Seeking + Bow: Any official errata?


Rules Questions


Have they ever produced errata/FAQ on whether if you put Seeking on a bow does it transmit it's ability to arrows.
Or whether you have to enchant the arrows with Seeking?

The latest Core online still has it listed as an ability that isn't passed to it's ammunition.

As the the Ultimate Equipment, which also notes that the ability can be placed on ammunition.

I found a post here from a developer, older than the most recent rulebook uploads, saying that if placed on a bow it does confer the ability on ammunition.

I'm asking because otherwise it seems a no brainer +1 enhancement bonus to put on a bow.
Ignore Blink, concealment, displacement, various air shield type deflection ability, Mirror Images (close your eyes and your arrows hit so long as you make the attack roll).
Strictly speaking it even gets past Deflect Arrows as that ability causes the arrow to have a 100% miss chance.

All for a +1 Enhancement on your bow...


I am unaware of such errata. As written, you'd have to throw your bow at the enemy. (This is silly; therefore, I recommend ignoring it if possible.)


I get the feeling that you aren't supposed to put Seeking on a Bow.
You put it on an Arrow instead.

Which I have to admit seems fine to me.
For a +1 enhancement is hugely powerful.
Only working when cast on ammo or a thrown weapon balances it out as far as I can see.

If it actually worked when cast on a Bow it looks pretty broken.


I’m not sure where you were looking. It specifically says that it’s placed on a ranged weapon?

PFSRD wrote:

Price +1 bonus

Aura strong divination; CL 12th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

This special ability can only be placed on ranged weapons. A seeking weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, true seeing; Cost +1 bonus


Speaker for the Dead wrote:
I’m not sure where you were looking. It specifically says that it’s placed on a ranged weapon?

Yes, and a bow is classified as a ranged weapon while arrows are classified as ammunition. So, are you trying to say that, because this ability can. RAW, only be placed on a bow (and not the arrows it uses), it must definitely pass its ability to arrows fired by it?


The enchantment goes on the bow, itself, as the bow is a ranged weapon, and thus qualifies for the only on ranged weapons part of the enchantment.

The arrows do the seeking, as the enchantment even mentions arrows as a specific example of what this enchantment is meant to and can do.

+2 Seeking bows are pretty standard equipment, even as loot.

Out of all the poorly written pieces on content out there, this enchantment is actually really straightforward and does exactly as it says it does.


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I don't consider it any more powerful than putting it on a chakram and wearing a blinkback belt--hence my advice to ignore it if you're the GM.


The tables for magic weapon abilities in the CRB and the Ultimate Equipment guide note that the Seeking ability if placed on a Bow DOESN'T apply the ability to the Arrows.

The Table in the Ultimate Equipment Guide for Ammunition enchantments notes that Seeking is one of the enchantments you can put on ammunition

Nothing in the rules contradicts this in any way and they haven't been modified in errata that has been released since the question has been ruled. At least none of the errata I've found. Which is why I asked if someone knew of errata I had missed.

So yes you can put Seeking on a bow but it does nothing unless you throw the bow.

As for whether Seeking Bows are standard loot items, I've never seen any but I'm not an expert of Modules.
But what I do know from my experience regarding modules is that rule details are frequently in error.
Note: This is not a slight on Module designers but rather noting been a rules expert is not an important skill for a Module writer.


Ultrace wrote:
Speaker for the Dead wrote:
I’m not sure where you were looking. It specifically says that it’s placed on a ranged weapon?
Yes, and a bow is classified as a ranged weapon while arrows are classified as ammunition. So, are you trying to say that, because this ability can. RAW, only be placed on a bow (and not the arrows it uses), it must definitely pass its ability to arrows fired by it?

Yes I am saying that. I don't have ultimate equipment but the core rules seems to say that you place the enhancement on the bow. In fact "this special ability can only be placed on ranged weapons."


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Speaker for the Dead wrote:
Ultrace wrote:
Speaker for the Dead wrote:
I’m not sure where you were looking. It specifically says that it’s placed on a ranged weapon?
Yes, and a bow is classified as a ranged weapon while arrows are classified as ammunition. So, are you trying to say that, because this ability can. RAW, only be placed on a bow (and not the arrows it uses), it must definitely pass its ability to arrows fired by it?
Yes I am saying that. I don't have ultimate equipment but the core rules seems to say that you place the enhancement on the bow. In fact "this special ability can only be placed on ranged weapons."

Yes, you can place the enchantment on your Bow. But it doesn't do anything unless you throw the Bow at someone.

Ultimate Equipment - Scroll down to Ranged Weapon enhancements note that Seeking doesn't have the subscript "3" that indicates the ability is passed on to the ammunition.
Scroll down further and you see Seeking is given as an enchantment that can be placed on ammunition

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/weap onSpecialAbilities.html

Core Rulebook - Scroll down to Ranged Weapon enhancements note that Seeking doesn't have the subscript "2" that indicates the ability is passed on to the ammunition.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems/weapons.html

Unless you can show a rule that clearly indicates that a Seeker Bow passes the ability on to an arrow then the RAW has to be that it doesn't.
Note: I say rule, not something in a adventure path.

(Sorry, couldn't remember how to create a link)


It is meant to go on weapons.
Here is a an older discussion with a ruling from a developer: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qwfm?Seeking-weapon-property#1


It has never been any doubt, for me or any player I came in contact with, that Seeking works on projectile weapons and allows the shot ammunition to seek its target. Anything else would be jumping through hoops to deify a printing error.

As a GM, if I ever find Seeking too powerful, to the point of having all players suddenly creating archers, I will not go online and whine to have a FAQ reducing its effectiveness. I will have enemies using it against the PCs (who will adapt, no doubt), and also find ways to reduce its effectiveness in-game (by bringing the fight up close and personal, for instance).

As a player, I would not cry about it, even if my character seems seriously underpowered in comparison to an OP archer. The game is a game, and its goal is that everybody spends a good time. If I don't spend a good time, I'll mention it to the others (out of the game itself). If they don't get the message, I go find another group, or play something else.

Silver Crusade

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Sometimes the Rules Forum reaches levels of obtuseness so overwhelming that stun me for 1d4 rounds.


It probably doesn't apply to bows because of the way that ranged attacks with bows increase exponentially with the addition of things such as Rapid Shot and Multi-shot. So, yeah. You seem to need to enchant the arrow, which is quite expensive for a one hit item and thus impractical.

Silver Crusade

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So to summarise.

On one hand we have years of people applying the Seeking enhancement to bows rather than ammunition both on home games and PFS, official items such as the Windreader's Bow, the Daikyu of Commanding Presence, the Crossbow of Retribution, official creatures such as the Eygreas or the Shadow Cleric and, last but not least, common sense...

...on the other we have a missing subscript, most probably a mistake.

I wonder which one of the two makes the strongest point.


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Did no one read the post from the DEVELOPMENT TEAM in the forum that I tried to link in? It is for weapons. The 'missing script' is applied to enhancements that alter damage.


Evangelion wrote:
Did no one read the post from the DEVELOPMENT TEAM in the forum that I tried to link in? It is for weapons. The 'missing script' is applied to enhancements that alter damage.

probably because you didn't linkify it but as it stands that ruling predates their new errata that no properties on projectile weapons apply their abilities to the projectiles they are shooting. That errata makes things a whole lot worse for every one involved.


And it only really matters if this is a PFS or similar campaign. Otherwise the final arbiter as always is the DM.


Link from above to John Compton's statement.

With PF2 incoming, this is the only errata we;ll ever receive.


Kayerloth wrote:
And it only really matters if this is a PFS or similar campaign. Otherwise the final arbiter as always is the DM.

PFS clarified that seeking works on bows, etc.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
And it only really matters if this is a PFS or similar campaign. Otherwise the final arbiter as always is the DM.
PFS clarified that seeking works on bows, etc.

Which, for me, is how it should be. Much like Louis IX I've never encountered anyone who thought differently.

Otherwise unless making a very unusual Bow it's inconsistent to add nearly "anything" to the Bow including making the Bow +N. Adaptive perhaps, for example, might be on that short list.


blahpers wrote:
I am unaware of such errata. As written, you'd have to throw your bow at the enemy. (This is silly; therefore, I recommend ignoring it if possible.)

Adding that to my houserules Doc now.


Stephen Ede wrote:

I get the feeling that you aren't supposed to put Seeking on a Bow.

You put it on an Arrow instead.

Which I have to admit seems fine to me.
For a +1 enhancement is hugely powerful.
Only working when cast on ammo or a thrown weapon balances it out as far as I can see.

If it actually worked when cast on a Bow it looks pretty broken.

I am baffled by this statement. So many bows have been made that have seeking. Saying you have to throw the bow is the same as saying that even though the bow is +1 to have your arrows benefit from +1 they would have to be magic not the bow.


I guess distance, planar, cunnimg, cruel, limning all dont work. All the enchamtments that don't appear on the table don't work. And, all the specific items with those abilities dont work. Is this right?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Listen.

The clarification about ammunition is about material equivalents, like Cold Iron and the like for the + bonus scale. The arrows likely need to be the different materials or have the +bonus equivalents themselves. Seeking and other stuff, like Bane, can still be put on a bow and will work with the arrows it shoots.

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