Yet Another Resonance Thread


Prerelease Discussion

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Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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Okay, so I keep reading a great amount on resonance and I'm seeing enough to have me believe that people are not considering all of the information given to us. Fair enough if you haven't been able to read all the blogs and forum posts, as well as listen to all the podcasts and keep up with social media. So here is everything En World has compiled on magic items , with a little editorial work on my end.

We keep focusing narrowly on resonance but lets look at magic items as a whole first.

  • Magics items are getting multiple major changes and they will work very differently in 2.0.

  • Magic items will be rebalanced so you don't have to have specific items to gain necessary stat bonuses. Characters find and make cool magical items.

    Quote:
    "You no longer need to collect a specific set of magic items to be a balanced character, relying on specific magical statistic bonuses. Instead, you get all of the bonuses you need from your regular armor and weapons, allowing the rest of your items to be truly wondrous."
    Quote:
    "Of all of the systems that Game Masters interact with, magic items are one of the most important, so we spent extra time ensuring that they are interesting and fun. First and foremost, we have taken significant steps to allow characters to carry the items they want, instead of the items that they feel they must have to succeed. Good armor and a powerful weapon are still critical to the game, but you no longer have to carry a host of other smaller trinkets to boost up your saving throws or ability scores. Instead, you find and make the magic items that grant you cool new things to do during play, giving you the edge against all of the monsters intent on making you into their next meal.”
  • Re. item quality: poor, common, expert (+1), master (+2), legend (+3). (Glass Cannon Podcast). Applies to attack rolls or skill checks. (From what little I have gathered, this isn't magic items but mundane items, moving flat bonuses from magical enhancements to quality of the item. This is, however, speculation at this point.)

  • Some "signature gear" can level up with your character.

  • Brand new magic items. Not just converting same old items. Many operate with new elements of the rules system. For those who have seen six editions of marvellous pigments, there's lots to love. (Mona)
  • +1 swords are so much more exciting. And particularly +4 swords.(Mona)
  • Getting rid of items needed just to Keep Up With The Joneses. Not the same approach to cloaks of deflection and rings of protection. Required quest to get all those little +1s is almost gone. (Mona)
  • Those items are minimized a lot. 3 core items. (Bonner)
  • No body slot system. Aimed at a small number of cool items than a whole bunch of clutter. (Bonner)
  • Specific challenges might make you focus on 3-4 of your 8 items over others. A lot more interesting decision making. (Mona)
  • Do I want to use this wand or save my resources for something else? (Bonner)
  • "There *are* wands of heal, there are just diminishing returns on buying the cheapest one possible and spamming it." - Logan Bonner.
  • Activated magic items use points from a daily pool to activate. This includes wands.
  • "The party was given a crystal vial labeled "Health" that healed 1d8 (no additional modifiers). That is similar to the healing serums of Starfinder" (source)

    Quote:
    "There is a concept called "Resonance Score", it is Level + CHA. Whenever you activate magic items or drink potions, you use up your resonance. Once it at 0, you have to start making checks to use items/drink potions. If you fail the check causing the use of the magic item to fail, and if you fumble it, you are cut of from magic items for the rest of the day. Potions no longer do anything. When you start the day, you do whats called "Investing", where you put on your magic items, and invest your resonance so they are good all day. Even if you are cut off, you keep your bonuses (I believe). If you find a magic items that have active effects, each use of that appears to use a resonance as well (example given was a sword that can shoot a ray of fire, each ray would cost one point of resonance). .The check after you resonance is done appears to be a "flat check", which means its a d20 with no modifiers. Starts at 10, goes up by one each time your "overspend". Again if you fumble you are cut off, which means you would need to roll a 1 on your second one to be cut off for the day."
    Logan Bonner on Resonance wrote:
    "The way Resonance works came partially from the occultist because he defines the in-world concept of putting a piece of yourself into items to power them. As we do in many places, we’re expanding a PF1 concept by exploring its broader implications in our world. If we keep this system, the occultist would have new and more versatile ways to use his Resonance, just like a certain other class in the book!"
    Mark Seifter on Resonance caps wrote:
    "Except for a particular time when my playtesters explicitly tried to see if they could get away with saving money on CLW wand spam despite being high level adventurers who could afford a better wand, and a few extreme stress test situations where I told them "This is the only fight today. Nova your heart out," my playtest group never really hit hard against the resonance caps, even the ones with lower Charisma."
    Jason Bulmahn weighed in on the heated discussion wrote:
    "Hey there all! Let's all just take a breath here before things get too heated. Resonance is a system that we knew was going to come with some controversy. It's really hard to give you a full sense of what the system allows us to do with the design space without going on a deep dive on magic items. This is a topic we are going to hit soon, so hang in there. I will say this before I go to run more demos at GAMA. Players have rarely run out of resonance in our games, and there is a lot more healing to go around than you might think."
    Bonner wrote:
    Class features don't use Resonance -- "We avoided making class features that use Resonance Points unless they're directly tied to items. Resonance is a resource for items thematically and specifically. If you have abilities from a bloodline, you'll have to pay for those some other way..."
    Bulmahn wrote:
    "Hmm... I keep seeing posts that tracking one pool of points is too fiddly. It's odd, considering that it's meant to replace a system where everything had its own personal system of usage with times per day, total charges, and time based limits. Of course, I have plenty of reservations about this particular mechanic. We're definitely pushing the envelope here, but fiddly is not the complaint I expected to see so frequently."

    SO, from all that I'm going speculate some here and present what I think is going on here.

    Magic items and mundane gear are getting reworked. No longer are we going to see a system that encourages and focuses on flat +1 to +5 bonuses. We will still have bonuses to abilities, traits, skills, attack, damage, and AC but those bonuses are going to come from quality of item first and magic second.

    Magic items are moving away from x/day uses in permanent magic items and instead will have abilities that can be used as many times as the player wishes to attempt.

    Magic item slots are gone, and magic items are not something we are going to collect like we did before. Gone are the days that my fighter is going to try to fill his helmet, neck, shoulder, armor, torso, leg, belt, rings, arm, and feet slots with a bunch of items he won't have to actively use or will forget he has. Instead, the system will let us feel satisfied with a few items that each do something cool and beneficial.

    Limited use items like wands, potions, and scrolls are going to see changes to how they work. There was mention of diminishing returns for a cheap wand at higher levels. This could mean that there will be changes to how cure spells work, how healing works, how wands work, how items are priced, or a combination of all of the above.

    Resonance will be an important stat for all characters. It will be Level + Charisma Modifier. You can invest your resonance into an item, with 1 point per item, to gain its ongoing effects. Items you don't invest into can be used by spending resonance. When you run out of resonance you make a check that gets harder and harder the more you make it that day. At some point you fail (maybe fumble?) and can't use items requiring resonance for the rest of the day. This means Use Magic Device becomes more important and will no longer be trained only. I believe the check DC starts at 10 and has a +1 per use in that day. From what it sounds like it ends up being rare that players run out of their ability to use items.

    Finding a magic item will be exciting, and there will be a new way to identify them. We won't be looting a body and ever say, "He just had a +2 sword." Now we'll say, "His sword is magical and does this cool thing." This will give players less of a reason to just sell everything.

    Some magic items will have the ability to level up with the character. This being in the CRB will make this a standard expectation of the game.

    As I said in a couple other places, Resonance allows for a broader and deeper design in magical items. Now I can have a magic item that does a cool thing that gets cooler the more points I am willing to spend on it. I can have items that work differently based on if you invested into them or not. I have have items with their own resonance pools (or cursed items that sap yours.)

    Does this mean these are "Good" changes? I don't know because I haven't played with them. But I think this system is about more than just fixing wand spamming and making Charisma more important. It has broader implications and solves a wider array of issues. I'm cautiously optimistic and look forward to putting it through its paces as a tester and a game designer.


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    Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.

    Grand Lodge

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    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.

    Exactly. Under the system as we know it, people will save their resonance for healing potions and nothing else!

    Thus I would strongly urge the devs to exclude potions and scrolls from costing resonance.

    Liberty's Edge

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    You make some good points in this post, and I think the amount of information we've been given is just enough to be dangerous with regards to speculation.

    I'm curious to see what the full rules are, but given what we do know, I think applying Resonance to consumable items seems like it might not be a great idea, and that having a limited pool will mean most players will just save the points and not want to spend them. I'm happy to be proven wrong though!

    Sovereign Court

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.

    That's leagues better than never using your 1/day fireball sword because you might need it later. Even if you never end up using all your points, you get an ever expanding pool of points you do use.


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    I'm actually loving the Resonance thing.
    Contrary to what people have said, it will require LESS bookkeeping than noting down all charges and 1/day stuff of each item separately.
    It also will do something interesting: Force the designers to think of better, awesome items to create rather than regurgitate a bunch of extremely specific items which, while flavorful, are pretty much useless already.
    It will give the GM more latitude on giving on items. No longer "you should have X magic items by level Y". No longer giving out too much magic is a so big problem, since each power will need resonance. Also, no longer there's much problem in giving too few magic items, since you theoretically can spend everything with one item.
    It makes wands, rods and staffs something durable and constant, rather than disposable magic items.
    It's a resource easy to track - just a number on your character sheet - but can become greatly interesting, especially if certain classes use resonance in their abilities.

    Honestly, I don't know why people are still complaining. It seems to be one of those mechanics which, at first people dislike it, but after some time people will get the good parts.
    As much time as I think about it, the more I like this system. So, Paizo, go on! ^^

    Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.

    YMMV but in my experience that hasn't been the case. New players have been reluctant but that had more to do with lack of experience and the more complicated nature of classes that rely on point pools. This is going to be for every character and a standard from the start, meaning its something everyone will learn how to do and be encouraged to use.

    You may also be assuming 0 resonance means you can't use magic items anymore, which also isn't the case. At 0 resonance you start making checks with increasing difficulty. This means people aren't punished for depleting their resource and allows more breathing room in their use.

    I just realized that this could mean that we can have characters with low resonance but better ability to make the check to continue using items.

    Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

    Arutema wrote:
    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.

    Exactly. Under the system as we know it, people will save their resonance for healing potions and nothing else!

    Thus I would strongly urge the devs to exclude potions and scrolls from costing resonance.

    I'm making this point once more not because I'm picking on you but because I want to hammer it home to the community at large.

    0 Resonance does not mean you can't use items.

    It means you start making a check to see if you can use the item. If remember correctly only a fumble result means you can't use non-invested magic items for the rest of the day. (Paizo Person correct me please.)


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    Honestly, not only we don't know how potions and such will work, as we don't know even how Damage vs Health and Healing will work at all. These are just numbers, the kind of thing that changes a lot between editions.

    Also, if potions do use a resonance, it may make potions actually *Better* to use simply because the designers will be forced to think about cool potions worth enough to spend a point.

    But so far, we don't know the Math, so worries about that are pretty much irrelevant by now - while also being extremely important at playtest.

    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.

    Really? In all my experience, it's much more probable that players will spend all their points at first, and then, after some bad experiences, start being smart with them.


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    Bulmahn wrote:
    "Hmm... I keep seeing posts that tracking one pool of points is too fiddly. It's odd, considering that it's meant to replace a system where everything had its own personal system of usage with times per day, total charges, and time based limits. Of course, I have plenty of reservations about this particular mechanic. We're definitely pushing the envelope here, but fiddly is not the complaint I expected to see so frequently."

    Omg, that was exactly what i kept seeing that made me bail on the bigger resonance thread. One user kept just saying it was too complex and wouldn’t say why, while other people kept calling it too fiddly. It is two numbers you add together and then use for everything! I love how much it streamlines magic item use, and can’t wait to see more info on how it will be used.


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    My problem is how much it’s going to shackle seeing anything used, especially the unique but less potent stuff that no one is going to use up their precious point pool on.


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    Cuttlefist wrote:
    Bulmahn wrote:
    "Hmm... I keep seeing posts that tracking one pool of points is too fiddly. It's odd, considering that it's meant to replace a system where everything had its own personal system of usage with times per day, total charges, and time based limits. Of course, I have plenty of reservations about this particular mechanic. We're definitely pushing the envelope here, but fiddly is not the complaint I expected to see so frequently."
    Omg, that was exactly what i kept seeing that made me bail on the bigger resonance thread. One user kept just saying it was too complex and wouldn’t say why, while other people kept calling it too fiddly. It is two numbers you add together and then use for everything! I love how much it streamlines magic item use, and can’t wait to see more info on how it will be used.

    I've been having the same persistent thought as you guys when I see those posts. Like, WTF are they thinking? How is this harder? This is way easier.

    Instead of having to track that item A has an ability usable 2/day, and item B has ability B.1 usable 1/hour and ability B.2 usable 3/day and ability B.3 usable 1/week, and item C has 17 charges, and item D has 4 charges but two abilities one of which uses 2 charges and the item regains 1 charge at midnight but crumbles to dust if you empty it to 0 charges... you just say each of those abilities costs resonance. They come out of a single pool. All you have to keep track of is the abilities, and make a note for any rare super-abilities that cost 2 resonance instead of 1.

    That is so much simpler. How are people not grokking this?

    Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    How are people not grokking this?

    Not to defend their position but:

    Some people learn by reading and theory. Some people learn by application. It is possible they will get it once they see it directly in practice.

    Or not, and they will hold onto their bias with an iron grasp.


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    CalebTGordan wrote:
    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    How are people not grokking this?

    Not to defend their position but:

    Some people learn by reading and theory. Some people learn by application. It is possible they will get it once they see it directly in practice.

    Or not, and they will hold onto their bias with an iron grasp.

    Or they actually thought about it and have problems with it. Not holding your position on something doesn’t make that person biased or ignorant.

    Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

    Arssanguinus wrote:
    My problem is how much it’s going to shackle seeing anything used, especially the unique but less potent stuff that no one is going to use up their precious point pool on.

    I can see that as a possibility but I think it will be an unlikely one. It looks like the system is going to have more interesting items but players are going to be relying on fewer items overall.

    If we are going to see the average number of items PCs use drop, then there is a higher chance of each item seeing use.

    I do not know if they expect us to use fewer magic items because of resonance or because of other elements, but I look forward to seeing the whole of the things so I can understand it better.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I'm actually pretty on board with getting rid of item slots. Always felt weird that certain creatures couldn't benefit from as many magic items as others because they didn't have hands or shoulders, even if they had a million tentacles to put rings and circlets on.


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    CalebTGordan wrote:
    Arssanguinus wrote:
    My problem is how much it’s going to shackle seeing anything used, especially the unique but less potent stuff that no one is going to use up their precious point pool on.

    I can see that as a possibility but I think it will be an unlikely one. It looks like the system is going to have more interesting items but players are going to be relying on fewer items overall.

    If we are going to see the average number of items PCs use drop, then there is a higher chance of each item seeing use.

    I do not know if they expect us to use fewer magic items because of resonance or because of other elements, but I look forward to seeing the whole of the things so I can understand it better.

    Items seeing less use is pretty close to inescapable. And almost as inevitable is that a very small amount of items will see the actual use as being worth spending this limited resource on.


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    I am still saying this reads as clunky and far more complex than it needs to be. It should not be another spell slot system or daily use system( which it now is). If you want to limit items, cool x number+ cha mod of X class items. 5e does this, but limits it to 3 and not all magic items count

    There is simply no need for this daily number of use pool.


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    I think it will be fine.

    Early levels you likely won't have a ton of magic items anyway.

    At higher levels, you will probably have more Resonance that you know what do do with. If each WORN magic item uses ONE Resonance, regardless of power, and the number of necessary magic items has decreased substantially, you will probably have Level + CHA - 6ish Resonance Points at higher levels.

    This coupled with stronger magic items using the same Resonance as weaker ones, just means you have to buy stronger potions/wands as you level, which makes sense.

    I only see a potential issue if you want to be a walking magic item store, or at low levels. To be honest, the average life expectancy of a new adventurer should probably be pretty low anyway. Otherwise EVERYONE would be adventurers.


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    Thing is, this is better than 5e's solution. It solves everything from wands/staves/rods, to not needing excess potion, to have re-balanced items.

    Honestly, all of that tells me is that the designers will have to think about cool, useful magical items instead of a bunch of specific items that, while being flavorful, are pretty much useless.
    They'll have to make cool weapons, cool potions, cool stuff ^^


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    All of which will see only limited use.


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    Arssanguinus wrote:

    All of which will see only limited use.

    Magic should be limited, not free. That will make players think well about which cool magical items use. That's cool ^^


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    As I said in another thread; The immediate consequence of this is that magic items are potentially hardcore given that they share a resource.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I'll say it again here: If you want to wear a set of equipment that can do x, y and z but can't because you're too low level that is a hard Item Level system. I don't know if people are okay with that, but I certainly find it distasteful. Starfinder, which has soft item level, received flak for even suggesting the idea.

    Furthermore, I'm personally up in arms about Resonance so far because all the things it professes to fix were not problems for me. I like having lots of gear and using all of it. I like gear slots because they're quick and intuitive. I like wands of Cure Light Wounds. I've always thought hard about dumping charisma, and charisma has always been valued in my games. I like having a bag of potions and scrolls. I've never even come close to having trouble tracking various resources.

    There are so many issues with the system from what I can tell so far that I don't think it is at all out of order to start ringing some alarms. Completely regardless of how healing ends up working, Resonance means drastic changes to the feel of the game, options for storytelling, and integration with the world. Here are some of my concerns from the other thread:

    1. You can't give players access to gear above their pay grade, even if your story calls for it, without hand waving resonance.

    2. NPCs have to be high level to use gear, unless you give them special exemptions.

    3. Resonance costs mean planning out at the start of the day which of your hard earned gear gets benched, and how many potions you'll use. Unless resonance limits are never reached, in which case it's pointless resource tracking. Note: some players hate playing prepared casters because they don't want to plan junk in the morning, but now everyone has to to some degree.

    4. Resonance varying between characters can mean uneven loot distribution.

    5. Gold will be of diminished value, due to the removal of gold = personal power. How that affects the feel of the game remains to be determined.

    These issues need to be discussed. It might all work out fine, but I want the devs to be clear about my current reservations.


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    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:

    I am still saying this reads as clunky and far more complex than it needs to be. It should not be another spell slot system or daily use system( which it now is). If you want to limit items, cool x number+ cha mod of X class items. 5e does this, but limits it to 3 and not all magic items count

    There is simply no need for this daily number of use pool.

    It’s literally in no way more complex than keeping track of charges and daily/hourly uses of a dozen different items and having to invest skill points in UMD of the item you are using requires it with your class. With this magic items can be bigger and have better effects and balance out how many fewer uses you will get on some and more on others.

    I think we will all be surprised when we see what kind of cool items they will be replacing all of the “+2 to STR” and other tiny bonuses with. We really cannot speak on the necessity until we see the full results.


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    Doesn’t matter how cool items are if they never see use because of resonance costs.


    WatersLethe wrote:

    I'll say it again here: If you want to wear a set of equipment that can do x, y and z but can't because you're too low level that is a hard Item Level system. I don't know if people are okay with that, but I certainly find it distasteful. Starfinder, which has soft item level, received flak for even suggesting the idea.

    Furthermore, I'm personally up in arms about Resonance so far because all the things it professes to fix were not problems for me. I like having lots of gear and using all of it. I like gear slots because they're quick and intuitive. I like wands of Cure Light Wounds. I've always thought hard about dumping charisma, and charisma has always been valued in my games. I like having a bag of potions and scrolls. I've never even come close to having trouble tracking various resources.

    There are so many issues with the system from what I can tell so far that I don't think it is at all out of order to start ringing some alarms. Completely regardless of how healing ends up working, Resonance means drastic changes to the feel of the game, options for storytelling, and integration with the world. Here are some of my concerns from the other thread:

    1. You can't give players access to gear above their pay grade, even if your story calls for it, without hand waving resonance.

    2. NPCs have to be high level to use gear, unless you give them special exemptions.

    3. Resonance costs mean planning out at the start of the day which of your hard earned gear gets benched, and how many potions you'll use. Unless resonance limits are never reached, in which case it's pointless resource tracking. Note: some players hate playing prepared casters because they don't want to plan junk in the morning, but now everyone has to to some degree.

    4. Resonance varying between characters can mean uneven loot distribution.

    5. Gold will be of diminished value, due to the removal of gold = personal power. How that affects the feel of the game remains to be determined.

    These issues need to be discussed. It might...

    1. I don't know where you get that. As it appears, a Staff of the Magi will be useful for level 1 characters already. It just means that you may not activate/equip items as much as you want. That's fine. Limit magic.

    2. View point 1.
    3. This is strategy and tactics. The devs have already said this is a tactical roleplaying game. If we go to road of "never needing to think about what will come", I'm out.
    4. Not really, this is up to players.
    5. Go look at old school AD&D. You normally cannot buy magical items, but gold serves for a lot of purposes, unless your PCs are only murderhobos with little to do beyond just killing stuff endlessly.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Cuttlefist wrote:
    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:

    I am still saying this reads as clunky and far more complex than it needs to be. It should not be another spell slot system or daily use system( which it now is). If you want to limit items, cool x number+ cha mod of X class items. 5e does this, but limits it to 3 and not all magic items count

    There is simply no need for this daily number of use pool.

    It’s literally in no way more complex than keeping track of charges and daily/hourly uses of a dozen different items and having to invest skill points in UMD of the item you are using requires it with your class. With this magic items can be bigger and have better effects and balance out how many fewer uses you will get on some and more on others.

    I think we will all be surprised when we see what kind of cool items they will be replacing all of the “+2 to STR” and other tiny bonuses with. We really cannot speak on the necessity until we see the full results.

    In PF1e, activating a magic item with charges or uses means interacting with the resource tracking for that item when you use it. You don't have to think about it at all unless it comes up.

    In PF2e, activating a magic item means evaluating every other use for that resource at your disposal to see if there is a current or future more optimal use for that point of Resonance.

    Example: "The quest giver made sure we had these water breathing potions, but I'm pretty hurt. If I drink a healing potion now, there's a 50% chance I'll be unable to use that water breathing potion later on, for that portion of the dungeon. Plus, my dungeoneering check let me know there are poisonous enemies in the area. What if I need a restoration potion more urgently later."

    PF1e: "Oof, hurt, better quaff a healing potion."


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    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Doesn’t matter how cool items are if they never see use because of resonance costs.

    Some people never use elixirs in a Final Fantasy game because they're always worried about some theoretical future battle where they might somehow need all the elixirs ever. They will go so far as to die and reload rather than use their items, and end the game with 99.

    Those people are, bluntly, idiots. It's not the game designer's problem to try to design around people that won't use the cool s&~& they have in abundance because of some fear that after they use 7 daily item powers to do awesome things that help them advance their goals here and now, they might fail on some theoretical 8th.

    Silver Crusade

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    So healing isn’t an automatic choice but an interesting one? Hot digitty this is even better than I thought.


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    WatersLethe wrote:
    Cuttlefist wrote:
    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:

    I am still saying this reads as clunky and far more complex than it needs to be. It should not be another spell slot system or daily use system( which it now is). If you want to limit items, cool x number+ cha mod of X class items. 5e does this, but limits it to 3 and not all magic items count

    There is simply no need for this daily number of use pool.

    It’s literally in no way more complex than keeping track of charges and daily/hourly uses of a dozen different items and having to invest skill points in UMD of the item you are using requires it with your class. With this magic items can be bigger and have better effects and balance out how many fewer uses you will get on some and more on others.

    I think we will all be surprised when we see what kind of cool items they will be replacing all of the “+2 to STR” and other tiny bonuses with. We really cannot speak on the necessity until we see the full results.

    In PF1e, activating a magic item with charges or uses means interacting with the resource tracking for that item when you use it. You don't have to think about it at all unless it comes up.

    In PF2e, activating a magic item means evaluating every other use for that resource at your disposal to see if there is a current or future more optimal use for that point of Resonance.

    Example: "The quest giver made sure we had these water breathing potions, but I'm pretty hurt. If I drink a healing potion now, there's a 50% chance I'll be unable to use that water breathing potion later on, for that portion of the dungeon. Plus, my dungeoneering check let me know there are poisonous enemies in the area. What if I need a restoration potion more urgently later."

    PF1e: "Oof, hurt, better quaff a healing potion."

    So it's not more book-keeping, but it's a tactically much harder decision since it comes with opportunity costs. Different things.


    Cuttlefist wrote:
    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:

    I am still saying this reads as clunky and far more complex than it needs to be. It should not be another spell slot system or daily use system( which it now is). If you want to limit items, cool x number+ cha mod of X class items. 5e does this, but limits it to 3 and not all magic items count

    There is simply no need for this daily number of use pool.

    It’s literally in no way more complex than keeping track of charges and daily/hourly uses of a dozen different items and having to invest skill points in UMD of the item you are using requires it with your class. With this magic items can be bigger and have better effects and balance out how many fewer uses you will get on some and more on others.

    I think we will all be surprised when we see what kind of cool items they will be replacing all of the “+2 to STR” and other tiny bonuses with. We really cannot speak on the necessity until we see the full results.

    I never said it was more complex than that. I stated, as you can see that " clunky and far more complex than it needs to be". I don't think it needs this level of fiddly, it seems to be designed to be fiddy , clunky and complex just to be fiddly, clunky and complex. You can limit item uses in other ways that do not require book keeping or rules bloat.


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    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:
    I never said it was more complex than that. I stated, as you can see that " clunky and far more complex than it needs to be". I don't think it needs this level of fiddly, it seems to be designed to be fiddy , clunky and complex just to be fiddly, clunky and complex. You can limit item uses in other ways that do not require book keeping or rules bloat.

    Fiddly, clunky and complex just seem to be words you are using to say you don’t like the change. It’s just not any of those things, in comparison to the previous system or in comparison to some other imaginary system we might be comparing it to. If adding two numbers and using the sum to determine how many magic items you can equip and then use for the day without trouble is too complex I cannot imagine what would be simple. If you just don’t like it that is one thing, but calling it complex just doesn’t feel genuine at this point.


    Cuttlefist wrote:
    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:
    I never said it was more complex than that. I stated, as you can see that " clunky and far more complex than it needs to be". I don't think it needs this level of fiddly, it seems to be designed to be fiddy , clunky and complex just to be fiddly, clunky and complex. You can limit item uses in other ways that do not require book keeping or rules bloat.
    Fiddly, clunky and complex just seem to be words you are using to say you don’t like the change. It’s just not any of those things, in comparison to the previous system or in comparison to some other imaginary system we might be comparing it to. If adding two numbers and using the sum to determine how many magic items you can equip and then use for the day without trouble is too complex I cannot imagine what would be simple. If you just don’t like it that is one thing, but calling it complex just doesn’t feel genuine at this point.

    How many times must I explain to you I am not comparing it to the old system? And you vastly oversimplified what the OP explained, by a large factor.


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    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    They will go so far as to die and reload rather than use their items, and end the game with 99.

    You'll pry those out of my cold dead hands!!! I also end fallout with every bobby pin and stimpack!!! You play your way and I'll play mine. ;)

    Shadow Lodge

    graystone wrote:
    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    They will go so far as to die and reload rather than use their items, and end the game with 99.
    You'll pry those out of my cold dead hands!!! I also end fallout with every bobby pin and stimpack!!! You play your way and I'll play mine. ;)

    A friend of mine has a stealth build in Fallout 4. He has thousands of Bobby pins and hundreds of stimpacks. It's enviable until something actually notices him and most of his strength goes out the window XD


    I would like to see characters able to reclaim resonance invested into worn equipment, either to reinvest or to spend on a single use.

    To address concerns over low level characters I would shift to 5+ cha mod (including penalties) + level

    Of course this assumes accessible and powerful and inexpensive nonmagical healing and very badass unequipped martials.


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    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Doesn’t matter how cool items are if they never see use because of resonance costs.

    I don't think you understand how large Level + CHA mod. is.

    Let's do some math:

    Assuming level 10 Human Fighter with 18 CON and 10 CHA, you would have 148 HP and 10 Resonance.

    A level 10 Cleric's healing spell a la PF1 heals 4d8+10 HP.

    Assuming this character uses half his resonance for magic items (weapons don't count towards this), he can heal 20d8 + 50 damage per day off of potions. (average 140 healing) THEN, he gets to make Resonance Checks. What fighter have you played where you burn through 288 HP in ONE day at level 10, without some serious stuff going down?


    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:
    Cuttlefist wrote:
    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:
    I never said it was more complex than that. I stated, as you can see that " clunky and far more complex than it needs to be". I don't think it needs this level of fiddly, it seems to be designed to be fiddy , clunky and complex just to be fiddly, clunky and complex. You can limit item uses in other ways that do not require book keeping or rules bloat.
    Fiddly, clunky and complex just seem to be words you are using to say you don’t like the change. It’s just not any of those things, in comparison to the previous system or in comparison to some other imaginary system we might be comparing it to. If adding two numbers and using the sum to determine how many magic items you can equip and then use for the day without trouble is too complex I cannot imagine what would be simple. If you just don’t like it that is one thing, but calling it complex just doesn’t feel genuine at this point.
    How many times must I explain to you I am not comparing it to the old system? And you vastly oversimplified what the OP explained, by a large factor.

    You have to explain it exactly zero more times because I did not say that you were comparing it to the older system. The sentence that referenced the older system AT ALL included a few words to indicate that it was a generalized statement about comparable systems, not just the previous system. And no, I did not vastly oversimplify. It really is that straightforward. I have no idea what you keep adding to it in your mind that makes it more complicated. The only thing I left out was needing to roll a flat number that increases with each attempt when you run out of points. Also very straightforward and not complex. Please enlighten me as to what it is I ammissing here.


    Dragonborn3 wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    They will go so far as to die and reload rather than use their items, and end the game with 99.
    You'll pry those out of my cold dead hands!!! I also end fallout with every bobby pin and stimpack!!! You play your way and I'll play mine. ;)
    A friend of mine has a stealth build in Fallout 4. He has thousands of Bobby pins and hundreds of stimpacks. It's enviable until something actually notices him and most of his strength goes out the window XD

    Stealth? My tactic it to run up to a foe and stick my automatic weapon against them and fire until they die... Granted, being able to heal damage/wound with radiation helps. ;)


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    Arssanguinus wrote:
    CalebTGordan wrote:
    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    How are people not grokking this?

    Not to defend their position but:

    Some people learn by reading and theory. Some people learn by application. It is possible they will get it once they see it directly in practice.

    Or not, and they will hold onto their bias with an iron grasp.

    Or they actually thought about it and have problems with it. Not holding your position on something doesn’t make that person biased or ignorant.

    While generally true, in this specific case it's quite literally ignorance. We haven't seen the full rules yet, so we can't make a proper anysis of how this will work. Any analysis done now is incomplete and done out of ignorance. Including my own.


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    ChibiNyan wrote:

    So it's not more book-keeping, but it's a tactically much harder decision since it comes with opportunity costs. Different things.

    Complex? No. Tactical/Strategical? Oh yeah, I'm on it.

    Honestly, the devs have already said there's healing enough so that people keeping all their points to healing potions isn't needed.
    Not that we have so many healing potions, anyway...


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    Cuttlefist wrote:


    You have to explain it exactly zero more times because I did not say that you were comparing it to the older system. The sentence that referenced the older system AT ALL included a few words to indicate that it was a generalized statement about comparable systems, not just the previous system. And no, I did not vastly oversimplify. It really is that straightforward. I have no idea what you keep adding to it in your mind that makes it more complicated. The only thing I left out was needing to roll a flat number that increases with each attempt when you run out of points. Also very straightforward and not complex. Please enlighten me of what’s i am missing here.

    Sigh, this is the issue, you like the clunky, fiddly and needless complexity. It adds another thing to the game you must track, another point of freeze and argument, another slowdown of the already slow combat. It is another thing that needs to be tracked all the time, that should not need to be tracked. And its not even static.

    Its another pool, another resource to track in game that is already fiddly as hell. And you seemingly do not see this as an issue.


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    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:


    Sigh, this is the issue, you like the clunky, fiddly and needless complexity. It adds another thing to the game you must track, another point of freeze and argument, another slowdown of the already slow combat. It is another thing that needs to be tracked all the time, that should not need to be tracked. And its not even static.

    Its another pool, another resource to track in game that is already fiddly as hell. And you seemingly do not see this as an issue.

    Right now, you note down charges for each charged item, each X/day uses, each Y hours/day stuff, and are always thinking about how much you still can use any of those items.

    With resonance, you have one thing to track off. And it's easy to track as HPs.
    No, I'm not seeing this HUGE increase in complexity.


    Igwilly wrote:


    Right now, you note down charges for each charged item, each X/day uses, each Y hours/day stuff, and are always thinking about how much you still can use any of those items.
    With resonance, you have one thing to track off. And it's easy to track as HPs.
    No, I'm not seeing this HUGE increase in complexity.

    Sigh, why most it sty the same level or more? What is the point of being complex to be complex? new edition should make the game better, not just more fiddly or the same mount of fiddly in brand new complicated way.

    That is my issue, you don't need the fiddly.


    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:

    Sigh, this is the issue, you like the clunky, fiddly and needless complexity. It adds another thing to the game you must track, another point of freeze and argument, another slowdown of the already slow combat. It is another thing that needs to be tracked all the time, that should not need to be tracked. And its not even static.

    Its another pool, another resource to track in game that is already fiddly as hell. And you seemingly do not see this as an issue.

    As it stands, my PF characters have use the second spell column on their sheets to keep track of about half a dozen minor uses-per-day items.

    Now, instead, I'll be keeping track of half a dozen less-minor options for a resource pool.

    Instead of never using potions because their limited duration and relative to their cost makes them feel like a bad idea to use in most situations, I'll have new and different reasons to never use potions.


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    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:


    Sigh, why most it sty the same level or more? What is the point of being complex to be complex? new edition should make the game better, not just more fiddly or the same mount of fiddly in brand new complicated way.

    That is my issue, you don't need the fiddly.

    It's not being complex to being complex. It's being complex to improve the game.

    Let me say that this mechanics improves a lot of stuff, not just banning CLW wand-spamming.

    Look, it is crystal clear to me that the devs want something elaborated for combat, character building and so on. We already have Tons of systems specialized in solving combat in the fastest, easiest, most strategically/tactically boring way possible. I don't need another one, and I'm here to have a good complex system.


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    Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:
    Igwilly wrote:


    Right now, you note down charges for each charged item, each X/day uses, each Y hours/day stuff, and are always thinking about how much you still can use any of those items.
    With resonance, you have one thing to track off. And it's easy to track as HPs.
    No, I'm not seeing this HUGE increase in complexity.

    Sigh, why most it sty the same level or more? What is the point of being complex to be complex? new edition should make the game better, not just more fiddly or the same mount of fiddly in brand new complicated way.

    That is my issue, you don't need the fiddly.

    The whole point we keep trying to make is this is LESS complex and LESS fiddly than PF1E, not more or as complex in a different way. If you have 9 different limited use items like wands, rods, activated rings, etc, you don't have to keep track of every item's charges and uses per day/hour/etc anymore. They all come out of one pool and you can manage it with a single line list.


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    CalebTGordan wrote:
    Arutema wrote:
    Arssanguinus wrote:
    Except no one is going to want to spend their resonance points. Happens every time there is a limited pool.

    Exactly. Under the system as we know it, people will save their resonance for healing potions and nothing else!

    Thus I would strongly urge the devs to exclude potions and scrolls from costing resonance.

    I'm making this point once more not because I'm picking on you but because I want to hammer it home to the community at large.

    0 Resonance does not mean you can't use items.

    It means you start making a check to see if you can use the item. If (I) remember correctly only a fumble result means you can't use non-invested magic items for the rest of the day. (Paizo Person correct me please.)

    I bolded the part of this quote I'm mostly, talking about.

    Resonance is a game mechanic designed to increase the value of charisma. Or so it seems (to me at least). I'm OK with that.

    I'm profoundly not OK with critical misses, and/or fumbles. I've always found such rules to be opposite of fun. (Already having a bad day because I can't get a decent roll; now I get a horrible effect that reduces success chances even further. Meanwhile, all the others players are gaining joy from my misfortune. Nope, I don't love them critical miss rules, no, not at all.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    thflame wrote:
    Assuming level 10 Human Fighter with 18 CON and 10 CHA, you would have 148 HP and 10 Resonance.

    Given that the game will be using Starfinder-style ability score advancement, I think you could very easily assume a 10th level fighter will have Cha 14 at least...

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