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Mostly out of curiosity, where do you all stand when it comes to dipping class levels?
let's confine dips to be max 3 level per class; the highest level I would conceivably dip would be gunslinger 5 for the dex to damage with guns, but I'm not that big on gunslingers in the first place.
So, opinions on level dipping in general, between full-BAB, hybrid, and full casters? let's see who likes to mix things up and who are purists :)
Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.
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Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.
Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.
It really all depends on your build. I have an Archaeologist Bard character I recently remade that starts off as an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler. And I have a Hunter with a build that focuses on getting bonuses from flanking with her animal companion that just took a level in Unchained Rogue. And she will be taking 3 more levels of Rogue, but spaced out with more levels of Hunter to not delay the spell progression too much. Boon Companion will bump up the companion's level easy.
Absolutely dip for martials.Correct. Here's my response in a different thread:
I am creating a vital strike focused ranger character for PFS. The feats below are what I have planned through to 11th level. The 7th level character feat is still open. Any suggestions?
toughness
power attack
weapon focus greatsword
furious focus
iron will
vital strike
devastating strike
improved vital strike
improved critical greatsword<Vader> I find your lack of Extra Rage disturbing. </Vader>
Toughness? ...Rage gives you more hitpoints.
Iron Will? ...Rage gives you the same bonus to will saves.
Weapon Focus? ...Rage gives you a bigger bonus, with any melee weapon.
Furious Focus? ...Rage gives you a bonus to every attack.
Power Attack? ...Rage is superior until you're so pumped you almost never miss even with iteratives.If you are nearly 100% focused on delivering damage, then you might as well hit the nitrous out of the chute with a single dip out and save on several feats.
Assuming you have some clue how attrition works (and try to minimize getting hit while raging (e.g., emphasizing polearms instead of 5' weapons), a dip into a rage class is literally the equivalent of gaining the benefit of five feats with little drawback.
-- You dip a single angry-issues type at 1st, take Extra Rage, and you are done with that class. At 2nd, go Hunter or Swashbuckler or Rogue or Fighter or whatever other martial you want.
Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.
Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal. Ergo this still falls into the area of "damn near never."
Even were knack legal, there are very few abilities that are worth losing a cl for. A few hit points - pshaw. A feat - pshaw.
There are a few - paladin or monk, for things like +2 to all saves, AND hit points, AND other abilities; or when you specifically going for a gish build.
But generally, Wizards, arcanists, druids etc are top tier and dips represent a loss of potential.
Absolutely dip for martials.Correct.
PFS never plays to capstone, pathfinder almost never plays to capstone, so there is no real incentive not to multiclass.
Common dips:
Pal2: boosts to saves +++
Monk: Ditto; evasion
Swash Parry & Riposte, deeds, panache
Gunslinger: For a gun.
Barb Barbarian rage
Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal. Ergo this still falls into the area of "damn near never."Even were knack legal, there are very few abilities that are worth losing a cl for. A few hit points - pshaw. A feat - pshaw.
There are a few - paladin or monk, for things like +2 to all saves, AND hit points, AND other abilities; or when you specifically going for a gish build.
But generally, Wizards, arcanists, druids etc are top tier and dips represent a loss of potential.
Is that true? I thought the additional resources page for ultimate campaign lists out all the banned traits. I don't know the specific page numbers it references, but I don't see anything indicating it's banned.
I find dipping out is more helpful for divine full casters because they have fighting capabilities. Having the most current spells can be secondary as a priority for some builds if the spells are at least equal power.
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Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal.Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.
Magical knack is legal and has been for a while. It was originally illegal but a proposal was made and they legalized it.
But generally, Wizards, arcanists, druids etc are top tier and dips represent a loss of potential.
Is that always true? My daughter is currently playing a Catfolk Druid. She loves her companion, and has already taken the Boon Companion trait in preparation for taking a few level dip into Ranger - because she's been consistently fighting on the front lines for our party.
Is she going to be really crippling herself to do so?
to the OP, it largely depends on if you're wanting to hit things with a big stick or not and how high of levels you plan on reaching.
hitting things with a stick is easy to dip because lots of classes have something early to help them do that. But if things are going to get high levels it is good to stay single classes since lots of abilities scale and get better with levels, better than you can keep up with for dipping.
To me the real "Kings of dipping" are Id rager bloodrager, bloodrager(urban), savage technologist barbarian, and medium champion.
the id rager anger has rage for +6 str+4con+2will+power attack for -2 AC and -2 dex. Going dedication is good too.
Savage tech gets +4 str +4 dex +2 will while raging, that means it gains 2 AC instead of loses and it doesn't deal with sudden rage death.
Bloodrager normal or urban can pick up a familiar letting you get another +2 to a save in addition to your rage.
Plus all these rage options open's up furious for your weapon which is another free +1 basically to it.
all of these also just need an extra rage feat and you have enough for basically all fights every day (id anger gets power attack for free opening up the space for this feat)
medium just adds 3 damage with no accuracy loss and opens up a feat for +1 accuracy and damage, so it's like 1.5 feats in 1.
spiritualist is a great dip to quickly fix a will save, go dedication and keep the phantom in you and you get a good will save, iron will, and +4 against mind affecting, that's a +8 increase for most saves.
@AaronUnicorn On a nonrelated note, wild child brawler is a popular druid martial dip. Full companion progression, unarmed strike, martial flexibility, and flurry.
But generally, Wizards, arcanists, druids etc are top tier and dips represent a loss of potential.Is that always true? My daughter is currently playing a Catfolk Druid. She loves her companion, and has already taken the Boon Companion trait in preparation for taking a few level dip into Ranger - because she's been consistently fighting on the front lines for our party.
Is she going to be really crippling herself to do so?
"crippling" no, but making herself worse off, most likely.
so let say you're a lv6 druid using wildshape on the front lines and thinking of taking 4 levels of ranger instead of druid.
what you gain is +1 bab over the druid, but the druid could have had access to Greater Magic fang, so it's actually losing damage and accuracy. Then it does nothing for AC but pure druid would have barkskin giving more AC so you are losing out on AC. Then you had to burn a feat for boon companion and your companion isn't as good since you don't have as strong of buff spells for them like strongjaw, better barkskin, and greater magic fang. So that's a loss. And then as a ranger you pick up 1 favored enemy, so if you fight that enemy you're maybe slightly better, but overall your not. Then we factor in the loss of wildshape so that either a loss or more feats to cover that up for better forms and more uses for all day coverage.
So in the end you gain very little, far less than what you're losing for the dip. overall better to stay pure druid.
Its not *always* true; but I suspect it will be with a dip into ranger.
A 5 level dip in Ranger penalizes your will saves (and boosts the least important save reflex). It would give you 1 level ranger spells at the expense of +2 levels Druid spells
You gain 5 hp, +2 BAB (net), Endurance, a combat bonus feat, and 2 favored enemies. You lose a feat for boon companion.
You lose out of improved wildshape. So, overall you're trading spell progression, and wildshape for 5hp, +2 bab, endurance, and situational favored enemies.
Im in favor myself. I like to keep leveling up in game under the hood mechanically. We run APs at home that never go to 20, so capstones dont factor. My favorite dips are rogue, fighter, and monk.
In Serpent skull, I had a halfling rogue/barbarian/pathfinder delver.
In Jade regent, I had a human monk/cleric.
In the future, if I get to play war for the crown, im going Lion's blade (which ive wanted to try for a long time!) Not built out yet.
Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal. Ergo this still falls into the area of "damn near never."
Even were knack legal, there are very few abilities that are worth losing a cl for. A few hit points - pshaw. A feat - pshaw. ...
Magical Knack was illegal for awhile in PFS, but has been legal since spring 2013.
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Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal. Ergo this still falls into the area of "damn near never."Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.
Counter-Counter-Counterpoint: the vast majority of play is NOT PFS.
5 levels isn't a dip, gunslinger becomes your primary class. On the other hand you got the classic Trench Fighter archetype that gives bonus feats and dex to damage by 3rd level.
My favorite dips are Brawler, for brawlers flurry and martial versatility, and Swashbuckler, for opportune parry and riposte and swashbuckler's finesse. Paladins are also good dips with cha to saves and armor and weapon proficiencies but come with that heavy LG alignment cost.
The problem with multiclassing is that your character can outgrow your dip such as when a paladin multiclass never uses lay on hands because 1d6 health for a swift action becomes a waste of your action economy.
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Counter-Counter-Counterpoint: the vast majority of play is NOT PFS.Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal. Ergo this still falls into the area of "damn near never."Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.
Counter-Counter-Counter-Counterpoint: In your universe. In mine and a lot of peoples, it is. It is a YMMV kind of thing.
Counter-Counter-Counter-Counterpoint: In your universe. In mine and a lot of peoples, it is.Counter-Counter-Counterpoint: the vast majority of play is NOT PFS.Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal. Ergo this still falls into the area of "damn near never."Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.
C-C-C-C-Counterpoint: you and that "lot of people" are the minority
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C-C-C-C-Counterpoint: you and that "lot of people" are the minorityCounter-Counter-Counter-Counterpoint: In your universe. In mine and a lot of peoples, it is.Counter-Counter-Counterpoint: the vast majority of play is NOT PFS.Counter-Counterpoint: The vast majority of play is PFS; Knack is not PFS legal. Ergo this still falls into the area of "damn near never."Absolutely dip for martials. Damn near never dip for casters, at least not levels that give a cl loss.Counterpoint: Non-delayed full spellcasters (wizards, shamans, etc, but not Oracles/Sorcerors) can do just fine with Magical Knack and a 1 level dip in something else important for whatever build they make; they have the same spell level progression as a sorcerer at that point.
C-C-C-C-C-Counterpoint:
A) If it is a minority it is not an insignificant minority. i.e. not a vast minority like you claimed originally.B) I have traveled and played in 6 U.S. cities, so I have some experience. I know in some cities PFS is very big (running twice as many tables at the major conventions as Living Forgotten Realms in my former home city), and others, not so much. So I suspect your sample is one city where it is less popular and that is effecting your bias.
C)That said, you strike me as a person who, no matter what I evidence I present, you will tell me I am wrong. Therefore, arguing with you is a waste of time.
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C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! Y'all are using anecdotal evidence and nobody cares....
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C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! Y'all are using anecdotal evidence and nobody cares....
Oddly enough, I agree. What I thought would be one comment turned into a major thread derail that I didn't realize I was in until it was a derail.
My appologies.
Please ignore the thread derail this turned into, partially on my account.
As for level dips, I wish more classes encouraged it. I've had a lot of fun with them. My 2 handed fighter/Thug Rogue has a +33 Intimidate at 10th level and is a blast to play.
A lot of people on these forums will tell you all about how to dip (or not) to gain (or prevent the loss of) that extra .0001% more power/effectiveness from your character.
What I'll tell you instead is that it depends on if your character concept can be accomplished with a single class (or archetype) or not.
Many, many concepts can be accomplished with a single class, picking a specific archetype and judicious feat/skill selection. However, some just cannot be accomplished without multi-classing.
For example I wanted to use vortex spells with my Magus spell-strikes and the only way I could find to make that happen was to dip a level of Oracle (wind).
Whether that was because the combo I wanted doesn't exist in a Magus only build, or that my search-fu is just sub-par is another matter.
A lot of people on these forums will tell you all about how to dip (or not) to gain (or prevent the loss of) that extra .0001% more power/effectiveness from your character.
What I'll tell you instead is that it depends on if your character concept can be accomplished with a single class (or archetype) or not.
Many, many concepts can be accomplished with a single class, picking a specific archetype and judicious feat/skill selection. However, some just cannot be accomplished without multi-classing.
For example I wanted to use vortex spells with my Magus spell-strikes and the only way I could find to make that happen was to dip a level of Oracle (wind).
Whether that was because the combo I wanted doesn't exist in a Magus only build, or that my search-fu is just sub-par is another matter.
A bit tangential but your example doesn't work because you can only Spellstrike with spells from the Magus spell list. The general idea that dipping can be useful to evoke a character concept that is otherwise impossible is sound, though.
A bit tangential but your example doesn't work because you can only Spellstrike with spells from the Magus spell list. The general idea that dipping can be useful to evoke a character concept that is otherwise impossible is sound, though.A lot of people on these forums will tell you all about how to dip (or not) to gain (or prevent the loss of) that extra .0001% more power/effectiveness from your character.
What I'll tell you instead is that it depends on if your character concept can be accomplished with a single class (or archetype) or not.
Many, many concepts can be accomplished with a single class, picking a specific archetype and judicious feat/skill selection. However, some just cannot be accomplished without multi-classing.
For example I wanted to use vortex spells with my Magus spell-strikes and the only way I could find to make that happen was to dip a level of Oracle (wind).
Whether that was because the combo I wanted doesn't exist in a Magus only build, or that my search-fu is just sub-par is another matter.
vortex spells is an ability that lets you stagger an opponent if your spell crits. Since magus spell-strikes crit more often (via rapier crit range) it's a natural fit.
If it suits my character concept.....sure. No problem.