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That isn't positive, especially if all said and done you don't like PF2E but would like to continue to get setting information.
I want to see a bit more on Sarusan. Not much, maybe two or three pages in a book. Some travelers tales to hint at things, more rumors than actual information, just to get the imagination going. I would love to run an adventure in Sarusan that really emphasized the mystery and bizarreness of the place. Something to show the group just why people don't usually come back from the place. Maybe it's the last bastion of serpentfolk civilization. Maybe it's full of hostile native people that murder outsiders on sight. Maybe there is a rift into Abbadon like a daemonic version of the Worldwound. Maybe there is so much carnivorous megafauna that colonization or even exploration is next to impossible. Maybe CTHULHU. Maybe some or all of the above at the same time. Either way, I want enough information to give me a jumping off point to build my own ideas.
well, I guess, there's always Pathfinder Wiki. Which works okay, I guess. It's just that Paizo probably doesn't earn money from me visiting the Wiki. They would however earn money from the setting book they'd sell to me
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It's more of a philosophy thing.
A lot of us are completists by nature, and being editors we're also super-focused on organization and categorization.
I think this leads us to frequently cover really big topics from all kinds of different angles, but to not go particularly deep with any of them.
Lots of things to think about when it comes to treatments of Golarion in second edition, but for me, within the context of a single book, the main questions are "how wide is the focus" and "how deeply do we explore the topic."
Right now, as in the case of the Dragon Empires book, the answer is usually REALLY WIDE, ALL-INCLUSIVE, REALLY and NOT PARTICULARLY DEEP.
I am starting to think that might not be the best option in second edition.
Thanks, Erik. I’m a big fan of depth over breadth for campaign supplements. Guide to Korvosa is still gold standard, in my eyes. I struggled to read Dragon Empires thoroughly.
I think part of it is your tendency (with some exceptions) to visit a place once and then move on. I’m likely only going to see one book featuring Rahadoum - it’s going to be more useful to me actually running a game there if it’s sixty four pages rather than sixteen pages in a “Oppressive Regimes of the Inner Sea” book.
It's more of a philosophy thing.
A lot of us are completists by nature, and being editors we're also super-focused on organization and categorization.
I think this leads us to frequently cover really big topics from all kinds of different angles, but to not go particularly deep with any of them.
Lots of things to think about when it comes to treatments of Golarion in second edition, but for me, within the context of a single book, the main questions are "how wide is the focus" and "how deeply do we explore the topic."
Right now, as in the case of the Dragon Empires book, the answer is usually REALLY WIDE, ALL-INCLUSIVE, REALLY and NOT PARTICULARLY DEEP.
I am starting to think that might not be the best option in second edition.
Thanks, Erik. I’m a big fan of depth over breadth for campaign supplements. Guide to Korvosa is still gold standard, in my eyes. I struggled to read Dragon Empires thoroughly.
I think part of it is your tendency (with some exceptions) to visit a place once and then move on. I’m likely only going to see one book featuring Rahadoum - it’s going to be more useful to me actually running a game there if it’s sixty four pages rather than sixteen pages in a “Oppressive Regimes of the Inner Sea” book.
agreed
How the f... is that positive?
Because I could see books say, themed on martial arts or Asian themes, that would include player stuff (like a new version of the ninja for instance), and also include a large chunk of information relevant to the Dragon Empires. Before it would all be generic.
Basically...while it's not as ideal as a whole setting hardcover, it's better than nothing.
On an semi-related note, I actually prefer the broad approach to fleshing out an area first, then zeroing in with more detail. To me, Distant Shores wasn't that great because I didn't get a sense of where and how everything fit in with adjacent nations/conflicts/races/etc
It would be like if the only thing we knew about the inner sea was like..Egorian or something. That's great, we have info on the capital of a big LE empire, but who opposes them? what are all these hellknights about? What's this taldan thing about? A gazeteer like Dragon empires at least gives me a sense of how everything ties together.
Would love to see a Vudra book or AP!
Vudra pls.
I agree that more in-depth books are better. The book about Kaer Maga (I forget what it's called. City of Strangers?) lit up my imagination way more than two pages about each country in the Inner Sea World Guide.
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I still think the DE Gazeteer was the most disappointing purchase I ever made in regards to Paizo. I could see the potential of the continent, the potential a BOOK about the continent could have and realized, well this was obviously not that book. At least it left me hungry for more, but 'more' never happened.
IMHO Paizo does NOT need to re-tread what they have already done.
Doesn't matter if it was written for 3.5/P1E the setting info largely stands.
They DO really need to start chewing on regions that they have already "opened the book on" by having some info,
but which haven't really been followed thru on. That means the majority of Tian Xia which has barely been scratched,
Casmaron i.e. the rest of the Kelesh Empire which we know little of despite it's politics impacting Qadira,
Vudran tie-in for religions and ethnicities present in Inner Sea, as well as Southern Garund for simple adjacency as well as lore ties.
I'd really much rather Paizo send existing Inner Sea stuff to re-print rather than distract editorial focus
from projects which could flesh out it's world more than existing "that's China-Disneyland" de facto reality.
I would say the recent Qadira product was spot-on in regards country-specific product. Some regions could benefit even from better "zoomed out" coverage (Tian, Casmaron, S-Garund as well as others which are less priority in my book) perhaps as hard cover. The "People of" concept is good for cultures which span multiple countries, although I feel it hasn't been fully explored in the player/crunch-focused products it's been used in. I could see "People of Dragon" Tien culture/history chapter in new Dragon Kingdoms hardcover that delves into pre-history of current states, for example (broader non-country-specific history seems appropriate for such hardcovers regardless). Hell, that could be a hardcover entirely dedicated to Tien culture and modern states, which would allow both simultaneous breadth & depth (addressing Mona). That would actually build up the backbone for entire history of Tian Xia (not just Tien) since that is such vastly dominant culture (and it's history would invariably touch on interactions with Minkai, other cultures). (the same approach would apply for ex-Taldane, ex-Osironi culture groups in Inner Sea)
To me, I feel too much product is watered down for non-setting reasons, so we get "Furry Companion" lumping disparate races together with little coherence than appealing to you know who. We still know nothing about Nagajor despite being land ruled by patchwork of varying alignment naga lords, anybody who wants to seriously "roleplay" a Nagaji is left to wing it. Which gets to point for me, why am I supposed to care about these countries/ethnicities when there is no real content to explain them? "Oh you're from Dtang Ma. Cool. Next." Now obviously people can make up their own details, but that isn't really congruent with taking the setting seriously. Which supposedly is Paizo's main goal, but I really don't see it unfortunately.
It's more of a philosophy thing.
A lot of us are completists by nature, and being editors we're also super-focused on organization and categorization.
I think this leads us to frequently cover really big topics from all kinds of different angles, but to not go particularly deep with any of them.
Lots of things to think about when it comes to treatments of Golarion in second edition, but for me, within the context of a single book, the main questions are "how wide is the focus" and "how deeply do we explore the topic."
Right now, as in the case of the Dragon Empires book, the answer is usually REALLY WIDE, ALL-INCLUSIVE, REALLY and NOT PARTICULARLY DEEP.
I am starting to think that might not be the best option in second edition.
Just saying, Inner Sea World Guide is one of my favorite Pathfinder books along with Inner Sea Gods, and both of those books have a lot of breadth.
I would buy in a heart beat any book modeled after those two. Please don't shy away from publishing more lore-centric books in the future even if that means retreading a bit of common ground.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I don't like this policy. Honestly I think its a bit selfish for some staff members to hang onto certain countries in PF2, if after 10 years nothing has been published about them.
That's unfortunate, since having "champions" of various countries has been enormously beneficial to the development of the Pathfinder world.
That said, there are a few nations people would really like that are rapidly entering SOGOTP territory, so you shouldn't have to wait _too_ long for your favorite Inner Sea nation to get more development.
That said, there are a few nations people would really like that are rapidly entering SOGOTP territory, so you shouldn't have to wait _too_ long for your favorite Inner Sea nation to get more development.
Having had to google that acronym, I am now forced to ponder this question-
What's with Galt's johns?
To me Sarusan is the Lovecraftian monster of Golarion. It's all oh, what, can't make it out, it's so mysterious and unknown, wow. Leave it where it is. Give me a 64 page guide and its so is that all?, I can handle that, boring....
Personally we should have had a Golarion World Guide hardcover years ago, before Inner Sea Races, Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea Lunchboxes, etc.
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I f***ing adore the hell out of Inner Sea Races and Inner Sea Gods, probably two of my favourite Paizo books. It saddens me deeply that we never got the chance to get stuff exactly like this for Garund or the Dragon Empire or other regions in PF1
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Paizo is not a charity. They put out books which fill two criteria: authors want to write them and people want to buy them. If any of these criteria isn't strongly fulfilled, books don't get made.
Frustrations at lack of material on Garund and DE are frustrations at the player base being mostly pseudo-European fantasy fans, because Paizo has the talent to write books about weird places. It's just that with the exception of Distant Worlds, none of those "off the map" areas were met with reception that warranted expanding upon in a major, focused way.
I want to see a bit more on Sarusan. Not much, maybe two or three pages in a book. Some travelers tales to hint at things, more rumors than actual information, just to get the imagination going. I would love to run an adventure in Sarusan that really emphasized the mystery and bizarreness of the place. Something to show the group just why people don't usually come back from the place. Maybe it's the last bastion of serpentfolk civilization. Maybe it's full of hostile native people that murder outsiders on sight. Maybe there is a rift into Abbadon like a daemonic version of the Worldwound. Maybe there is so much carnivorous megafauna that colonization or even exploration is next to impossible. Maybe CTHULHU. Maybe some or all of the above at the same time. Either way, I want enough information to give me a jumping off point to build my own ideas.And so long as we don't have any of that, it will be a corner where one can stick any 3pp products one really likes into one's personal campaign's Golarion.
You can still do that even with heavily detailed areas of Golarion. Besides, two or three pages of half-truths and hearsay still isn't much, and leaves plenty of room for the GM to put their own ideas into place. It would just be nice to see that Paizo hasn't completely forgotten about Sarusan.
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I don't like this policy. Honestly I think its a bit selfish for some staff members to hang onto certain countries in PF2, if after 10 years nothing has been published about them.That's unfortunate, since having "champions" of various countries has been enormously beneficial to the development of the Pathfinder world.
That said, there are a few nations people would really like that are rapidly entering SOGOTP territory, so you shouldn't have to wait _too_ long for your favorite Inner Sea nation to get more development.
This satisfies me!
Its not that I mind "champions" of various countries. As long as that "champion" actually writes the material at some point.
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Frustrations at lack of material on Garund and DE are frustrations at the player base being mostly pseudo-European fantasy fans, because Paizo has the talent to write books about weird places. It's just that with the exception of Distant Worlds, none of those "off the map" areas were met with reception that warranted expanding upon in a major, focused way.
Not trying to oppose your point completely, but I don't see the proof for this. They have not really done these products in order to get pro/con feedback.
DE was criticized by people who LIKED Tian Xia as being too light weight. What really is the point of buying it if all it tells you is "this is Not China"? Plenty of people who may be receptive to it may have happened to not like Jade AP structure, or not like Not Japan but be open to other settings in Tian Xia. I mean, plenty of the countries have plenty going for them besides "Token Not Asia", Nagajor, Reincarnated Blues, Real Dragon Kingdom, etc. One doesn't have to deeply care about Asian culture to use that.
Same with South Garund, what evidence is there for people not liking it? They've done nothing with it besides Distant Shores which was popular, counter to your theory. Do you think Serpen Skull was unpopular, and that was because it was set in Garund? As opposed to other problems? And it being in fact EuroAvistan centric in assumption of outside explorers looting the land, a turn off to anybody actually interested in exploring local culture more deeply?
You seemed to ignore Casmaron and Vudra, but your theory is if Paizo does AP focused on core setting's biggest badguy Rovagug that deals much in the surroundings where he's burried (Gormuz), the Eurovolk will lose interest? All of these places have 'ethnic colonies' or other connections with core cultures to make it coherent if player wants to play core culture PC, although I dislike when that is assumption of AP.
I just don't see why products related to this are impossible, or why fan base prefers Paizo ignore much of the setting they themself have introduced. If an AP, it also needs to have good plot and other hooks besides "NotEthnicity". If other product, give more reasons why Tian-La Shamanism or Goku Crime Lords (etc) are something you want to get into. Exploring the variety of Naga Lords in Nagaji and their realms doesn't hinge on cultural comfort, neither does looking at "real dragon kingdom" Xa Hoi, neither does looking at new religious roles such as Oracular Court (Oracles receiving almost no attention besides Mysteries). If people aren't already familiar with these cultures, give them some stuff to work with.
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Franchise Manager
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Personally we should have had a Golarion World Guide hardcover years ago, before Inner Sea Races, Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea Lunchboxes, etc.
If we were to ever do a planet-wide guidebook, the amount of information on any given topic would have to be so small that the book would be next to useless without dozens of other, deeper-dive books to expand upon the material within. There's a reason the real-world equivalent of a "Golarion World Guide" used to take up a 25-volume set of encyclopedias.
Also, the sooner we paint in all the details on the world, the less room we have to expand into unexplored territory when we want or need to. I'd certainly hate for us to have a great Arcadia adventure path idea in 5 years only to be unable to do it the right way because we'd painted ourselves into a corner needlessly early in order to leave no corner of the world undetailed.
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Frustrations at lack of material on Garund and DE are frustrations at the player base being mostly pseudo-European fantasy fans, because Paizo has the talent to write books about weird places. It's just that with the exception of Distant Worlds, none of those "off the map" areas were met with reception that warranted expanding upon in a major, focused way.Not trying to oppose your point completely, but I don't see the proof for this. DE was criticized by people who LIKED Tian Xia as being too light weight. What really is the point of buying it if all it tells you is "this is Not China"? Plenty of people who may be receptive to it may have happened to not like Jade AP structure, or not like Not Japan but be open to other settings in Tian Xia. I mean, plenty of the countries have plenty going for them besides "Token Not Asia", Nagajor, Reincarnated Blues, Real Dragon Kingdom, etc. One doesn't have to deeply care about Asian culture to use that. Same with South Garund, what evidence is there for people not liking it? They've done nothing with it besides Distant Shores which was popular, counter to your theory.
It doesn't matter who liked and who criticised the book. Only the sales matter.
Everybody loves art books. Start a "Hey folks how about a Pathfinder art book?" thread and you'll get few hundreds posts of "sure!".
And then nobody will buy it, because that's what happens to art books.
Point is, Dragon Empires books sold so-so. Is the management going to green light another shot at the subject? Even when the line manager pitches a novel approach to Tian Xia which he or she hopes will make the book sell like hot cupcakes? Nope, the management will go with books which have better projected ROI.
When doing experimental or off the kilter stuff, sometimes you don't get a second chance, you go big or you go home. Distant Worlds went super big and that's why Traixus or Eox are what you hear about far more often than you do about Tian-La Shamanism.
Will they go with other "off the map" areas? Depending on how did Distant Shores sell, maybe, but not before a long list of better projected ROI "on the map" books get done. You say it was "popular". What does it mean? There's critical reception and there's commercial reception and they are not always the same.
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I don't know how Distant Shores sold, you are the one who said here it was exception to bad reception.
"It's just that with the exception of Distant Worlds, none of those "off the map" areas were met with reception that warranted expanding upon"
Your theory is "none of these areas met with good reception" yet most of these areas HAVEN'T BEEN DONE.
How does Dragon Empires reflect on South Garund, Casmaron, etc? It doesn't.
DE was one product. One does not speak of single product by terms "none of these areas" in plural.
DE was just weak product that wasn't very relevant for Jade AP which only had small section happen
in small part of Tian Xia and base assumption was all PCs were coming from Avistan to begin with.
You're pushing your theory that bad result in product type X (set in area X) means no more area X.
Yet bad result in Jade with princess seeking to claim throne didn't prevent same topic in Taldor AP.
I'm not clear if you think Serpent Skull is evidence against any intent for later Garund (N/S) AP.
Why doesn't it mean they won't do concept of opposed adventurer teams? Oh, they did that concept later.
So the basic logic of theory "bad result with X, won't do X again" doesn't seem to hold.
I don't see the basis for singling out very broad geographic area as special feature there.
Nobody thinks these products had no problems except for unlikeable cultural setting.
(which in Jade AP case was very weak, little of it actually was set in Tian Xia)
So... Is Rovagug really off-limits because he happened to set up nest in bad ethnicity area?
OK ciao
I don't like this policy. Honestly I think its a bit selfish for some staff members to hang onto certain countries in PF2, if after 10 years nothing has been published about them.That's unfortunate, since having "champions" of various countries has been enormously beneficial to the development of the Pathfinder world.
That said, there are a few nations people would really like that are rapidly entering SOGOTP territory, so you shouldn't have to wait _too_ long for your favorite Inner Sea nation to get more development.
Please tell me this means a Razmiran book, as that is my favorite aspect of all of Golarion. I really wanna see a Magus archetype for a Paladin of Razmir, needing a lawful neutral alignment, and gets a version of lay on hands that grants temporary hit points instead of spell combat. A smite ability that deals illusory damage would be fantastic too in place of spell strike.