The Electric Universe and Starfinder

[EltonJ]

Okay how many of you follow the Electric Universe theory? For those that don't understand, here's a movie. So, my question is, how many of you think that there should be concepts from the electric universe theory in Starfinder? Would you base your physics of the game on the electric universe?

I would.

[Azalah]

How would it be incorporated? What would really change by adding it?

[CeeJay]

Electric Universe theory doesn't seem particularly interesting either as science or as science fantasy (if adopted for the whole Starfinder setting it would arguably rule out a bunch of stuff built into it, I don't think there's a beneficial narrative trade-off there for my purposes), but you could probably make a parallel plane or demiplane based on it.

[EltonJ]

Azalah wrote:

How would it be incorporated? What would really change by adding it?

I'm not entirely sure. The only thing that would change is the Solarian, I think. And that would be flavor mostly. There are three different kinds of plasma. There is light plasma, dark plasma, and arc plasma. When a Solarian manifests his armor or blade, it would be made of plasma. The problem would be the "black hole" revelation.

It's simple to explain in the electric universe. The Solarian changes the electrical charge around his body for a short time, generating a more powerful gravity effect. Since gravity has nothing to do with mass, but electricity, the Solarian isn't increasing his density to create the effect, he's just changing the electrical field around him.

The other thing that will change is how FTL is used. Warp and Time Travel would be the two engines that will be considered. Warp works differently than in star trek (don't ask me how). However, Time Traveling to go to another planet or star is much more efficient than warp or hyperspace, given that hyperspace probably is non-existent. The only problem is that I'm not sure how a time machine works without the human element. However, I know two people that do.

Hyperspace is a good go to in Space Games because it's easy to imagine that there is a dimension where distances are shortened. All a drift engine does is access this "hyperspace" and travel from one point to the other. However, we can't currently access this other dimension, so warp and time travel are much easier ways to get around. I thought folding space would be viable. Although it turns out that with time travel, you are folding space to make the distance between two points shorter.

[thejeff]

EltonJ wrote:

Azalah wrote:

How would it be incorporated? What would really change by adding it?

I'm not entirely sure. The only thing that would change is the Solarian, I think. And that would be flavor mostly. There are three different kinds of plasma. There is light plasma, dark plasma, and arc plasma. When a Solarian manifests his armor or blade, it would be made of plasma. The problem would be the "black hole" revelation.

It's simple to explain in the electric universe. The Solarian changes the electrical charge around his body for a short time, generating a more powerful gravity effect. Since gravity has nothing to do with mass, but electricity, the Solarian isn't increasing his density to create the effect, he's just changing the electrical field around him.

The other thing that will change is how FTL is used. Warp and Time Travel would be the two engines that will be considered. Warp works differently than in star trek (don't ask me how). However, Time Traveling to go to another planet or star is much more efficient than warp or hyperspace, given that hyperspace probably is non-existent. The only problem is that I'm not sure how a time machine works without the human element. However, I know two people that do.

Hyperspace is a good go to in Space Games because it's easy to imagine that there is a dimension where distances are shortened. All a drift engine does is access this "hyperspace" and travel from one point to the other. However, we can't currently access this other dimension, so warp and time travel are much easier ways to get around. I thought folding space would be viable. Although it turns out that with time travel, you are folding space to make the distance between two points shorter.

Of course we can't currently access warp or time travel either and there are good arguments against either being possible.

[thejeff]

CeeJay wrote:

Electric Universe theory doesn't seem particularly interesting either as science or as science fantasy (if adopted for the whole Starfinder setting it would arguably rule out a bunch of stuff built into it, I don't think there's a beneficial narrative trade-off there for my purposes), but you could probably make a parallel plane or demiplane based on it.

Without looking too closely, I'd guess that Starfinder isn't sufficiently based in any kind of real scientific theory for changing it to the Electric Universe to make much difference. I mean the Drift is "technological", but explicitly based on a plane of existence newly created by a deity, so that could just as well have happened in an Electric Universe as in any other.

Apparently the way you talk about a Solarion would be different, but there's no actual science behind Solarions either so again, not a big deal.

[The Sideromancer]

It's worth pointing out that the Drift is not a size-reduced map of the material, it has its own geometry. In a way, alternate geometry becomes a larger requirement the more Electromagnetism is focused on over gravity, since gravity can alter space on its own and electromagnetism sets a hard limit in flat space (light=changing E/M fields). So if I were making a setup with more E/M and less gravity, I would absolutely use something closer to the Drift than a space-folding drive like Star Trek uses.

[EltonJ]

When one uses a time travel engine to get from star to star, it simply folds space. This is different from Star Trek's warp drive, which forms a bubble around the ship, and space just moves around the bubble.

As for not having a time machine, I'd like all naysayers to watch this video.

[thejeff]

Ah yes, the USS Eldridge and the Montauk project. Perennial favorites of conspiracy theorists everywhere. Good fun, but I'm not up for watching an hour and half about them these days.

[gustavo iglesias]

EltonJ wrote:

Although it turns out that with time travel, you are folding space to make the distance between two points shorter.

"it turns out"?

[S. J. Digriz]

Don't know much about the Electric Universe idea (its not really a theory from what I have read, more a pseudo-science mythology), but coolness can be derived from adding weird impossible physics to starfinder. I like the idea of charged, interstellar plasma arcs as space hazards, and perhaps a superweapon that could redirect those arcs.

[CeeJay]

Starfinder loves some weird impossible physics. The SRD entry on Oort Clouds is gold:

Quote:

Oort clouds exist in the vast pockets of void in interstellar space, and are impossible to avoid. They are comprised of frozen packets of water, ammonia and methane gases; are the spawning grounds of comets; and exert vast gravitational pressures upon the void in similar fashion to ocean tides.

For each 5 hexes that a vessel travels through an Oort cloud, they suffer a cumulative 5% chance of being “blown off course”, effectively doubling the number of hexes of the vessel must travel to get through the Oort cloud.

Fond as I am of wacky science fantasy I sometimes worry about its effect, in light of there being people who actually believe the Earth is flat, gravity is a hoax and physics is a lie exposed by the "Electric Universe." I sincerely hope kids playing Starfinder do not grow up believing actual Oort clouds work this way.

[thejeff]

CeeJay wrote:

Starfinder loves some weird impossible physics. The SRD entry on Oort Clouds is gold:

Quote:

Oort clouds exist in the vast pockets of void in interstellar space, and are impossible to avoid. They are comprised of frozen packets of water, ammonia and methane gases; are the spawning grounds of comets; and exert vast gravitational pressures upon the void in similar fashion to ocean tides.

For each 5 hexes that a vessel travels through an Oort cloud, they suffer a cumulative 5% chance of being “blown off course”, effectively doubling the number of hexes of the vessel must travel to get through the Oort cloud.

Fond as I am of wacky science fantasy I sometimes worry about its effect, in light of there being people who actually believe the Earth is flat, gravity is a hoax and physics is a lie exposed by the "Electric Universe." I sincerely hope kids playing Starfinder do not grow up believing actual Oort clouds work this way.

I'm pretty sure that neither the Flat Earthers or the Electric Universe people are influenced by any science fiction - other than their crackpot ideas being fictional of course.

They're not getting them out of the genre, but the other way around, if at all.
I don't think I've ever actually seen either in science fiction reading. Flat Earths in fantasy, but I think always as explicitly different from the real world. Discworld being a classic example.

[quibblemuch]

[Rant]

"So simple a school child could understand it" is hardly an endorsement of any explanation of this vast and complex cosmos. And setting up a "those mean old scientists are just trying to make us feel stupid with all their math" narrative is really not helpful.

Things are hard to understand. "Theories" that flatter prospective believers by telling them they can easily understand things if only they put aside centuries of laborious effort might make people feel better about themselves, but they only increase ignorance. And increased ignorance has never correlated with anything getting any better.

I prefer my fantasy to know it is fantasy, not to pretend to offer truth via YouTube videos alleging Math Is Bad To Make You Feel Dumb.

[/rant]

[The Sideromancer]

The best strange world shapes come from early JRPGs. On a sphere mapped to a plane, going off the east end of the map puts you at the westmost point. But if going off the north end puts you at the south as well, you have a torus. Several games take place on donut-shaped objects.

[thejeff]

The Sideromancer wrote:

The best strange world shapes come from early JRPGs. On a sphere mapped to a plane, going off the east end of the map puts you at the westmost point. But if going off the north end puts you at the south as well, you have a torus. Several games take place on donut-shaped objects.

Not just JRPGs either. A lot of early US computer RPG or strategy games worked that way too. It was easy to implement.

And they never told you that or acknowledged it. Left you to figure out for yourself what the world really looked like.

[EltonJ]

thejeff wrote:

CeeJay wrote:

Starfinder loves some weird impossible physics. The SRD entry on Oort Clouds is gold:

Quote:

Oort clouds exist in the vast pockets of void in interstellar space, and are impossible to avoid. They are comprised of frozen packets of water, ammonia and methane gases; are the spawning grounds of comets; and exert vast gravitational pressures upon the void in similar fashion to ocean tides.

For each 5 hexes that a vessel travels through an Oort cloud, they suffer a cumulative 5% chance of being “blown off course”, effectively doubling the number of hexes of the vessel must travel to get through the Oort cloud.

Fond as I am of wacky science fantasy I sometimes worry about its effect, in light of there being people who actually believe the Earth is flat, gravity is a hoax and physics is a lie exposed by the "Electric Universe." I sincerely hope kids playing Starfinder do not grow up believing actual Oort clouds work this way.

I'm pretty sure that neither the Flat Earthers or the Electric Universe people are influenced by any science fiction - other than their crackpot ideas being fictional of course.

They're not getting them out of the genre, but the other way around, if at all.
I don't think I've ever actually seen either in science fiction reading. Flat Earths in fantasy, but I think always as explicitly different from the real world. Discworld being a classic example.

Occam's Razor states that "Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected." Plus the Electric Universe theory is supported by laboratory experiments.

Now, are you going to get Neutronium out of a laboratory? Can you pack neutrons so closely together that you are actually going to get a substance out of them? Chemically, you can't.

What about a black hole? Can the laboratory actually produce a black hole singularity and use it for a power source?

Can you produce a plasmoid in the laboratory? Can you reproduce Kristian Birkland's experiments with plasma? Can you produce plasma in the laboratory and do experiments with it? Can you reproduce the Tellura experiments? How about Anthony Perat's work? Can you reproduce that?

Try making Neutronium in the laboratory.

[Obscure citations]

Here's a giant pile of literature. It's worth noting no paper supporting plasma cosmology has appeared in the last 20 years.
Impact of magnetic field on the cluster MT relation
Big bang photosynthesis and pregalactic nucleosynthesis of light elements
Priniples of physical cosmology
Physics of the plasma universe
model of the plasma universe
Can Electric Charges survive in an Inhomogenous Universe?
First-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Determination of Cosmological Parameters

[The Sideromancer]

Apparently the Plasma theory had low CMD, because it was the observed CMB that bull rushed it off the cliff.

[quibblemuch]

*slow clap*

Well played. Well. Played.

[gustavo iglesias]

EltonJ wrote:

Try making Neutronium in the laboratory

Try creating time in a laboratory.

Therefore, time does not exist?

[EltonJ]

Obscure citations wrote:

Here's a giant pile of literature. It's worth noting no paper supporting plasma cosmology has appeared in the last 20 years.

Impact of magnetic field on the cluster MT relation
Big bang photosynthesis and pregalactic nucleosynthesis of light elements
Priniples of physical cosmology
Physics of the plasma universe
model of the plasma universe
Can Electric Charges survive in an Inhomogenous Universe?
First-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Determination of Cosmological Parameters

Birkland Currents and Dark Matter -- by Dr. Donald Scott, Progress in Physics, 2017, 2018

[The Sideromancer]

I'm going to be suspect of that journal. It seems to want to rage more than anything. Given it seems to not like conventional peer review, but still calls itself peer reviewed with no way of anybody verifying that, I'll remain skeptical of anything it puts out.

[CeeJay]

Maybe we can avoid this thread further deteriorating into people actually trying to convince the rest of us that their chosen flavour of pseudoscience is credible. That's basically just depressing to watch.

[thejeff]

CeeJay wrote:

Maybe we can avoid this thread further deteriorating into people actually trying to convince the rest of us that their chosen flavour of pseudoscience is credible. That's basically just depressing to watch.

That's pretty much the point of the thread, near as I can tell.

No one actually seems to have any good ideas for relating it to Starfinder.

[thejeff]

The Sideromancer wrote:

I'm going to be suspect of that journal. It seems to want to rage more than anything. Given it seems to not like conventional peer review, but still calls itself peer reviewed with no way of anybody verifying that, I'll remain skeptical of anything it puts out.

And yeah, it looks like it's your standard alternate science journal, trying to pretend it should be taken seriously.

[The Sideromancer]

thejeff wrote:

CeeJay wrote:

Maybe we can avoid this thread further deteriorating into people actually trying to convince the rest of us that their chosen flavour of pseudoscience is credible. That's basically just depressing to watch.

That's pretty much the point of the thread, near as I can tell.

No one actually seems to have any good ideas for relating it to Starfinder.

What's to replace? It's not like it has enough of a physics sim for anything to be subbed in. Heck, you could argue SF is already closer than reality from the point of stars: No gravity is required to explain the existence of portals to the Positive Energy Plane. Sure, you can rage against the Solarion's fluff components, but when you're done I'd like some help with the PF Druid ban on metal armour.

[quibblemuch]

The Sideromancer wrote:

...but when you're done I'd like some help with the PF Druid ban on metal armour.

I'd be happy to serve as a peer reviewer for any specious journal you'd care to start. Maybe we could call it Progress in Physical Metallurgy or The New England Journal of Druidic Haberdashery...

[thejeff]

quibblemuch wrote:

The Sideromancer wrote:

...but when you're done I'd like some help with the PF Druid ban on metal armour.

I'd be happy to serve as a peer reviewer for any specious journal you'd care to start. Maybe we could call it Progress in Physical Metallurgy or The New England Journal of Druidic Haberdashery...

Perhaps you could start by submitting your article to the Journal of Irreproducible Results.

[quibblemuch]

thejeff wrote:

quibblemuch wrote:

The Sideromancer wrote:

...but when you're done I'd like some help with the PF Druid ban on metal armour.

I'd be happy to serve as a peer reviewer for any specious journal you'd care to start. Maybe we could call it Progress in Physical Metallurgy or The New England Journal of Druidic Haberdashery...

Perhaps you could start by submitting your article to the Journal of Irreproducible Results.

Working title:

The Failure of Metallurgic Interference (Ferrous and Non-Ferrous) in Quasi-Celtic-Derived Class Mechanics Nested Within Stochastically Determined Ludic Recreations: A Metastudy

[Zaister]

CeeJay wrote:

Starfinder loves some weird impossible physics. The SRD entry on Oort Clouds is gold:

Quote:

Oort clouds exist in the vast pockets of void in interstellar space, and are impossible to avoid. They are comprised of frozen packets of water, ammonia and methane gases; are the spawning grounds of comets; and exert vast gravitational pressures upon the void in similar fashion to ocean tides.

For each 5 hexes that a vessel travels through an Oort cloud, they suffer a cumulative 5% chance of being “blown off course”, effectively doubling the number of hexes of the vessel must travel to get through the Oort cloud.

Fond as I am of wacky science fantasy I sometimes worry about its effect, in light of there being people who actually believe the Earth is flat, gravity is a hoax and physics is a lie exposed by the "Electric Universe." I sincerely hope kids playing Starfinder do not grow up believing actual Oort clouds work this way.

Please take note that this is NOT from Starfinder. There are no Starfinder rules for "Oort clouds" of any kind. This is an excerpt from a third party product published by the company that maintains starjammersrd.com. Unforunately the commingle their own material with Paizo's Starfinder rules, making it difficult—as we see here—to distinguish between actual Starfinder RPG runles and their addon.

Personally, I find that method operation highly unfriendly to users and I think it might even reflect badly on Paizo and the Starfinder RPG. I know they do not claim to be a Starfinder SRD, but that doesn't really seem to help users actually recognizing that.

[The Sideromancer]

Related to tangent: AoN has begun starfinder support

[CeeJay]

Zaister wrote:

Please take note that this is NOT from Starfinder. There are no Starfinder rules for "Oort clouds" of any kind. This is an excerpt from a third party product published by the company that maintains starjammersrd.com. Unforunately the commingle their own material with Paizo's Starfinder rules, making it difficult—as we see here—to distinguish between actual Starfinder RPG runles and their addon.

Thanks for the heads-up. That is good to know.

EDIT: And now they actually have a notice up complaining they can't use the word "Starfinder" anymore. That is quite irritating.