Seeking weapon property


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

One of my local GMs said to me lately that the seeking weapon property should apply to ammunition fired from say seeking gun or bow, and that Sean has confirmed that as a printing error in the ultimate equipment... great, totally makes sense. Does anyone know when the FAQ will be updated????

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The same language is in the current core and there is a picture on Core p475 of a "Seeking Crossbow" which wouldn't work if it didn't apply to the bolts.

Can you find the comment from sean?

Dark Archive

There is no comment from sean on the boards I have found and we've been over this seeking enchant question repeatedly. Seeking doesn't work the way you are thinking, it doesn't apply to ammunition fired from the bow. If you wanted to throw the bow/crossbow at the target it totally works that way though.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I did check all his posts and there isn't a single relevant one with "seeking".

It certainly does seem to be on the chart that it isn't applied to the weapon ammo fired.

I can't count the number of seeking bows I've seen. The game last night had one. Are we certain it doesn't apply?

Lantern Lodge

According to the PRD, it is both a ranged weapon and ammunition enchantment.

Liberty's Edge

James Risner wrote:

I did check all his posts and there isn't a single relevant one with "seeking".

It certainly does seem to be on the chart that it isn't applied to the weapon ammo fired.

I can't count the number of seeking bows I've seen. The game last night had one. Are we certain it doesn't apply?

I am asking the GM that mentioned this to me for a link to his blog comment.

To answer your question in the Ultimate Equipment the property does not have the little number next to it. Which mean you could have a seeking error, but not a seeking bow. which is well... pretty dumb and make the property all but useless. Lets see what i can get on this.

Lantern Lodge

Though the actual text references ranged weapon only... I'd go with the intent of the enchantment for now, and through up an errata thread for this obvious mistake or post it an errata thread.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

John Compton has said that the intent seems to be that it does transfer. I can't link the post because it's in the PFS VO forums.

Dark Archive

neferphras wrote:
James Risner wrote:

I did check all his posts and there isn't a single relevant one with "seeking".

It certainly does seem to be on the chart that it isn't applied to the weapon ammo fired.

I can't count the number of seeking bows I've seen. The game last night had one. Are we certain it doesn't apply?

I am asking the GM that mentioned this to me for a link to his blog comment.

To answer your question in the Ultimate Equipment the property does not have the little number next to it. Which mean you could have a seeking error, but not a seeking bow. which is well... pretty dumb and make the property all but useless. Lets see what i can get on this.

Dumb is a kind of a heavy criticism since seeking is a VERY powerful enchant especially at a +1 cost. This restriction makes it more of a special power used when you REALLY need it as opposed to just making those ranged builds so much more OP then they currently are.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

neferphras wrote:
Ultimate Equipment the property does not have the little number next to it.

I just read Core (6th printing) and UE (1st printing) and couldn't detect a difference between the text or chart (neither had the "2" superscript that applies to ammo.)

So I again say, they look identical to the Core rules. So if anything it is a Core rules problem.

Dark Archive

James Risner wrote:
neferphras wrote:
Ultimate Equipment the property does not have the little number next to it.

I just read Core (6th printing) and UE (1st printing) and couldn't detect a difference between the text or chart (neither had the "2" superscript that applies to ammo.)

So I again say, they look identical to the Core rules. So if anything it is a Core rules problem.

Yup, it's been this way since the game began and has intentionally stayed that way. Just because any number of GM's out there have allowed it doesn't change the fact that seeking has never officially worked with bows/crossbows or guns.


Well the description specifically mentions arrows:

seeking wrote:
Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.

So saying it doesn't work with arrows is weird.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Rikkan wrote:

Well the description specifically mentions arrows:

So saying it doesn't work with arrows is weird.

It does work if you make +1 Seeking arrows (8,000 gp for 50x) in that case.

To be clear, looking at the rules. There is no doubt the rules indicate it is a property that can exist on arrows or bows but is not transferred from the bow to arrows shot.

Whether or not RAI is to be allowed, I don't know. Allegedly John said it should in the VO forums.

But rules wise, it doesn't have the "2" superscript so it doesn't transfer from bow to shot arrows.


No, arrows are ammunition not ranged weapons. So you can't make +1 seeking arrows.


So, what, if you put this on a bow you have to throw the bow to benefit?

Dark Archive

Rikkan wrote:
No, arrows are ammunition not ranged weapons. So you can't make +1 seeking arrows.

Ammunition is specifically called out as a valid target for this enchant which overrides the exclusion you are referring to. That's why they added the chart to UE making this a legal option.

@Blahpers, yup.

Paizo Employee Developer

8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 20 people marked this as a favorite.

Good afternoon,

Following some joint investigation with the design team, we figured out what's what. The superscript 3 that designates that a ranged weapon imparts its properties to a ranged weapon almost always* accompanies an effect that would change an arrow's damage type or damage value, including flaming, holy, et cetera. As SKR noted in my conversation with him, the seeking property was originally on the sling of seeking in a previous edition and was pulled as a stand-alone special ability for Pathfinder, so the intention is certainly there that it should impart this property to its ammunition.

In brief, seeking longbows and the like are valid and effective.

*:
Designating is a little wonky in this regard, but you get the idea.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks John !!!! Much appreciated.

Liberty's Edge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
neferphras wrote:
James Risner wrote:

I did check all his posts and there isn't a single relevant one with "seeking".

It certainly does seem to be on the chart that it isn't applied to the weapon ammo fired.

I can't count the number of seeking bows I've seen. The game last night had one. Are we certain it doesn't apply?

I am asking the GM that mentioned this to me for a link to his blog comment.

To answer your question in the Ultimate Equipment the property does not have the little number next to it. Which mean you could have a seeking error, but not a seeking bow. which is well... pretty dumb and make the property all but useless. Lets see what i can get on this.

Dumb is a kind of a heavy criticism since seeking is a VERY powerful enchant especially at a +1 cost. This restriction makes it more of a special power used when you REALLY need it as opposed to just making those ranged builds so much more OP then they currently are.

Very fair, i should not have said dumb.


John Compton wrote:

Good afternoon,

Following some joint investigation with the design team, we figured out what's what. The superscript 3 that designates that a ranged weapon imparts its properties to a ranged weapon almost always* accompanies an effect that would change an arrow's damage type or damage value, including flaming, holy, et cetera. As SKR noted in my conversation with him, the seeking property was originally on the sling of seeking in a previous edition and was pulled as a stand-alone special ability for Pathfinder, so the intention is certainly there that it should impart this property to its ammunition.

In brief, seeking longbows and the like are valid and effective.

** spoiler omitted **

Mr. Compton,

Tonight, during gameplay, Mr. Risner emphatically stated that the weapon property "seeking" would not apply to my arrows fired from my bow. My character is a 5 th level divine hunter paladin. Seeking is specifically stated as an option under the divine bond for the divine hunter. When you state, "in brief, seeking longbows and the like are valid and effective," do you mean a seeking longbow imparts the weapon property to ammunition fired from the weapon? It is specifically Mr. Risner's belief that seeking is valid and effective on weapons thrown at the target or ammunition that has been inchanted and then fired at the target. I am only seeking to finally put this issue to rest. I am broaching this issue with you because Mr. Risner referenced this thread, your name, and Mr. Reynold's name during the conversation during which he reached his conclusion.

Thank you,
Mr. Brunson


I'm not James or Mr. Compton but the rule is clear.

Page 469 of the Core Rulebook has a chart which lists which properties can be applied to ranged weapons.

The footnote 2 says "2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."

If you look in the chart it lists a 2 next the following magical properties which according to the footnote 2 you are allowed to apply to Bows, crossbows and slings: Bane, Flaming, Frost, Merciful, Shock, Thundering, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Flaming Burst, Holy, Icy Burst, and Unholy.

Seeking is on the list but specifically omitted along with several other properties. So you can not apply them to a bow, crossbow, or sling.

Seeking has specifically and purposefully been left off that list.

It has also been left of the list in Ultimate Equipment on page 139, and all revisions of the Core Rulebook. So this is not an error, it is a deliberate decision.

You can apply your divine bond to ranged weapons such as a javelin and it would work, but you can not apply it to a bow and have it transfer the seeking quality to it's ammunition because it is specifically and purposefully left off the list of weapon properties you can apply to ammunition in all the reprints of the Core book and all other expansion books printed.

Grand Lodge

pianopraze wrote:

I'm not James or Mr. Compton but the rule is clear.

Page 469 of the Core Rulebook has a chart which lists which properties can be applied to ranged weapons.

The footnote 2 says "2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."

If you look in the chart it lists a 2 next the following magical properties which according to the footnote 2 you are allowed to apply to Bows, crossbows and slings: Bane, Flaming, Frost, Merciful, Shock, Thundering, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Flaming Burst, Holy, Icy Burst, and Unholy.

Seeking is on the list but specifically omitted along with several other properties. So you can not apply them to a bow, crossbow, or sling.

Seeking has specifically and purposefully been left off that list.

It has also been left of the list in Ultimate Equipment on page 139, and all revisions of the Core Rulebook. So this is not an error, it is a deliberate decision.

You can apply your divine bond to ranged weapons such as a javelin and it would work, but you can not apply it to a bow and have it transfer the seeking quality to it's ammunition because it is specifically and purposefully left off the list of weapon properties you can apply to ammunition in all the reprints of the Core book and all other expansion books printed.

Incorrect. Please, please, please read John Compton's post just a few posts up:

John Compton, Paizo Pathfinder Developer wrote:
In brief, seeking longbows and the like are valid and effective.

In other words: The seeking property does, indeed, devolve onto the arrows fired from a seeking longbow. As the rest of John's post says, the superscript is usually used on those properties that add additional damage, not on those that do not.

So, to paraphrase John Compton's post, an arrow fired from a seeking longbow will not miss due to miss chance.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

kinevon wrote:
So, to paraphrase John Compton's post, an arrow fired from a seeking longbow will not miss due to miss chance.

It doesn't appear to work in core, but if Mr. Compton wishes to deviate from the rules and make it work in PFS. I'm find by that.

The seeking property is on the ranged weapon list because Javelins are ranged weapons and can have seeking. But the seeking property was written to only apply to bundles of 50 arrows enchanted as +1 seeking for example and for non-projectile weapons.

Kinevon, check out page 139 of Ultimate Equipment.
Ranged Weapon special abilities
Seeking

Notice there is no subscript next to seeking.
Without the subscript 3 which reads "Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition" your +1 Seeking Longbow doesn't bestow Seeking upon their ammunition.

I've got no dog in this, I don't care how it works. But I do care to try to follow the rules. I also don't care if we have a FAQ/deviate for PFS. I'll follow the deviation.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
kinevon wrote:
So, to paraphrase John Compton's post, an arrow fired from a seeking longbow will not miss due to miss chance.

It doesn't appear to work in core, but if Mr. Compton wishes to deviate from the rules and make it work in PFS. I'm find by that.

The seeking property is on the ranged weapon list because Javelins are ranged weapons and can have seeking. But the seeking property was written to only apply to bundles of 50 arrows enchanted as +1 seeking for example and for non-projectile weapons.

Kinevon, check out page 139 of Ultimate Equipment.
Ranged Weapon special abilities
Seeking

Notice there is no subscript next to seeking.
Without the subscript 3 which reads "Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition" your +1 Seeking Longbow doesn't bestow Seeking upon their ammunition.

I've got no dog in this, I don't care how it works. But I do care to try to follow the rules. I also don't care if we have a FAQ/deviate for PFS. I'll follow the deviation.

James, John Compton is a Paizo Developer, not just a PFS Developer, and discussed this with SKR, of the Paizo Design Team:

Quote:
Following some joint investigation with the design team, we figured out what's what. The superscript 3 that designates that a ranged weapon imparts its properties to a ranged weapon almost always* accompanies an effect that would change an arrow's damage type or damage value, including flaming, holy, et cetera. As SKR noted in my conversation with him, the seeking property was originally on the sling of seeking in a previous edition and was pulled as a stand-alone special ability for Pathfinder, so the intention is certainly there that it should impart this property to its ammunition.

Can it get more official, or do you want it put into an FAQ so that it is inescapable?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

kinevon wrote:
Can it get more official, or do you want it put into an FAQ so that it is inescapable?

Ok, seems good to me now.

But an FAQ wouldn't hurt, as this issue comes up repetitively and is hardly overly obvious.

Liberty's Edge

I agree a FAQ update would be great, thats why i started the thread originally.


I agree with both this clarification and a rules update and or FAQ. Thank you for contributing to this discussion. It has been most informative and helpful.

Sincerely,
Mr. Brunson


In a related but unrelated question to the seeking enchanment. Im new to the whole D20 Pathfinder thing and am attempting to run the rise of the runelords but, one of my players came up with an unusual weapon I don't know how to adjudicate. The weapon is a shuriken +1, seeking, returning as it is ammunition does it reapper in the same round for flurry of blow, and as seeking does he need to roll to hit if he can see his target?


Harliquinn wrote:
In a related but unrelated question to the seeking enchanment. Im new to the whole D20 Pathfinder thing and am attempting to run the rise of the runelords but, one of my players came up with an unusual weapon I don't know how to adjudicate. The weapon is a shuriken +1, seeking, returning as it is ammunition does it reapper in the same round for flurry of blow, and as seeking does he need to roll to hit if he can see his target?

With returning it doesn't come back until just before his next turn (this would be the next round). Seeking negates miss chance from concealment but you still have to hit the target's AC. Just to note, by RAW you cannot apply returning to a shuriken as it is treated as ammunition and would be destroyed on a successful hit (and has a 50% chance of being lost/destroyed on a miss).

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