This problem is larger than just that. "With a few exceptions, these modifiers don’t influence other statistics, so set an NPC’s Dexterity bonus where you want it without worrying that you’ll change its Armor Class, for instance." means that Dex damage won't make a monster easier to hit or reduce its ranged accuracy, Str damage won't reduce its melee accuracy, etc. From what I can tell, monsters are functionally almost entirely immune to stat damage, because they don't use their stats for anything.
If you're willing to disregard the quoted line about modifiers being irrelevant, you can have the various stats reduce the relevant skills, attack bonuses, and saves accordingly. You can do the same thing with AC, with the caveat that anything wearing actual armor has a max dex bonus to AC to take into account. Constitution would fall under the same rule - monsters treat SP and HP equivalently (e.g. an NPC envoy can heal hit points with their SP heal), so your rule about losing CR SP every 2 con would work just fine, applying to HP instead, down to a minimum of 1 per CR.
Creative Director, Starfinder
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Ability Damage" on page 252 of the Core Rulebook has the rules for ability damage.
For every 2 damage you take to an ability score, reduce your ability modifier by 1 for skills and other statistics affected by that ability.
That's the same for PCs and monsters.
The section goes on to describe the specific checks affected by ability damage in each ability score. For example, Con damage also reduces Stamina points (which means Hit Points for monsters, since they don't have SP). Dex damage reduces AC and Dex-based attack and damage rolls.
That would be my first instinct but might as well check : should we assume even scores, so that 1 point of ability damage is enough to have an effect ?
Or odd, so that we have to inflict 2 to be of any use ?
Clarification required: Since SP loss is a multiple of level, what's the multiple for monsters for HP loss due to CON damage? CR?
CR is what is used for all other abilities. CR = Level
For example, Con damage also reduces Stamina points (which means Hit Points for monsters, since they don't have SP).
Is this explicitly stated in the rules? If not, then it should be.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Sure. And while I understand what's been done with monster stats is an attempt to streamline presentation, it's starting to become detrimental to the game flow.
I'm shown that Str is +3. That'd be great if I never had to know that resulted from having a 16 Strength. Except now I do because if the monster takes 16 Str damage it goes unconscious...or is that 17 because it's both the same bonus. Str drain will start affecting it at 1 point if it's 16, but not if it's 17. One means it's knocked out sooner from Str Damage than later.
I only know that because I'm a D&D nerd from long ago, feel sorry for anyone new to the system though.
Whenever a system decides to use different stats for PCs and NPCs, it always results in issues like this when trying to figure out how something that affects PC stats affects the dissimilar NPC stats. It was a rare but continuing problem in 1e and 2e, and one of the reasons that monsters became so fully statted in 3.0.
When D&D 4E took the step of making monsters work differently from PCs, they also changed the combat system and powers so as not to reference abilities that monsters did not have. So, for example, instead of flat footed or flanked monsters losing their Dex bonus to AC, they applied a flat penalty to AC instead.
Ability damage is a feature that Starfinder really should have dropped from the game for this reason.
When D&D 4E took the step of making monsters work differently from PCs, they also changed the combat system and powers so as not to reference abilities that monsters did not have. So, for example, instead of flat footed or flanked monsters losing their Dex bonus to AC, they applied a flat penalty to AC instead.
Ability damage is a feature that Starfinder really should have dropped from the game for this reason.
Or the game could revert back to using full stats like is currently done in Pathfinder.
|
Creative Director, Starfinder
|
For example, Con damage also reduces Stamina points (which means Hit Points for monsters, since they don't have SP).Is this explicitly stated in the rules? If not, then it should be.
It's the last sentence of the "Stamina Points" paragraph on page 250 of the Core Rulebook: "If a creature doesn't have Stamina Points, damage is subtracted directly from its Hit Points."
It's also called out specifically in the "Stamina and Resolve" sidebar on page 128 of Alien Archive: "Any abilities that would normally affect an NPC's Stamina Points affect its Hit Points instead."
This is true whether a creature doesn't have any more Stamina Points left (like a wounded PC) or whether it doesn't have Stamina Points at all (like monsters).
|
Creative Director, Starfinder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure. And while I understand what's been done with monster stats is an attempt to streamline presentation, it's starting to become detrimental to the game flow.
I'm shown that Str is +3. That'd be great if I never had to know that resulted from having a 16 Strength. Except now I do because if the monster takes 16 Str damage it goes unconscious...or is that 17 because it's both the same bonus. Str drain will start affecting it at 1 point if it's 16, but not if it's 17. One means it's knocked out sooner from Str Damage than later.
I only know that because I'm a D&D nerd from long ago, feel sorry for anyone new to the system though.
"Ability Drain" on page 252 of the Core Rulebook: "If you take ability drain in the middle of the battle, the GM might have you treat it as damage until after the fight so recalculating your statistics doesn't slow the game."
Ability drain should work this way for most monsters, since they're not likely to survive after the battle anyway. If it's absolutely essential to know a monster's ability score (such as ability drain would its ability score to 0), the GM can make the determination whether that ability score is even or odd, based on the needs of their game.
You could flip a coin - heads, this monster has the odd Con score for its bonus, tails, it has the even score.
Games should not be so arbitrary, especially when there are character lives/player investments on the line.
Games should not be so arbitrary, especially when there are character lives/player investments on the line.
Then bosses have odd scores and can take the extra point, while mooks have even scores. *shrug*
But yeah, if they are going to keep ability damage / drain / boost in the game, they should have kept ability scores in the monster and NPC blocks. If they don't want to saddle monsters and NPCs with that data, they needed to remove these effects from the game or entirely rephrase them - so that instead of an effect saying "you take 2 Strength damage" it instead says "Your carrying capacity decreases by 2 and you take a -1 penalty to melee and thrown attack and damage rolls."
|
Creative Director, Starfinder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Excellent. Though I still need an answer as to whether or not it's multiplied by CR?
IMO, as a GM I really shouldn't need to be making calls about monster stats. I should be making calls about bizarre edge case rule interpretations. I'm an old hand at RPGs so I'd just happily say it's the first even number that makes the bonus and be done with it, and woe betide any player that tries to argue with me. But, you're not doing novice GMs any favors.
Lord Fyre had it correct earlier in the thread. The relevant info is under "Level Equivalent for Monsters and NPCs" on page 388 of the Core Rulebook.
Draining one of a monster's ability scores all the way to 0 is an "edge case." Monsters might take some ability damage, and might take some ability drain, but taking that much ability drain from PCs in one combat is unlikely to come up that often.