In my home game there’s an NPC who is an ally of the PCs. For plot reasons somewhere down the line he’s going to blame the PCs for keeping him from the mcguffin he wanted to help make him powerful. He blames the PCs and now will be looking for power in darker places.
Basically I was thinking of lichdom, but then it occurred to me that as DM I could explore other things. I am considering vampirism, lichdom, or half demon. Open to other ideas though.
Any other templates or ideas that could be fun for a caster whose compromised his soul for power?
Oohhh worm that walks
All of the above?
It depends on the nature of his madness. If he craves eternal life, any of the above can work, assuming his demonic side is strong enough to grant him the typical demon's lifespan. After that, it depends on his vanity; vampirism appeals to the vain, lichdom to the egotist. A worm that walks? More to the arrogant.
If you go with the idea of 'compromised his soul for power', then half-demon could work. Dealing with a powerful devil could also work; perhaps he gains his immortality via contract, but otherwise retains his current form and appearance. Leaves open the potential for all sorts of fun, because what's he supposed to give the devil in return, hmmm?
Devilbound for those that have made a Faustian deal. Soulbound shell for a construct version of lichdom. Psychic Lich is the psychic version
Worm that Walks and Lich are my favorites
The wizard was not originally supposed to be an adversary and is way overpowered for the PCs. I’d kind of like to incorporate something into this transformation that gives a compelling reason not to just outright murder the PCs. In the end they’re going to gain a mythic tier by “accident” that the wizard was actively trying to acquire for himself.
A Faustian contract of some kind that has a cleverly worded clause that prevents him from directly moving against the PCs could work.
Rough working idea:
1)Faustian bargain to gain the half fiend template. 2) Then later adding Lich.
Random disorganized thoughts:
- Engage the PCs as unwitting allies toward these goals.
- Faustian bargain has a clause about not directly moving against the PCs and the standard “we get your soul when you die” clause.
- the Lichdom (possibly vampirism if he needs an effective, but sloppy shortcut) is to avoid his inevitable fate of his soul in hell.
- then part of the reason he can’t devote more time to undermining the PCs is because he’s got hellish agents coming after him. Perhaps he can once again unwittingly engage the PCs to permanently take out his hellish “benefactor” to finally free him from the contract.
- I’ll need to build in some weaknesses for the PCs to exploit else he just becomes an overwhelming enemy.
Thoughts?
Here's a thought: The infernal contract is the phylactery. Then instead of fighting him, you can go through the devil first to get rid of the devilbound template and weaken him significantly.
Here's a thought: The infernal contract is the phylactery. Then instead of fighting him, you can go through the devil first to get rid of the devilbound template and weaken him significantly.
I like where your head is at.
What would be a good clause in the contract that screws over the caster in the end, as is tradition with infernal contracts? And/or would having a permanent fixture on the prime to facilitate the sowing of evil be sufficient for the devil to agree to the bargain?
I will add 'worm that walks' as an option.
in this case, it would be the result of a failed attempt at other power grabs. but he is already so evil and powerful, he can reject death through force of will and make the worms eating his flesh into his new body.
liches are usually too cautious and calculating for something that has gone off the rails like this. liches are all about caution and the realization that they cannot get power fast enough to overcome old age.
vampires are good for this though- if liches are the low hanging, rotten fruit of immortality, the vampires are the ones that fell on the ground and got trampled on. vampirism is the quick easy path for this, and you get what you pay for- they stay pretty, but they ave a dozen weaknesses including the major 'being outside during the day'.
demon are also appropriate for dark deals, but they seem too... positive- it is just an upgrade mostly, and it seems like it is too much of a success story for the power hungry. vampires have enough problems to send the theme 'this was a bad idea'. and worms that walk already has the prerequisite 'you failed horribly, and this is a consolation prize'.
Are worms that walk immortal? It doesn’t say so, but would kinda make sense as the body could constantly be replaced by additional vermin.
I think I’d like to reskin the worm that walks to use a different kind of vermin. Maybe beetles or spiders for the creep factor.
Additional thoughts:
- wizard has a powerful intelligent item in the form of a gauntlet. Could incorporate that somehow maybe.
- the mythic thing is direcelry related to a powerful Druid. If the wizard is destroyed by the Druid then coming back as a worm that walks could be very themantucally appropriate. Though mechanically I’m not a huge fan of the template the theme is great.
Can’t remember their CR offhand, but if it isn’t too under/overpowered for their level, the contract devil who the wizard signed with could show up as an enemy.
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Plot twist. He doesn't actually want the MacGuffin to make him powerful. The MacGuffin is an ancient artifact that was used to put an Elder Deep One to sleep for eons. The NPC is a Hybrid Deep One who is horrified by his heritage and is doing everything in his power to keep himself from turning into a Deep One. He also fears the Elder Deep One will wake up soon. He is convinced that he needs the MacGuffin so he can put the Elder Deep One back to sleep if it ever wakes Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Plot twist. He doesn't actually want the MacGuffin to make him powerful. The MacGuffin is an ancient artifact that was used to put an Elder Deep One to sleep for eons. The NPC is a Hybrid Deep One who is horrified by his heritage and is doing everything in his power to keep himself from turning into a Deep One. He also fears the Elder Deep One will wake up soon. He is convinced that he needs the MacGuffin so he can put the Elder Deep One back to sleep if it ever wakes Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Ooohhh. Cthulhu theme!
ALL OF THEMMMMMM
Demonic contract with some spider devil that transforms the wizard into a spider themed worm that walks. Spider shadow devil thing goodness.
Worm that Walks is a great template for combining with other templates. A lich made of graveworms is a neat idea, as is a half-fiend made of some kind of abyssal parasites.
To toss another idea into the mix, Nightmare Creature is a seriously nasty template that allows for a built in "it was all a dream" plot device, as well as subtle domination/manipulation.
Worm that Walks is a great template for combining with other templates. A lich made of graveworms is a neat idea, as is a half-fiend made of some kind of abyssal parasites.
To toss another idea into the mix, Nightmare Creature is a seriously nasty template that allows for a built in "it was all a dream" plot device, as well as subtle domination/manipulation.
I like that. Wizard dies in a mythic confluence. Spirit gets snagged and offered a deal. Takes the deal and rises as a devil bound worm that walks Lich made of The badass magic gauntlet he has as his Phylactry.
Worm that walks seems like overkill, but I love the sheer creepy ness of it.
Edit: on a related note I now really want to play this character in a pbp monster game.
A deal with a devil is definitely my favorite. The (intra-GM) RP interactions are nearly endless... now if only he could share his gift of insanity with some PC's... along with some skillful, multi-scenario manipulating.
I assume they’ll try divinations when they realize there’s an unseen enemy lurking. When they do I can offer glimpses of the past, but somehow identifying features are always covered in an unpierciable darkness.
That’ll be a lot of fun to RP.
Visions
- sad old partitioner man offered a deal
- demonic worms (or whatever) chewing on a corpse and multiplying
- the painfully and horrifically shoving life back into the now devoured corpse
- the terrifying swarm emerges from the grave soil and takes the rough form of a man
- then when I’m ready to divulge the identity of the enemy, they see those visions again, but with new details. Specifically the gauntlet moving like a severed hand to rejoin its master in death. The terrible power it allows.
Etc
Damn this is going to be fun to write.
Are worms that walk immortal? It doesn’t say so, but would kinda make sense as the body could constantly be replaced by additional vermin.
I think I’d like to reskin the worm that walks to use a different kind of vermin. Maybe beetles or spiders for the creep factor.
Well, i think that there might be an element of will- the mental focus to keep the various critters as a whole.
which could be played with thematically and as a story element. maybe he only has the ability to keep his soul from falling to pieces because of his single minded devotion to a goal.
this could be made into an addictive dependence. because what does he do once he has defeated the previous goal he might have shared with the party? (i am assuming he wanted the mcguffin to defeat some other big bad that the party has to kill)
he will need a new goal, or he will lose the focus needed to bind himself together.
maybe that new goal could be taking revenge on his former allies that fqiked to help him, who forced him down this dead end pat is this rational? no... but even if he knows that, he HAS to go with it, since he will just fall apart otherwise.
Edit: on a related note I now really want to play this character in a pbp monster game.
What's the final CR? I might consider DMing.
Rough working idea:
1)Faustian bargain to gain the half fiend template. 2) Then later adding Lich.Random disorganized thoughts:
- Engage the PCs as unwitting allies toward these goals.
- Faustian bargain has a clause about not directly moving against the PCs and the standard “we get your soul when you die” clause.
- the Lichdom (possibly vampirism if he needs an effective, but sloppy shortcut) is to avoid his inevitable fate of his soul in hell.
- then part of the reason he can’t devote more time to undermining the PCs is because he’s got hellish agents coming after him. Perhaps he can once again unwittingly engage the PCs to permanently take out his hellish “benefactor” to finally free him from the contract.- I’ll need to build in some weaknesses for the PCs to exploit else he just becomes an overwhelming enemy.
Thoughts?
Devilbound Template?
What's the final CR? I might consider DMing.
Edit: on a related note I now really want to play this character in a pbp monster game.
I legitimately have no idea. If you’re really interested I’ll modify to a CR you’re comfortable with for your game vs what I’m making.
Edit: currently he’s a half Elven wizard 14 and his gauntlet is an intelligent item that has a few things on it, but mostly it’s an @ will lesser wish item. I wanted to have a mechanical reason to cast whatever lower levels spells he might need at the moment. A couple of other powerful items too, but that’s the main thing. As an NPC he’s had effectively infinite wealth and time. He was originally designed as an ally to facilitate the initial plot and not as an enemy.
I assume all his original stuff plus these templates may be a bit much to DM as a PC. Again, if you’re really interested we can scale him whichever way you’d like.
Devilbound Template?Rough working idea:
1)Faustian bargain to gain the half fiend template. 2) Then later adding Lich.Random disorganized thoughts:
- Engage the PCs as unwitting allies toward these goals.
- Faustian bargain has a clause about not directly moving against the PCs and the standard “we get your soul when you die” clause.
- the Lichdom (possibly vampirism if he needs an effective, but sloppy shortcut) is to avoid his inevitable fate of his soul in hell.
- then part of the reason he can’t devote more time to undermining the PCs is because he’s got hellish agents coming after him. Perhaps he can once again unwittingly engage the PCs to permanently take out his hellish “benefactor” to finally free him from the contract.- I’ll need to build in some weaknesses for the PCs to exploit else he just becomes an overwhelming enemy.
Thoughts?
I think, Yes. I’m leaning toward the contract being his exploitable weakness. Not the paper specifically, but the bargain. Maybe the PCs get a copy or something. Before that though maybe they’ll be made an offer.
If you want infernal vermin for devilbound worms that walk, consider bringing in the hellwasp swarm.
That has some potential
If you want infernal vermin for devilbound worms that walk, consider bringing in the hellwasp swarm.That has some potential
Upon reflection: I think I’ll stick with vanilla worm that walks + Lich made out of grave worms.
Plus devil bound
What's the final CR? I might consider DMing.
Edit: on a related note I now really want to play this character in a pbp monster game.I legitimately have no idea. If you’re really interested I’ll modify to a CR you’re comfortable with for your game vs what I’m making.
Needs to be at least level eleven to be a lich, so the minimum CR is 16. That sounds plenty high, so let's stick with that. (It's more manageable a PC than a 16th level wizard, since you'd only have level six spells.) I imagine that the reason you want to play him is for the theme/personality, and you'd be cool with most rules, so I might make it a spheres of power game, but probably not. I'm fond of the system, but not as familiar with it.
I'm interested in DMing because I have a concept for a campaign kicking around my head where the PCs sold their souls to a devil and want to get them back, that doesn't really work at the lower levels, or for most parties.
The idea isn't terribly well fleshed out yet, since I didn't think I'd actually use it for anything. But if I decide to go for it (I think I'm more likely than not to do so, but it isn't a certainty) I'll get back to you on the story and rules and such, say, day after tomorrow?
What's the final CR? I might consider DMing.
Edit: on a related note I now really want to play this character in a pbp monster game.I legitimately have no idea. If you’re really interested I’ll modify to a CR you’re comfortable with for your game vs what I’m making.
Needs to be at least level eleven to be a lich, so the minimum CR is 16. That sounds plenty high, so let's stick with that. (It's more manageable a PC than a 16th level wizard, since you'd only have level six spells.) I imagine that the reason you want to play him is for the theme/personality, and you'd be cool with most rules, so I might make it a spheres of power game, but probably not. I'm fond of the system, but not as familiar with it.
I'm interested in DMing because I have a concept for a campaign kicking around my head where the PCs sold their souls to a devil and want to get them back, that doesn't really work at the lower levels, or for most parties.
The idea isn't terribly well fleshed out yet, since I didn't think I'd actually use it for anything. But if I decide to go for it (I think I'm more likely than not to do so, but it isn't a certainty) I'll get back to you on the story and rules and such, say, day after tomorrow?
Sounds great. Lich + worm that walks made of grave worms, plus whatever version of devil bound you want, correct?
Sounds great. Lich + worm that walks made of grave worms, plus whatever version of devil bound you want, correct?
Yup!
I also have a small list of banned spells, for higher level play. These spells are banned for PCs and NPCs alike; they just don't exist in the world. In no particular order, they are:
- Blood Money
Lesser Planar Binding
Planar Binding
Greater Planar Binding
Polymorph Any Object
Create Greater Demiplane
Emergency Force Sphere
Ethereal Jaunt
Etherealness
Lesser Simulacra
Simulacra
Greater Simulacra
Mass Suffocate
Time Stop
In addition, wish and miracle can only be used for the effects that are explicitly mentioned in their spell entry, except for wish, which can no longer give inherent bonuses to ability scores.
The "Persistent Spell" feat no longer exists. I see your frown, I feel your frown. I use the feat too. That's why I'm banning it.
I'm just trying to remove the death without a save spells, as well as making walls and non-magical monsters matter this late in the game, and I'm removing a few of the "I win and also I conquer the universe" options for wizards. :)
In addition, one of the rules will be that no one can have spells higher than sixth level at the start of the game. The reason for this is twofold, 1) it helps curb the flow of arcane insanity, and c) it guarantees that the scary lich who sold their soul for power is one of if not the most dangerous caster in the party.
That's all I got for special rules so far, is there anything you think needs saying? Also, is there anything in particular you want to see in the game?
Sounds great. Lich + worm that walks made of grave worms, plus whatever version of devil bound you want, correct?Yup!
I also have a small list of banned spells, for higher level play. These spells are banned for PCs and NPCs alike; they just don't exist in the world. In no particular order, they are:
Blood Money
Lesser Planar Binding
Planar Binding
Greater Planar Binding
Polymorph Any Object
Create Greater Demiplane
Emergency Force Sphere
Ethereal Jaunt
Etherealness
Lesser Simulacra
Simulacra
Greater Simulacra
Mass Suffocate
Time Stop
In addition, wish and miracle can only be used for the effects that are explicitly mentioned in their spell entry, except for wish, which can no longer give inherent bonuses to ability scores.The "Persistent Spell" feat no longer exists. I see your frown, I feel your frown. I use the feat too. That's why I'm banning it.
I'm just trying to remove the death without a save spells, as well as making walls and non-magical monsters matter this late in the game, and I'm removing a few of the "I win and also I conquer the universe" options for wizards. :)
In addition, one of the rules will be that no one can have spells higher than sixth level at the start of the game. The reason for this is twofold, 1) it helps curb the flow of arcane insanity, and c) it guarantees that the scary lich who sold their soul for power is one of if not the most dangerous caster in the party.
That's all I got for special rules so far, is there anything you think needs saying? Also, is there anything in particular you want to see in the game?
Can’t say I’m totallt happy with all of that, but I can work with it. I’ll let you know if I think of anything.
I'm just trying to remove the death without a save spells, as well as making walls and non-magical monsters matter this late in the game, and I'm removing a few of the "I win and also I conquer the universe" options for wizards. :)
Forgot about that. :)
Spell completion items such as scrolls take as long to activate as the spells casting time, with a minimum of a standard action. If you find a way to imitate the effects of a spell (such as through wish), said method takes as long to use as the spell's casting time.I feel kind of bad putting these limitations in place . . . I know that a lot of the fun in a high level campaign comes from casting high level spells. But these particular ones seem particularly difficult to balance, and I can't justify NPCs not using them too, if they exist.
I’ll definitely have to rework a few things, but I can make it happen.
I’ll have other questions, but I’ll wait for the official rules to see if they’re answered there.
Alright! Recruitment is open.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uuqo?CR-16-Monstrous-Campaign#1