Hi there everyone,
I have a question I want to pose to the community (I’m sure it’s been asked many times before) about spells having “visual effects” when cast and spells that are active or ongoing.
Spellcraft allows a character to identify a spell being cast or to identify a spell they can see in effect before them, and this is where my question lies.
“Detect” spells in particular, produce a cone like “emination” that needs to be aimed at a particular area. To aim properly it needs to be seen, the edges and range to know you are casting it in the right spot. If someone saw someone with a “Detect” spell (Secret Doors, Undead, Evil, etc.) waving their hand (and moving this cone of magical energy) around they by the RAW are entitled to a Spellcraft roll, which implies it does have some sort of “visual” aspect that can be actively seen by anyone looking at it being used.
A spellcaster in my group argues this makes “Detect” spells useless if anyone can see them, arguing that spells (“Detect Thoughts” in particular) like this are pointless if anyone can see them as they are designed to be subtle.
“I would punch a mage in the face if they walked around shining a magical flashlight “Detect (whatever)” at me on the street” he says. He argues it makes the spells useless or pointless if they can be seen.
But due to the way Spellcraft works, it implies that a mage can identify magic that’s active in their line of sight, unlike someone subtly shapechanged via Alter Self, waving ones hands around directing a magical “Detect” spell should produce some kind of visual element in my opinion, not necessarily a flashlight perse but something that can be seen and thusly identified (otherwise there’s no way for the spellcaster to use Spellcraft if they can’t see what’s going on).
I want to know what people think. Please and thank you.
I don't think the cone itself is visible, but maybe the mage's eyes glimmer and shine or some other effect appears on the person who's casting. The caster would know where they're aiming the 'detect' spell because they're aiming it with their vision. The 'cone' is their field of vision (probably minus peripheral vision). The things they detect only appear to them.
I'd also houserule that lower level spells, especially 0 lvl spells have subtler visual effects, while high lvl spells have grandiose and spectacular effects that are hard to ignore.
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Spellcraft allows a character to identify a spell being cast or to identify a spell they can see in effect before them, and this is where my question lies.
Only half true.
You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, crafting magic items, and identifying spells as they are being cast. ... Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
When a spell is cast there are definitely visual manifestations that Spellcraft can consider. After that there's only what the spell describes; if you can figure out something about the spell, whether seeing/hearing/touching/tasting/smelling it or observing its effects indirectly, you can make a Knowledge(arcana) check---but you are not guaranteed to be able to see/hear/etc anything. For instance, casting invisibility causes glowy things in the air or whatever, but walking around invisibly does not.
So, if you want to cast charm person on the king, you'll be spotted since you have to do it in front of him, and this is the reason for the obvious-manifestations rule. But if you cast detect chocolate out of sight, then walk around the city looking at things, nobody can tell that you're using a spell, let alone a detect spell, let alone detect chocolate.
Interesting Question... Does a spell with Still Spell, or no somatic components, become incapable of being identified?
I should point out that in 3.5 Spellcraft was always able to identify spells active in an area of effect, and while I already pointed out that someone changed with Alter Self wouldn’t be a valid target since they aren’t glowing or anything, or someone who is invisible using Invisibility, etc.
In Pathfinder you need only look under Knowledge (Arcana) to identify a spell effect you didn’t see being cast. All they did was move the ability to another skill.
Task Knowledge Skill DC
Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
So someone walking in on someone casting say “Magic Circle Vs Evil” after it had been cast, as an ongoing effect could make this roll. But they could not versus a Invisibility spell and so on.
My point still stands. The spells have visual elements that can be seen. Any Pathfinder artwork showing magic use shows very graphically in the artwork that magic has visual aspects during and after casting in many cases.
@River of Sticks: No. It still has visual manifestations quite separate from its components. See the FAQ I linked to in my previous post in this thread.
Interesting Question... Does a spell with Still Spell, or no somatic components, become incapable of being identified?
No. All spells have some sort of visual effect when cast. Read the FAQ that Fuzzy linked above.
Identifying a spell as it is cast says you need to see the spell, not the spell components. A spell can have absolutely no components and still be identifiable.
AFAIK there are neither rules nor FAQ saying that all spells have visible components after casting, nor that imply it by saying that you are entitled to a Knowledge(arcana) check any time you walk by an area with a spell operating. You only get Knowledge checks to identify things you have first noticed, whether monsters or spells.
Artwork is not even remotely rules, so please don't cite it.
Well you are entitled to your opinions of course on the matter.
Nowhere does it say that spells DONT have a visual effect, and I specified spells like Alter Self, Invisibility and so on doesn’t cause you to glow and so on after it’s cast.
The skill check under Knowledge Aracana is open to interpretation of what it means.
The RAW under Knowledge Arcana states thusly.
Table: Knowledge Skill DC’s
Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
This doesn’t require the use of Detect Magic to find the spell first, merely to be aware of it, that means you can see it, hear it, etc.
-You can identify any ongoing spell effect (with exceptions like Invisibility and other effects you cannot see. But there is nothing here to say you cannot roll against someone who has Protection VS Evil cast on them or Bull Strength for example. If you didn’t see it getting cast according to this skill check you are entitled to the roll as per the rules as written.
The spells are seldom ever written in a way that describes it being cast, it’s just the facts compressed into its simplest game effects. It’s all down to interpretation and as such, looking at Knowledge Arcana anyone who walks in on active magic (with those noted exceptions such as Invisibility) would be able to tell. It’s like saying someone who has Mirror Image cast and you see the illusionary copies - but you didn’t see cast - wouldn’t in your interpretations be entitled to a roll here, when they very much can.
Spellcraft identifies spells AS they are being cast, Knowledge Arcana is for spells after the fact you never saw cast (with exceptions). If you can make a roll, you are able to observe it which means it has to have some kind of visual or audible stimuli to do so.
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"Identify a spell effect that is in place" is not "identify an emanation".
English isn't too precise, but the meaning of "in place" normally don't refer to something moving around.
Mostly it refer to spell that are placed on a location or have a fixed, stationary, area. As a GM you my rule differently but that is the basic meaning of that two worlds.
As a GM I could allow people to make a check if they are in the area of effect of a mobile spell that is affecting them (so, a evil being has a chance to notice that someone near him has an active magic circle against evil).
Note that a knowledge check is a knowledge check, not a reactive check like spellcraft. It don't require a specific action but it don't happen automatically when you encounter a spell.
If the character see a passerby and his eyes are gloving blue, he can ask "Why his eye are glowing blue?" and with successful knowledge arcana check know that "He has an active arcane sight spell."
But if someone he meet is under the effect of Endure elements but wear appropriate clothes for the environment, he don't get a free check.
He could get it if the other person is in a T-shirt and not bothered by falling snow.