I LOVE summoning. So I wanted to make a summoner that got rid of all those silly eidolon and spell casting bits in favor of MORE summoning.
What do you think? What's unbalanced? What's unclear? Is this a good class?
Have you looked at the Master Summoner archetype? It weakens your eidolon and makes your summoning better.
The problem most people have with summoning is that adding a ton of little creatures to keep track of can slow down the game and, if not properly prepared, can lead to lots of confusions. Other players generally get irritated if you are taking 2-10 turns for their one. But, that is all pretty player and group specific, so if its good with your group, then do it!
What do you love about summoning? What about the summoner isn't enough summoning for you? What would you like to see added or removed? This are the questions I would ask if thinking about this.
The archetype throws out too many top summons and they still have great casting. I like having summons and using them. I like the versatility summoning brings and how it lets you change your roles from combat to combat based on what's needed.
This class only summons but is effectively two top summons per round in effectiveness or one top summon and then a bunch of lower level summon spam.
I then added ways to make summoning more versatile than it already is.
The only compromise to summoning is the imbue ability which let's the character personally use summon monster abilities to keep her stats relevant.
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Aw, I see you. You want to drop casting and make the summoning the only thing the class does, maybe as supernatural ability?
You could start throwing in other conjuring magic fluff along the way too, to give the summoner a few other options.
I think this could work, but summoning is already a pretty powerful mechanic. Its versatility and action economy is already what makes it powerful, so you might have to be careful about expanding that.
I personally love summoning though, and I love classes that have supernatural abilities rather than magic (like the kineticist for example). I like this idea.
Are you commenting on the class I wrote or the intents I stated?
Oh, wow, haha I totally missed that you linked the class. My bad, I will read it later and get back to you.
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Alright Mr. H, I read a bit and have a few comments:
Does Augment Summoning talent stack with the feat? If not, have the talent explicitly state so or just have the talent award the feat. Same for Superior Summoning.
What are some spell effects that Enduring Aftermath would affect?
Do summons from Lesser Summons stack, or do previous dispel?
Mage's Acumen is super cool but seems out of fluff since you aren't a spell caster anymore. Maybe rename? Its a cool name though.
I'm a little unsure how Natural Summons works?
Versatile Tactics is super cool.
I am pretty impressed with your list of talents. I think they are pretty awesome and interesting, and most seem like viable choices that can allow a player to choose how to play. Nice work.
I think I might add a few more mechanics along the way that deal with the conjuration magic school. Conjuration includes calling, creation, healing, and teleportation. You might be able to include some minor creation/summon item ability. I think it would be thematic if you could also call beings you are aware of (teammates, maybe enemies, etc). And I think you could do some teleportation and planar transportation stuff. These could all be very limited uses per day, but would add some more out of combat utility and thematically strengthen the class I think.
I don't think this class is overpowered though. If anything its probably weaker than base Summoner but I am not sure. I would have to see what two top summons rocking in combat in combination with talents looks like, but I still doubt its worse than an eidolon being buffed by its summoner.
Alright Mr. H, I read a bit and have a few comments:
Does Augment Summoning talent stack with the feat? If not, have the talent explicitly state so or just have the talent award the feat. Same for Superior Summoning.
What are some spell effects that Enduring Aftermath would affect?
Do summons from Lesser Summons stack, or do previous dispel?
Mage's Acumen is super cool but seems out of fluff since you aren't a spell caster anymore. Maybe rename? Its a cool name though.
I'm a little unsure how Natural Summons works?
Versatile Tactics is super cool.
I am pretty impressed with your list of talents. I think they are pretty awesome and interesting, and most seem like viable choices that can allow a player to choose how to play. Nice work.
I think I might add a few more mechanics along the way that deal with the conjuration magic school. Conjuration includes calling, creation, healing, and teleportation. You might be able to include some minor creation/summon item ability. I think it would be thematic if you could also call beings you are aware of (teammates, maybe enemies, etc). And I think you could do some teleportation and planar transportation stuff. These could all be very limited uses per day, but would add some more out of combat utility and thematically strengthen the class I think.
I don't think this class is overpowered though. If anything its probably weaker than base Summoner but I am not sure. I would have to see what two top summons rocking in combat in combination with talents looks like, but I still doubt its worse than an eidolon being buffed by its summoner.
It does stack with the feat, but enhancement bonuses do not stack. So you can grab both at no benefit.
Brief summons last for a turn. Some demons can cast ice-wall. Normally that goes away with the summon. With this talent it last for the spell's duration instead.
The Brief summons ability has no stacking limitation beyond action economy. So lesser summons can stack.
Well, I do intend them to fill the spell caster role, they just only do it with summoning. But name suggestions? It's just a way to make your spellcasting summons more flexible.
Summon monster animals MUST have a fiendish or celestial template. This ability allows you not to do that. This is normally a weaker summon unless the enemy has magic circle or protection from X against your good/evil alignment.
Imbue and Unanchored Summons let you gain teleport and planeshift, but personal only. Talents like minor creation sound interesting.
Thanks for the input!
Interesting. I tried this with the Summoner 'specializing' in one type: Fey, Devils, etc., but our group banned Summoners due to abuse by a player so I never finished it. Yours looks interesting.
i also missed the link
i don't like the brief summon ability, the inability of the creatures summoned to take a full round action makes some summons useless, the fact they disappear after they take their action means it should not have such a low amount of times you can use it, it should be either a high amount of times per day or just flat out unlimited casting, other then that it looks pretty good
The talents Short Summon and Lesser Summon extend the duration of this ability.
With higher creatures and the Enduring Aftermath talent, I can't afford to make it unlimited without allowing someone to just spam SLAs and Spells of up to 7th level.
The ability used to be 2x level uses + Cha, but I cut down the use to cut back on Lesser Summon spam. I could boost it again if the class seems lacking.
you already have 2 pools for summoning, the talents would only apply to the longer lasting summons(as from what i understand about them) then you can afford unlimited brief summons and there would be no way to inherently boost their power thus making them a filler action foe when you don't want to use anything else or are out of actual summons i also find their capstone a bit lacking, advanced should come in earlier level 11 or 14 and then level 20 should apply dire
There is no general rule that the talents only effect the Summon Monster SLA. Both Short Summons and Lesser Summon explicitly state that they offer alternative ways to use brief summons.
The Summon Monster SLA is gated at one active use at a time like the base summoner class, so brief summons/short summons/lessor summons would normally come after that. The Imbue ability also give the summoner something else to do with her action than brief summons. But yes, it is meant to be filler.
I've found summons to be fairly strong at all but the highest level (19,20), so I'm hesitant to boost their raw smacking power any level sooner than that.
you mean you didnt carry over the master summoners ability to have multiple summons out for the sla at the same time? if the class is built around summons it makes no sense to not have that ability
I did not carry over that ability for being unbalanced. You can still summon hordes with Lesser Summons talent, but a small dungeon clearing army of minute per level summons is not happening.
I've played Master Summoners before. They are both far too strong and too exerting to run. The game can't really handle spamming top level spells very well.
I think you have thought this class through quite well and are very knowledgeable about it and summoning in general. It sounds you are well aware of how powerful summoning can be and are wary of it, which is good. I think the class looks ready for play testing. As Lady-J said, you might be able to increase uses per day of brief summons, but I would test what you have right now first. If it seems like you have a lot of "dead" rounds then you could add more, but as you noted you also have imbue. I dig the class, and I might use it in a campaign coming up soon. I hope you are okay with that. If I do, I will let you know how it goes!
As for Enduring Aftermath, I guess I assumed most spells ended when you died, but I guess their are lots that don't. Well designed!
Mage's Acumen (the name) works, I think. Now that I think about it, you are still a mage (just a very specialized one). But perhaps something like Summoner's Acumen? Summoner's Arcana?
I'm more than OK with that!
I like Summoner's Arcana. I think that fits better.
i am well aware of what a master summoner can do and anyone specializing in summoning needs the ability to have more then one summon out at a time as they just end up getting killed in 1 or 2 rounds
This class can be have more than one summon out at a time. So your criticisms are not clear to me.
MR. H. At this point someone usually points out that Lady-J plays very high powered games well outside the realm of the usual power expected.
The last throw away piece of information I heard about her point buy system was that it was 40 points or some such.
In her games it would make sense that the default summons only last a round when coming up against opponents balanced against her characters.
In a normal game a summon chosen for staying power should have no issue having some staying power.
Well, I would recommend leaning heavily on the Imbue ability for her games and take talents that better increase personal power while imbued. You can summon a Bard with heroism using Summoner's Arcana to grant yourself a +4 to-hit and a plus 2 to damage at level 11. Then imbue a shadow demon for pounce and touch attacks on top of lots of tankyness. A high point buy should make all of that go well.
I would also like to point out that the one or two rounds a summon is being destroyed in one of her games is one or two rounds a party member isn't.
I would like to think that a class that I make can handle such extreme cases as well as other PF classes.