I do not get here is how Resonance being complex is a problem in the greater context of the game. A magic item system is going to be complex no matter what you do, so saying this solution is complex is like saying rolling dice to attack is gamey. A mechanic that has three facets to it (Is the sum of two numbers, is used to power magic items, and once expended you must roll increasing checks to use) is so much simpler than like 90% of the game. So again, without actual context to what the negative is of this being complex(which is really debateable frankly) you are going to get this same response from me and other commenters.
I really like the idea of managing my magic item inventory by resonance rather than individual item x per days... I can see why it's being called fiddly, but I appreciate that sort of decision making, it's like choosing what spell my Sorcerer will learn at a level. The choice is based on what I think I'm going to need in the future and as I level, and outgrow that need, I reallocate the slot.
The obvious parallel to my example is that I can supplement my casting ability with 50 varieties of wands and staves and in this new system I might be able to do that but definitely won't pull them out Willy nilly because of the pool. Ok, that is definitely true, but maybe we can wait and see what they give us to fall back on.
One of the reasons my Sorcerer was decked out in wands was he ran out of spells once at lower level and couldn't effectively add to the game. I think they are giving us better cantrips than the current acid splash to help with that. They are implementing new ways for healing to work to manage the inability to rely on potions and wands (IIRC). So a fiddly bit, but one I am ready to read more about and that so far I am interested in.
As far as complexity, I think you are saying other games have solved the deluge of magic item Christmas tree problem in simpler ways. Like the hard limit in 5e (If I'm wrong feel free to correct me), if that is what you mean then you are right. There are simpler ways to do it but part of what gets me about 5e (which I do play and like) and 13th Age etc. is it feels oversimplified. Part of why I always come back to Pathfinder is the complexity. Don't get me wrong I'm not looking for Champion's PF, but I want crunch. Crunch makes me think tactically, it challenges me. That may not be your experience and that's fine. Until I have a lot more detail I can't say I love it or hate it but colour me intrigued.
I hope everyone intends to stick around long enough to give the playtest a read at least... and maybe a try. Everyone here sounds like they like PF a lot, if it comes from a place of love then I don't begrudge you your say.
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Doesn’t matter how cool items are if they never see use because of resonance costs.I don't think you understand how large Level + CHA mod. is.
Let's do some math:
Assuming level 10 Human Fighter with 18 CON and 10 CHA, you would have 148 HP and 10 Resonance.
A level 10 Cleric's healing spell a la PF1 heals 4d8+10 HP.
Assuming this character uses half his resonance for magic items (weapons don't count towards this), he can heal 20d8 + 50 damage per day off of potions. (average 140 healing) THEN, he gets to make Resonance Checks. What fighter have you played where you burn through 288 HP in ONE day at level 10, without some serious stuff going down?
And the only magic items he gets to use all day outside of the weapon are heals. Because, resonance. How cool.
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The whole point we keep trying to make is this is LESS complex and LESS fiddly than PF1E, not more or as complex in a different way. If you have 9 different limited use items like wands, rods, activated rings, etc, you don't have to keep track of every item's charges and uses per day/hour/etc anymore. They all come out of one pool and you can manage it with a single line list.
Right now, you note down charges for each charged item, each X/day uses, each Y hours/day stuff, and are always thinking about how much you still can use any of those items.
With resonance, you have one thing to track off. And it's easy to track as HPs.
No, I'm not seeing this HUGE increase in complexity.Sigh, why most it sty the same level or more? What is the point of being complex to be complex? new edition should make the game better, not just more fiddly or the same mount of fiddly in brand new complicated way.
That is my issue, you don't need the fiddly.
But you haven’t removed complexity at all. You have just relocated it.
And the only magic items he gets to use all day outside of the weapon are heals. Because, resonance. How cool.Doesn’t matter how cool items are if they never see use because of resonance costs.I don't think you understand how large Level + CHA mod. is.
Let's do some math:
Assuming level 10 Human Fighter with 18 CON and 10 CHA, you would have 148 HP and 10 Resonance.
A level 10 Cleric's healing spell a la PF1 heals 4d8+10 HP.
Assuming this character uses half his resonance for magic items (weapons don't count towards this), he can heal 20d8 + 50 damage per day off of potions. (average 140 healing) THEN, he gets to make Resonance Checks. What fighter have you played where you burn through 288 HP in ONE day at level 10, without some serious stuff going down?
They've already talked about multiple ways to heal... so you shouldn't have to rely on wands and potions for main healing. Heck according to Seifter (IIRC) a barbarian managed to keep the whole party healed when he decided to focus some attention on that.
My parties, but in a rare case, rarely rely on wands for healing, much less potions. We usually go out with no healers and it's not been a deal for us.
It's a revamp of the system. New tactics will have to evolve. Until we know how prevalent magic is in the game we really can't speak reliably to how we would apportion our resonance.
I realize that current tactics call for entering every combat as fully healed as possible, that works but it removes a bit of anxiety from the game. I prefer the idea of debating whether you have enough in you to take out the big bad after fighting through his minions. I like the idea of deciding whether a magic item ability might be a wiser option than saving for a heal I might not need and I don't mind my character talking about the time he died fighting Igthorpe the Bold, but how his companions carried on with the can of ass whip he opened up. Hell, my character might even brag about it.
These are differences in play style. Yours suits you and mine suits me. Hopefully we can talk about it in a clear enough way that the Devs can parse easily and use our critiques.
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Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.Exactly. Under the system as we know it, people will save their resonance for healing potions and nothing else!
Thus I would strongly urge the devs to exclude potions and scrolls from costing resonance.
I'm making this point once more not because I'm picking on you but because I want to hammer it home to the community at large.
0 Resonance does not mean you can't use items.
It means you start making a check to see if you can use the item. If (I) remember correctly only a fumble result means you can't use non-invested magic items for the rest of the day. (Paizo Person correct me please.)
I bolded the part of this quote I'm mostly, talking about.
Resonance is a game mechanic designed to increase the value of charisma. Or so it seems (to me at least). I'm OK with that.
I'm profoundly not OK with critical misses, and/or fumbles. I've always found such rules to be opposite of fun. (Already having a bad day because I can't get a decent roll; now I get a horrible effect that reduces success chances even further. Meanwhile, all the others players are gaining joy from my misfortune. Nope, I don't love them critical miss rules, no, not at all.
The chance for a fumble in this aspect is very important. The alternatives (barring not using Resonance altogether) are either...
A) Don't allow use beyond pool.(Resonance gone? Then no potion/scroll/wand for you!)or
B) Remove the Fumble chance. This encourage the spamming a wand outside of combat 11 times with no repercussions. "I'll make the DC on a 10! now 11! now 12!"
This reminds me of the rules for UMD and wands in PF1e.
Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.
This isn't like other fumble rules where you happened to roll a 1 on the first swing of your sword for the day and... "oops! You sliced up your wizard friend on accident!"
This only comes into play when you are trying to squeeze more magic uses in during the day then you are supposed to. so, You have no points left but you want to get another heal from a wand. Fumbled? No healz for 24 hours! but you had no points to spend today for heals anyway...
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STR is flat bonus to attack / damage
DEX is flat bonus to reflex / CA
CON is flat bonus to fortitude / HP
INTis flat bonus to number of Skilladds to a "crappy pool" of Skills?
WIS is flat bonus to WillIf anything, CHA should be a flat bonuses to something.
Not a crapy pool.
And if this forum truly is making you feel this way...
...it just feel so bad and infuriating that I am hesitating to...
...then I think it is time to take a break from the forums.
If not, then perhaps you should find a different way to describe your feelings. Be safe and be mindful, friend.
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To add to the Fumble mechanic aspect of Resonance:
It's important to know that if the check is indeed a flat roll (1d20) against DC 10 + 1 per previous attempt, then your first chance has a 0% chance at a fumble, with a 5% chance going up with each attempt after that. While it does get harder to succeed, you should have plenty of opportunities to attempt the check. Also a fumble only cuts you off from your ability to use magic items. That doesn't mean that other PCs are cut off from trying themselves.
Also, there are more than likely going ways to gain a bonus to your attempts through traits, feats, class options, heritage traits, items, and/or spells. Each +1 bonus will give you one more fumble free round to try the check.
This makes me realize that the check can't possibly be tied to a skill like Use Magic Device because such a skill at high enough proficiency and ranks would make Resonance a useless mechanic. This also makes me think we are going to see attempts to keep bonuses to the roll from getting higher than +4.
I would also put money down on a method of recharging Resonance eventually making its way into the game.
But "fumbles" in this case isn't as severe as the word implies. The wand isn't going to explode. The potion isn't going to poison you. They are just going to fail to benefit you for the rest of the day.
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I put this in the other thread but question: besides fixing the dreaded Wand issue and moving the numbers around, how's this better than Auto Progression at killing the big 6?
Besides look at the math some people have done for the play test threads anyway or just go look at some theory bases threads for build ideas. The Pathfinder(and RPG) community is very good at it. So ding dong the 6 are dead and we can finally make choices based on what we want instead of what we need. For about a year anyway. Because someone will get the number crunching rolling on the best items per cost and that will more than likely spread.
I however reserve the right to eat my hat in the event I'm wrong.
But you haven’t removed complexity at all. You have just relocated it.
The whole point we keep trying to make is this is LESS complex and LESS fiddly than PF1E, not more or as complex in a different way. If you have 9 different limited use items like wands, rods, activated rings, etc, you don't have to keep track of every item's charges and uses per day/hour/etc anymore. They all come out of one pool and you can manage it with a single line list.
How is going from a list of separate pools and usage trackers to one pool not removing complexity? Seriously. All of the number crunching and separate charges were not just moved, they were done away with and replaced with a simple equation.
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Well, I suppose given the fact that magic items won’t get used much that will be less complex...
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How is going from a list of separate pools and usage trackers to one pool not removing complexity? Seriously. All of the number crunching and separate charges were not just moved, they were done away with and replaced with a simple equation.But you haven’t removed complexity at all. You have just relocated it.
The whole point we keep trying to make is this is LESS complex and LESS fiddly than PF1E, not more or as complex in a different way. If you have 9 different limited use items like wands, rods, activated rings, etc, you don't have to keep track of every item's charges and uses per day/hour/etc anymore. They all come out of one pool and you can manage it with a single line list.
Class level + Cha Mod = Resoance. Simple yes. Nice of you to leave out the other part.
Resoance - X. X being number of magic items one wishes to use.
We aren't keeping track of 5+ items that have their own numbers. We are now keeping track of 1 number that quite possibly has too many items to go into. Myself I see this as just flipping the book keeping.
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How is going from a list of separate pools and usage trackers to one pool not removing complexity? Seriously. All of the number crunching and separate charges were not just moved, they were done away with and replaced with a simple equation.But you haven’t removed complexity at all. You have just relocated it.
The whole point we keep trying to make is this is LESS complex and LESS fiddly than PF1E, not more or as complex in a different way. If you have 9 different limited use items like wands, rods, activated rings, etc, you don't have to keep track of every item's charges and uses per day/hour/etc anymore. They all come out of one pool and you can manage it with a single line list.Class level + Cha Mod = Resoance. Simple yes. Nice of you to leave out the other part.
Resoance - X. X being number of magic items one wishes to use.
We aren't keeping track of 5+ items that have their own numbers. We are now keeping track of 1 number that quite possibly has too many times to go into. Myself I see this as just flipping the book keeping.
Exactly.
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How is going from a list of separate pools and usage trackers to one pool not removing complexity? Seriously. All of the number crunching and separate charges were not just moved, they were done away with and replaced with a simple equation.
It may reduce the total amount of numbers and boxes on your character sheet or resource tracking sheet, but it's no less complex in actual play.
Typically, when I have a magic item with uses per day or charges, I put hash marks or boxes next to that item. Hash marks always add up, boxes are always cleared each day. It's not difficult or time consuming, but I will grant you that they exist.
In actual play, however, those tracking systems only come up when I want to use that specific item. Outside of that, they're frozen. I don't need to worry about them. They're there for me.
In PF2e I still need to interact with a tracking mechanic every time a use an activated magic item, same as before, it's just a different single pool for all of them. Only now, I need to make sure I have every other item I own in mind before I use that pool because they all depend on it, and I might lock myself out of an option I'll need later.
You can argue Resonance makes it easier to keep track of things, but you can't also argue that Resonance is good because it increases tactical thinking. In this case, I believe the tactical thinking required of Resonance is far more of a cognitive load than simple PF1e resource tracking.
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It may reduce the total amount of numbers and boxes on your character sheet or resource tracking sheet, but it's no less complex in actual play.
I think you are mistaking complexity for depth, and this system is a great example of removing complexity but adding depth.
The problem the magic item system had before can be referred to as Tracking Complexity. In fact, Pathfinder has had several areas where tracking complexity was a problem. With tracking complexity players are forced to track many different aspects of their character, and in the case of magical items they had to track up to a few dozen separate items. Tracking complexity is often considered poor design, but it isn't always avoidable.
The other type of complexity in game design relates to how easily a system can be understood or comprehended. If players can't understand how to play the game, or can't understand how each part of the game works with the whole, then you have a bad type of complexity in the game. In this case, resonance is easy to understand and I doubt we are talking about that form of complexity.
One thing resonance is attempting to do is reduce the levels of tracking complexity in the magic item system while avoiding creating complexity with the system as a whole.
I understand your point that while we are no longer tracking a dozen x/day items we have to put more consideration into which items we will use. That extra consideration into your options isn't the same as tracking complexity. That consideration could create confusion on how the game works as a whole, but only if the items themselves are poorly designed and overly complex themselves.
If the items are clearly designed and easy to understand, than what is being added with resonance isn't complexity but depth. Depth is providing meaningful, understandable, and balanced options to game play. Now that items have to compete for the same resource the players have to consider the merits of each one. That is a good thing. As long as the players can understand the system (and they should, its easy to explain) and the items (jury is out on that until we see items) they are provided incentive to be smart with their choices.
It also gives an incentive to game designers to make those items cool, engaging, easy to use, and worth the investment.
So while I wouldn't say your are totally wrong in your assessment, I think the disconnect here is actually with vocabulary usage.
This system has more depth, not complexity.
All that said, more depth isn't always a good thing, but until I can play with magic items directly I won't know if we have good or bad depth with resonance.
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I’d say including th at overall limiting factor on how many magic items you can use of any sort in a day can be at best a slight negative, with much downside. Unless the pool is so large as to be meaningless.
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...
I'm making this point once more not because I'm picking on you but because I want to hammer it home to the community at large.
0 Resonance does not mean you can't use items.
It means you start making a check to see if you can use the item. If remember correctly only a fumble result means you can't use non-invested magic items for the rest of the day. (Paizo Person correct me please.)
0 resonance means you start gambling with a coin toss whether you waste a consumable for no effect and lose an action, AND gain a chance where you straight up can't use any more magic for the rest of the day. When are you going to take that risk? Only when you are forced to. When would be the worst time to fail that roll? In a situation where you are forced to take that risk.
I know its just an opinion, but there it is.
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It may reduce the total amount of numbers and boxes on your character sheet or resource tracking sheet, but it's no less complex in actual play.
I think you are mistaking complexity for depth, and this system is a great example of removing complexity but adding depth.
Good points. Some people definitely would prefer a reduction in "tracking complexity", but not mind an increase in "tactical complexity". (I wouldn't use the words complexity versus depth because one has clear negative connotations and the other positive, and I don't think worrying about drinking a potion now because you might need to be able to drink your other potion later is necessarily good depth)
I happen to be one of the people who enjoys "tracking complexity", but I may be in the minority. I like having lots of items at my disposal, and I like the feeling I get when my character is well stocked and prepared. All those empty boxes and full wands put me at ease. I also feel that having access to these kinds of options adds depth to the game.
I also like "tactical complexity", but I feel that there's already plenty of that in the game. Building your character with your friend's abilities in mind, choosing spells, buying gear, deciding on combat roles with your group. There's quite a bit of depth in that regard. I'd prefer if we didn't also have to perform a cost benefit analysis every single time you spend Resonance to use items you already spent time planning out while shopping in town. That's not the kind of depth I'm super excited for.
Again, and as always, I can only speak to my personal preferences.
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Also speaking for mine.
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Why not just let the player wear whatever he wants, skip the whole "atunement" thing and just let him activate a special effect that he wants, when he wants from his resonance pool? Wouldn't that be straight up simpler? (Ignoring consumables for the moment). It is just silly to me to sit there thinking should I keep my armour running? Or maybe I might need my boots today, but then I would have to move my stuff from the magic bag."
My +1 sword is always a +1 sword, but if I want it to fire a laser I spend a point. you have your special ability limit with the weirdness of my armour doesn't work today because I turned on my shield.
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Why not just let the player wear whatever he wants, skip the whole "atunement" thing and just let him activate a special effect that he wants, when he wants from his resonance pool? Wouldn't that be straight up simpler? (Ignoring consumables for the moment). It is just silly to me to sit there thinking should I keep my armour running? Or maybe I might need my boots today, but then I would have to move my stuff from the magic bag."
My +1 sword is always a +1 sword, but if I want it to fire a laser I spend a point. you have your special ability limit with the weirdness of my armour doesn't work today because I turned on my shield.
Honestly, people have been thinking a lot beyond what the devs have actually said and instead are thinking about a lot of made up stuff.
I suggest you to ignore these posts for now and look for the information we already have, it addresses these ideas you speak of.Looking at all of this is being really bad to my health...
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I put this in the other thread but question: besides fixing the dreaded Wand issue and moving the numbers around, how's this better than Auto Progression at killing the big 6?
Besides look at the math some people have done for the play test threads anyway or just go look at some theory bases threads for build ideas. The Pathfinder(and RPG) community is very good at it. So ding dong the 6 are dead and we can finally make choices based on what we want instead of what we need. For about a year anyway. Because someone will get the number crunching rolling on the best items per cost and that will more than likely spread.
I however reserve the right to eat my hat in the event I'm wrong.
Hey! No fair wearing a nacho hat!
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I'm confused though, by one thing.
Everyone keeps talking about how it's "simpler." Simpler than what?
Old: There's a potion. Someone drinks it. the potion is gone. Done.
New: There's a potion. Someone wants to drink it but has to check their resonance, potentially make a roll, then track their resonance. And also, track that the potion is gone. This is simpler than only tracking a potion? In what conceivable way?
For the vast majority of items, there is no tracking. Resonance to use your sword? Really? That can't be right.
I really wish there'd be a useful summary of what the rules actually are. This trying to glean rules from a podcast is kinda dumb. It's not like the rules aren't finalized yet. They've been under development for 2 years and the Playtest Book has to be finalized by now or there'd be no way to get it printed by August.
I'd really really like some of these unhelpful teaser blogs to actually be helpful previews of the rules that are already done. I don't mean set in stone, because obviously they'll change between the playtest and the final version, but it's no help to anyone having GINORMOUS threads speculating about how all this stuff works when it's already known, just not revealed to us.
Well, I suppose given the fact that magic items won’t get used much that will be less complex...
You and this pessimism. You are just so sure that this will dissuade any magic item use at all, yet you have no idea what magic items will be available or what class abilities will be balanced around them or really anything else. You know what i am sure of? Magic items will be used. People will equip magic items good for their builds, and use their remaining resonance when they need to. Fighters and other martial classes will use their resonance mostly on equipment making them hit harder, as these classes usually don’t use items during battle anyway, while casters will have less use for as many magic equipment since small bonus items will be gone and they will be more prone to using items anyway and will be more prone to using wands and scrolls anyway. It will be fine.
Class level + Cha Mod = Resoance. Simple yes. Nice of you to leave out the other part.
I am not too keen on you implying that’s i am intentionally leaving out details of Resonance to deceptively make it seem simpler. We all know that Resonance doesn’t just end with you calculating it, obviously it’s not just a pool of points that exists to be a pool of points. I shouldn’t have to go over what it is used for every time if I don’t want to be accused of misrepresenting it. Excuse me for assuming that people don’t need to have the whole thing spelled out for them.
Resoance - X. X being number of magic items one wishes to use.
So this is what was so complex that i left out intentionally? So the equation is x+y=z, where x is your level, y is your CHA, and Z becomes the number of magic items you can use. If that math is not simple enough for someone they are really going to struggle with the entire rest of the game.
We aren't keeping track of 5+ items that have their own numbers. We are now keeping track of 1 number that quite possibly has too many times to go into. Myself I see this as just flipping the book keeping.
I’m not sure what you mean by “Too many times to go into”, do you mean too many things depending on it? But on your book keeping remark, that’s TTRPGs. Period. You are going to have book keeping in regards to magic items. And everything else for that matter. The only way to get rid of any and all book keeping for your magic items would be to have no restriction on them. Any number of rings and amulets, any number of uses from wands, etc. so unless we go that route, we are going to have some level of complexity. And this did flip the book keeping, while also sinplifying it. There is no question of that. You do not have the same number of charges and item slots to worry about, it’s a smaller number, and it is only one. THAT IS LESS COMPLEX. Not the same complexity moved to a different area. It is really boggling my mind why this is such a difficult concept.
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Well, I suppose given the fact that magic items won’t get used much that will be less complex...You and this pessimism. You are just so sure that this will dissuade any magic item use at all, yet you have no idea what magic items will be available or what class abilities will be balanced around them or really anything else. You know what i am sure of? Magic items will be used. People will equip magic items good for their builds, and use their remaining resonance when they need to. Fighters and other martial classes will use their resonance mostly on equipment making them hit harder, as these classes usually don’t use items during battle anyway, while casters will have less use for as many magic equipment since small bonus items will be gone and they will be more prone to using items anyway and will be more prone to using wands and scrolls anyway. It will be fine.
Class level + Cha Mod = Resoance. Simple yes. Nice of you to leave out the other part.
I am not too keen on you implying that’s i am intentionally leaving out details of Resonance to deceptively make it seem simpler. We all know that Resonance doesn’t just end with you calculating it, obviously it’s not just a pool of points that exists to be a pool of points. I shouldn’t have to go over what it is used for every time if I don’t want to be accused of misrepresenting it. Excuse me for assuming that people don’t need to have the whole thing spelled out for them.
Resoance - X. X being number of magic items one wishes to use.So this is what was so complex that i left out intentionally? So the equation is x+y=z, where x is your level, y is your CHA, and Z becomes the number of magic items you can use. If that math is not simple enough for someone they are really going to struggle with the entire rest of the game.
We aren't keeping track of 5+ items that have their own numbers. We are now keeping track of 1 number that quite possibly...
Looks like my pessimism on the complete neutering of skills has been verified.
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Looks like my pessimism on the complete neutering of skills has been verified.
That is a different topic from this discussion. I disagree, but leave such discussion for a thread specifically for proficiency.
Please, if you can't stay on topic and provide something meaningful to the discussion find another discussion. This isn't specifically aimed at Arssanguinus, but at the community as a whole. Little is going to be accomplished in the playtest if we can't do either.
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I am not too keen on you implying that’s i am intentionally leaving out details of Resonance to deceptively make it seem simpler. We all know that Resonance doesn’t just end with you calculating it, obviously it’s not just a pool of points that exists to be a pool of points. I shouldn’t have to go over what it is used for every time if I don’t want to be accused of misrepresenting it. Excuse me for assuming that people don’t need to have the whole thing spelled out for them.
However you keep saying it as it is the END ALL BE ALL equation and we don't have to worry about it again.
So this is what was so complex that i left out intentionally? So the equation is x+y=z, where x is your level, y is your CHA, and Z becomes the number of magic items you can use. If that math is not simple enough for someone they are really going to struggle with the entire rest of the game.
And if they can get this, why is an extra number or two suddenly so difficult to the point they have to gut the system?
I’m not sure what you mean by “Too many times to go into”, do you mean too many things depending on it? But on your book keeping remark, that’s TTRPGs. Period. You are going to have book keeping in regards to magic items. And everything else for that matter. The only way to get rid of any and all book keeping for your magic items would be to have no restriction on them. Any number of rings and amulets, any number of uses from wands, etc. so unless we go that route, we are going to have some level of complexity. And this did flip the book keeping, while also sinplifying it. There is no question of that. You do not have the same number of charges and item slots to worry about, it’s a smaller number, and it is only one. THAT IS LESS COMPLEX. Not the same complexity moved to a different area. It is really boggling my mind why this is such a difficult concept.
You can say it's only one number as much as you like. The fact you have to divide this number up across so many items makes as if we didn't change bloody much.
You'll need some for weapon. You'll need some for armor. You'll need some for wands, gear, potions, saving for who knows bloody what.
You have one bloody number, but that's the god damn starting point. The fact you have to split it up into basically smaller catagories doesn't feel that much different from what we have bloody now.
AND I still wait on why this is a good replacement on GM ruling and Auto Progression. Not from you personally I haven't had anyone address it.
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An extra fireball from my fireball sword might prevent a lot more damage than I'd heal from the potion in my bag. The choice of whether to use it or not is tactically interesting and an option I wouldn't have in PF1.
Yes but that's just one example.
I can easily tag on: But using a wandfor a buff might save me, or did I remember to turn on my magic shoes for the movement to run away, or do I turn on my ring of catching arrows to not be a pincushion, or maybe do I use my potion of invisibility to get away? What do I do on 1 Point remaining.
And we'll have everything between these two points and BEYOND each of them to consider. Just because we have more options doesn't always make them good ones(Heck how many items don't get used NOW. They can playtest as much as they want, on release we are probably going to kick some of the new/remade stuff down the tier list)
That's probably the biggest take away for me. We just do not know. Why yes I've ranted and raved a bit but all of this is just guesswork and my own personal experiences talking. If people think it's good, fine. For me, I'll need to see it in action first hand to actually fully come down on hating it.
For now I dislike how it seems to gimp characters early on as I see no reason not to end up as a Christmas tree late game, more so if you're a CHA caster.
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You and this pessimism.
You and this optimism... It's not like you can prove your POV is better or more likely than ours so what is the point of bringing it up? Myself, I'd rather be pleasantly surprised things come out better than disappointed things are worse than I hoped. :P
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You and this pessimism.You and this optimism... It's not like you can prove your POV is better or more likely than ours so what is the point of bringing it up? Myself, I'd rather be pleasantly surprised things come out better than disappointed things are worse than I hoped. :P
Reminder to both of you to please keep things civil, on topic, and helpful to the conversation. I know that is tame by comparison to what it could be, but both comments come off as a little heated and neither helps us understand resonance, how it works, and why have the opinions we have. We're all friends here talking about a game.
You and this pessimism.You and this optimism... It's not like you can prove your POV is better or more likely than ours so what is the point of bringing it up? Myself, I'd rather be pleasantly surprised things come out better than disappointed things are worse than I hoped. :P
You know there's a graph/matrix about getting excited or not over a game and the result of game being good or not.
I can't help but be reminded of it now.
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Reminder to both of you to please keep things civil, on topic, and helpful to the conversation.
I was trying to be. Harping on someone's excitement or lack of it for the new systems isn't very helpful. It's much the same as extolling the many benefits of the system while simultaneously telling other that 'we don't know what else the system has so it's too early to complain'. We're all debating on the limited info we have but we can at least attempt to play on an even playing field and try not to use different goalpost for pro and con.
You know there's a graph/matrix about getting excited or not over a game and the result of game being good or not.
LOL Maybe, but I'm sure that there is a graph for almost everything if you look hard enough. Some people REALLY mike their graphs.
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Looks like my pessimism on the complete neutering of skills has been verified.
Something else I couldn't disagree with you more on, but like it was said that is very off topic. I have yet to see you on any topic say anything positive, it just seems like your default position is that this new edition is going in the wrong direction and you assume the worst case scenario with each bit of info you get. I get what Greystone said about people preferring to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed, but you are already disappointed. It just comes across as needless negativity, and I do hope you give the full system a shot. If you don’t like it then at least 1stE is still an awesome game with lots of material.
However you keep saying it as it is the END ALL BE ALL equation and we don't have to worry about it again.
I don’t really understand what you mean by this. Do you mean that’s i am saying it never changes? Like the equation doesn’t? As far as we know now that is fact. Yes your level and charisma modifier change, but that is what the equation is. It is still your level plus your charisma modifier. Not complex. The sum will just go up by one each level, and maybe more every five levels when you get your attribute bumps. It is still very easy to just look at your character sheet and see what your resonance score will be at the start of each day no matter what level you are.
And if they can get this, why is an extra number or two suddenly so difficult to the point they have to gut the system?
First off, the issue wasn’t having one or two items with charges, but an entire pack full of items with charges and day/hour/encounter or whatever uses. Second, I am not arguing over whether or not it was worth it or needed to make this change, but against people calling it complex. That is the complaint that i take issue with, because it just is not accurate. Or at least not to the degree that it is worth bringing up. As far as everything works in Pathfinder, Resonance is very simple and straightforward. It may be complex for some other games, but for what Pathfinder is meant to do it is well within the norms of what is acceptably complex.
You can say it's only one number as much as you like. The fact you have to divide this number up across so many items makes as if we didn't change bloody much.
You'll need some for weapon. You'll need some for armor. You'll need some for wands, gear, potions, saving for who knows bloody what.
You have one bloody number, but that's the g** d!%n starting point. The fact you have to split it up into basically smaller catagories doesn't feel that much different from what we have bloody now.
AND I still wait on why this is a good replacement on GM ruling and Auto Progression. Not from you personally I haven't had anyone address it.
So your issue is that you need to make choices on how to use this resource? Like was said before, that’s not complexity. You don’t have to figure out whether or not you are able to spend Resonance on your wand because you already used that wand, you look at your remaining points. You don’t have to plot out which magic items you equip based on where they go on your body (within reason), you just subtract each item you want from your points for the day. You don’t have to invest it in magic weapons, just to activate special attacks from your weapon. You don’t have to split it up into categories, it is all coming from the same pool and is the same function no matter what it is being used on.
If you have a problem with needing to make a choice on how to use it throughout the day, then how do you get past making a choice on which race to play? Class? Feats? Skill points to spend? Which weapon to equip? You will have an entire pool of weapons to choose from later in the game, is it a problem that you have to make a choice to use a long sword when maybe you will fight skeletons and a mace would have been better? If you are a Wizard, is it a problem you need to spend your pool of spell slots on different spells, and need to make choices based on what you are expecting to encounter?
Are those choices things worth complaining about in this game? No, because those choices are a fundamental part of the experience of playing a Role Playing Game. And in that context, Resonance is no more complex or pressing on your decision-making than any other aspect of the game. So again, calling it complex is calling Pathfinder complex. Yes, that is true. And that is not inherently bad.
But as for why this was a worthwhile replacement instead of other options like the GM telling players to stop poking each other with wands or the auto-progression, I dunno. It seemed to be intended to stymie CLW spamming while also making Charisma more impactful on combat. I think it did both well, I get if other people don’t think so. That is reasonable as there are no true solutions to any issue in a game like this, and although I do like this better than GM intervention or Auto-progression, I am open to better suggestions and will be willing to admit the flaws once I have experienced any or had them pointed out.
No. I’ve said I like most of the combat and action economy. I dislike or am very wary of what I’ve seen of resonance and skills.
Well I obviously haven’t dug through your comment history, just saw your responses on those two subjects. Again, very strongly disagree with your assessment of both, but we all have a lot to learn about this system. Glad you are not entirely negative about 2nd, wish you aeren’t So dismissive with what you don’t like, but you probably wish I wasn’t so giddy about those things as well so we even out.
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You don’t have to split it up into categories, it is all coming from the same pool and is the same function no matter what it is being used on.
It's coming from the same pool. Going into different pools of items you want to use.
Do you want your magic sword on? Point into weapon. You want your magic armor to work, point into armor. Your gear, Points. And you better leave some open for wands and potion use as it would sure as heck stink to waste a 50% chance to have your buff/effect NOT work.
You're claiming the effect is 1 pool for one use. I'm saying 1 pool, Multiple uses spread out. For the sake of turning magic items on. Which won't bloody matter in the end when you have probably 10 OR MORE in the case of Casters. Real quick, this helps Martials how going forward when they have more things to use but less points?
If you have a problem with needing to make a choice on how to use it throughout the day, then how do you get past making a choice on which race to play? Class? Feats? Skill points to spend? Which weapon to equip? You will have an entire pool of weapons to choose from later in the game, is it a problem that you have to make a choice to use a long sword when maybe you will fight skeletons and a mace would have been better? If you are a Wizard, is it a problem you need to spend your pool of spell slots on different spells, and need to make choices based on what you are expecting to encounter?
Picking a feat or a class however does not possibly negate how I play based on a 50% roll. However I am used to making subpar characters that are more than just numbers on a sheet.
I do not need an energy bar forcing me to consider potions or magic sword. Or Wand or Ring. Or Ring and ring and ring and ring and ring.
Are those choices things worth complaining about in this game? No, because those choices are a fundamental part of the experience of playing a Role Playing Game. And in that context, Resonance is no more complex or pressing on your decision-making than any other aspect of the game. So again, calling it complex is calling Pathfinder complex. Yes, that is true. And that is not inherently bad.
I dunno, go look at class discussion and you tell me if all of that is worth complaining.
Is this complex? No, I don't believe I've actually CALLED it such. It's an extra layer tacked on that you have to bloody consider. And this is coming from someone that doesn't TANK CHA like everyone is expected to do so.
This will not make it to my table. GM having some sense and Auto progession has worked fine for me. This system looks to trim magic items.
And it doesn't even bloody well do THAT right.
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Well I obviously haven’t dug through your comment history, just saw your responses on those two subjects. Again, very strongly disagree with your assessment of both, but we all have a lot to learn about this system. Glad you are not entirely negative about 2nd, wish you aeren’t So dismissive with what you don’t like, but you probably wish I wasn’t so giddy about those things as well so we even out.
I don’t like them because they flatly seem to accomplish things which I think are bad for play experience.
It's coming from the same pool. Going into different pools of items you want to use.
I never said it was only for one use. Well, it really is. Magic items. But it works the same for each of those items. You don’t need to pool it up for different uses, the different items will all be drawing from the same pool. You can choose to do so, but that is the user being overly fiddly, not the system itself.
Do you want your magic sword on? Point into weapon.
That is actually incorrect. They already confirmed that magic weapons will have their bonuses without being invested in. You only have to spend Resonance on usable effects like shooting a cone of flame or something like that. A +2 Longsword will be a +2 Longsword always. And those flaming cone effects and their like were usually once per day, so this will give you more uses usually. If you want it badly enough.
You want your magic armor to work, point into armor. Your gear, Point.
This I am following you on. And see no issue. This works for me.
And you better leave some open for wands and potion use as it would sure as heck stink to waste a 50% chance to have your buff/effect NOT work.
Or I don’t? Why are you assuming that every single character will be using wands every single day? Not every encounter goes the same, and not every player uses wands. I very rarely have in my 20 years playing DnD variants. Just not really a fan of them honestly. The game can be played without assuming that you need to constantly spam wands, and it looks like this edition is built around you not being able to, so let’s assume that you are going to have options to do what you want that won’t be locked inside of wands. Like, class features maybe?
You're claiming the effect is 1 pool for one use. I'm saying 1 pool, Multiple uses spread out. For the sake of turning magic items on.
We have literally not said anything different on this. It is one use spread over multiple items. Just like Spell slots are one use spread over multiple spells and your equipment slots are one use spread out over multiple items.
Real quick, this helps Martials how going forward when they have more things to use but less points?
.
The point difference is going to be like what, 2-3 points as long as the martial doesn’t put their Charisma below 10? And that is something they SHOULD face a consequence for. If your CON is below 10 you get a penalty to hit points. If your STR is below 10 you can’t carry as much. If your WIS is below 10 you are easier to mind control and so on. Before the only penalty to having CHA below 10 was people looked at you funny when you tried to seduce them. Now, you have to think about if you really can get away with having one or two less magic items or potions than your companions. And for all we know Martials have more cool abilities so they don’t need to rely on magic items to do cool stuff like before. In fact I would bet money on it.
Picking a feat or a class however does not possibly negate how I play based on a 50% roll. However I am used to making subpar characters that are more than just numbers on a sheet.
Actually, it does. Well maybe not a 50% exactly, but choosing classes or feats is all about choosing what you will be able to do reliably and what you won’t. Just because you could use wands with impunity before and now hat won’t be the case is not inherently a bad thing. Restrictions are what make these kinds of choices interesting.
I do not need an energy bar forcing me to consider potions or magic sword. Or Wand or Ring. Or Ring and ring and ring and ring and ring.
And I don’t need a dragon forcing me to consider fight or flight. But it’s called a challenge and it’s part of what makes the game what it is. Being forced to make choices because of your limitiations is not a bad thing. Resource management is part of the depth and strategy of Pathfinder.
I dunno, go look at class discussion and you tell me if all of that is worth complaining.
I am not sure what I am supposed to be seeing, a direct answer would have been much more helpful. People arguing over what is most optimal does not tell me if complaining about choosing between class options is valid or not.
Is this complex? No, I don't believe I've actually CALLED it such.
Funny that you were responding to my arguing with people about this not being complex by spelling out how you felt it was complex then.
It's an extra layer tacked on that you have to bloody consider. And this is coming from someone that doesn't TANK CHA like everyone is expected to do so.
And that’s a bad thing how? It’s another layer that removed like two other entire layers so we are at a net negative 1 layer. Seems good to me.
This will not make it to my table. GM having some sense and Auto progession has worked fine for me. This system looks to trim magic items.
And it doesn't even bloody well do THAT right.
Do you just mean Resonance or 2ndE entirely? Because it definitely is looking like removing Resonance is going to put a lot of work on yourself as the GM rebalancing and rewriting all of the magic items and costs of them and so on.
I don’t like them because they flatly seem to accomplish things which I think are bad for play experience.
That was apparent, I got ya. I don’t see how they are, at all. Especially the skills, even after reading your responses on the Proficiency post I don’t see where the negativity is coming from. To me your reaction to Resonance seems to be knee-jerk because your arguments seem to be based on worst case scenarios, and assuming worst case will be the norm and thus dismissing it is where you lose me. I get that you see valid reasons for your reaction, I’m just telling you why I perceived your comments in the way I did. The skills thing I just don’t Even know where you are coming from saying they are over simplified. Skills right now are just a flat bonus that you invest in. And most are boring and don’t do anything but fail less as you increase them. In 2nd they will be a flat bonus you don’t have to worry about investing in, but you get to choose to increase your proficiency by five stages, which unlocks bonuses you get to choose from to make them much more dynamic. How that is simpler and anything but upside is a real mystery to me.
It will be Level + Charisma Modifier
As far as I can tell, it's level+Charisma. Not charisma modifier. Charisma, the stat.
So if you have Cha 13 and lvl 3, it's 16 resonance, not 4.
It will be Level + Charisma ModifierAs far as I can tell, it's level+Charisma. Not charisma modifier. Charisma, the stat.
So if you have Cha 13 and lvl 3, it's 16 resonance, not 4.
I know the 4 is low, but it's getting ridiculously high with this! That level 1 char is not even gonna know what to do with all that magic.
Well, I don't think the point of the system is to make the level 1 character worry about if he can use all of those magic items.
It's more to remove redundant book keeping (like, 5 different counts for your CLW wand, your 3 times a day cloak, your 100 hp shield brooch, and your 5 uses health ointment) and just use 1 single resource for all, while also providing for a reason to ty to upgrade CLW wands instead of stockpiling the cheapest one and then overusing it.