Hi all,
I am trying to tie Against the Aeon Throne into a game, and I was hoping I could get more info about the Rune Drive from someone who has all three books. How does the Rune Drive work? Does it have limitations, costs?
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You make a great point that I hadn't really considered. I was worried about raw power based on CR but didn't think about the potential long term utility of power like at will teleportation. I considered doing an animal companion progression with shells of the given creature. But I wouldn't want all the creatures to have the same stats because that takes away from the cool and unique design of some creatures. It seems like it might end up being more difficult than powering down certain abilities of already made creature stat blocks. Any suggestions?
@Ciaran Barnes: Because I think that their are a lot of really cool, unique monsters in the game that I want to use as a PC. Hundreds of them are already made, ready to play. The vanilla animal companions are a little stale for me, and don't get cool monster abilities. The summoner handles this a bit but I want a more "natural" approach and flavor, without spellcasting. The focus of the class is the pets, and possibly fighting alongside them. I don't think taking the spells away was too much, as the character is overpower currently. Sure, they lose the flexibility and power of spells later on, but they gain another martial character with sometimes very cool special abilities and its own set of skills. @SilvercatMoonpaw: Thank you for the link, I will check it out!
Animal companions don't really mesh well with Bestiary stat blocks. I wish you luck. Neither do PC class levels either, from what I can tell. That's what makes this a more challenging problem than I expected :3
Hey all! I made a pretty simple archetype for ranger that loses its spells and a couple early things like first favored enemy in favor of gaining an animal companion from level 1. The real difference though is that the animal companion can be any creature "tamed" in the wild. I originally restricted this effect to creatures of CR equal or less to the class level, but quickly found that to be too strong. I am trying CR = level - 1 but I think that might be too much still. What is a balanced place to put the CR restriction? CR = Level - 2? CR = level/2? TLDR; what is a balanced CR per level for a spell-less ranger animal companion?
You just quoted Uncle Iroh while talking about potions in Pathfinder.. You sir have my vote. @Victor Crow: this is great, I am going to be using this from now on. Thank you!
I like this a lot! I am going to be running an exploration campaign soon too, I hope you don't mind if I use this! I think when I use it, I will put some distance limit on it (like 1 mile maybe) and it will detect the CR of nearest thing in that direction. I think this could be interesting as a sort of tracking tool, too, in essence. If the party finds enough clues or gathers enough info about something they are looking for specifically, they might be able to determine an average "danger" level of the target and then use this device to find it. Seems like a very fun plot tool and game mechanic. Nice work!
Simple, but good! The big and absolutely necessary (at minimum) change is making the wild shape last 2 hours per level. It is ridiculous that the Shifter gets less variety than a druid, no spells, and can only shape the same amount of time. Honestly, it should just be at will once you hit fourth level. Maybe even sooner. But this seems like a very easy compromise that most GM's would be cool with.
@Aeolus Wind King: I think you are right about the feat. I am going to think a little more on it but I think I will ultimately come to the same conclusion as you. I get what you are doing with shortening the checks. But, in my vision of the class, you still have your current companion with you while you are in the process of getting a new pact member. So you don't gain the immediate help of a new creature but you aren't gimped during that process; you still have all of your class features during the process. That said, I really do like the idea of being able to recruit an "animal guide" in an area. I am going to think about this more and see how I can incorporate it. I am considering changing the whole pact making process. I think I might have the Monstrous Empathy ability allow the beast heart to make a Handle Animal check to influence a creature's attitude, as per Diplomacy, but make a second check (18 + creatue's CR or something) to make the change in attitude permanent. Then, the Beast's Pact feature with include a spell against Will that, if successful, begins the pact making process. The process is not complete until you have used the Monstrous Empathy feature to make the creature Helpful towards you. Example: You find an Unfriendly creature (CR 4) and decide you want to make it a pact member. You want to use Monstrous Empathy to improve its attitude before you try beginning the pact process. It has a charisma of +1, so the DC to improve its attitude one step is 21. You roll a 26. You exceeded the check by 5, so it improves another step. The creature is now Friendly towards you. You make a second with a DC of 22 (18 + 4) to make the check permanent. You roll a 21. No penalty, but the creature's attitude will probably revert in about a day. You then want to begin the pact making process, so you cast the spell (Initiate Pact maybe?) and the creature fails the Will save. Now the creature will follow you around for the next seven days. The creature will become a pact member and companion after its attitude becomes helpful permanently. If you are unable to change its attitude to helpful within the week, the creature reverts to indifferent, flees, and is now immune to Initiate Pact. What this does is allows the beast heart to make permanent animal friends using Monstrous Empathy anywhere and everywhere he goes. However, making one into a companion is a much longer and more involved process. I am a little worried that the DC to influence attitudes of unhelpful or hostile creatures is far too high at level one to ever be achieved. I am not sure how to change this, unless I write my own DCs that are based more on the creatures. For example, maybe the DC is statically 15 + creature's hit dice + creature's wisdom modifier. Every step has this DC but exceeding by 5 or more increases by another step (10 would increase by two steps, etc). Thoughts?
Sorry, one more thought for all who care to read it. Because I have such a varied view of what the class should do, other than that I want it to be able to recruit a variety of companions, maybe I can write it as a feat chain instead? This would allow any class with an animal companion (or maybe any class? hmmm...) to recruit new beasts that they encounter, and keep a small group of companions (but still only one with them at a time). For example, a druid could take this feat chain to basically gain the Beast's Pact class feature. This would allow the player to be druid, a ranger, a hunter, etc. but still get the roaming beast empath idea. Thoughts? How might I format this feat chain? How many feats to make it completely functional? Is Beast's Pact too strong as a single feat?
@Aeolus Wind King: Thank you for thorough response! I think you have some good suggestions and cool ideas, though our vision of the class might be differing a little. Part of my problem, I think, is that I have a few different visions in my head too. Part of what I see is a character that is just very in tune and fascinated by creatures. No magic, just a guy who understands animals. The other vision I have is closer to a summoner or warg. I don't know if you are familiar with MTG and Garruk Wildspeaker, or with the Shadow of War LotR game. This characters have access to beastial magics. They can tame, dominate, summon, and emulate creatures to varying extents. For example, Garruk hunts down creatures and slays them. Once he does, he can now summon their power and visage to fight beside himself. Talion, the character from Shadow of War, can dominate and ride any creatures he comes across. Of course, there is Pokemon too, where you have made friends of creatures from all over and bring them with you to battle and adventure. I guess I was trying to accommodate all of these ideas. That is why I introduced the talent system. I wanted to leave the base class pretty sparse so that the player could create the character they wanted, thematically, through talent choices. Skills, Saves, Proficiencies I based these off of Ranger and Hunter, which I think are close comparisons both thematically and mechanically. I especially want to leave the skills, but that may be because I love skills. I could see reducing the martial proficiency, as this class is more focused on the creatures than fighting. Hmmm. You make a great point about using companions as meat shields (which I hadn't even considered). Maybe I should add something about that, some kind of penalty for losing a creature.
Your idea of having each creature stay in its territory is also very interesting. I will have to think on this a lot more too. My vision of the class was more an empath and collector, but your idea is very very thematic to a "friend of beasts" kind of character. I might move the Command and Dominate stuff to talents. Final Question I changed it to starting at 1st level companion and then scaling accordingly. Yes its a balancing attempt; the idea is to be able to get a creature at low levels and keep it with you, but make it relevant next to higher CR creatures. @All: now I am thinking I might change the talent stuff too. Instead, have a "talent package" chosen early on. Each package, lets call it Origin for now, represents what kind of beast heart you are and how you interact with beasts. This might be similar to a ranger's combat style or a cleric's domain. So you might be a more ranger-like character, and you are more based around fighting alongside your companion, tracking, guiding, etc. Or you might have a more druid-based Origin, allowing you to summon nature's ally and call on other beasts you have made a pact with. Etc.. I will have to think about it.
@Ciaran Barnes: Thank you for the responses!
@Oceanshieldwolf: Thanks for the input. I have in fact been considering cutting that ability or adding it as a talent option instead. Another option might be to say: At third level the beast heart gains Woodland Stride or... Scribe Scroll (insert better idea here)? Something along those lines. @all: I have been wanting to add the Summon Pactmate and maybe a few other talents back as actual class features but I am not sure. I am also struggling with the idea of recruiting a lower CR creature and somehow bringing it up to a more relevant level. Thoughts?
Also, I think their should be a way to get a lower CR creature and raise it up to your level, but I am not sure how to incorporate this. Should it just be a part of Beast's Pact, should it be its own class feature, or should it be a talent?
I hate when that happens! I am sorry to hear it. Yes, you are correct. The idea is to travel around finding new creatures and recruiting them. I suppose you could just have one or two exotic companions, but that would be missing out on the core idea of the class. I am glad to hear you enthusiasm :D I love the idea too and I very much want to make it into a working and balanced class. You are more than welcome to use it! I encourage it in fact, but I would love a report on how it goes if you do.
Hi all! I am building a class based on taming creatures in your world. I have posted here about this idea before, but I have almost completely redone it, and have a rough "first draft" ready to share. The class is mainly based around the Beast's Pact class feature which allows the beast heart to use diplomacy or intimidate to recruit creatures into companionship, and the Beast Heart Talent class feature which gives a big list of class features or feats that the beast heart can take every even level. Here is the class: Beast Heart And here is the (incomplete) talent list: Beast Heart Talent's Please feel free to give suggestions for more talents too! It is a big piece of the class! I want all the advice I can get! There is a lot in those two documents so I apologize, and thank those of you that take the time to read it. I fear the class is overpowered, but I am not sure. One of my considerations is to give fewer talents, but again I am unsure. I am also open to suggestions on "simplifying" (or more precisely, making more concise) the Beast's Pact companion recruiting system. I want it to be a series of checks, and I like that the first check considers many modifiers, but I realize it is currently convoluted. Any and all advice, please giveth!
Hi all! tldr: I want a very open, travel/exploration based medieval "frontier" kind of game. I want advice on how to capture that feeling, and on some mechanics like "fast-travelling" and resource gathering hooks. The Long of It: I am building a new campaign, with the feel of the campaign inspired by the Borderlands game series. The basic idea will be a wild, frontier-like setting with few scattered pockets of civilization and lots of land filled with bandits and monsters. The general plot hasn't been decided yet, exactly, but the general mechanics will revolve around the party exploring, searching out ancient portals that need to be activated, and gathering resources for personal gain and to activate the portals. The game will be very open. The players will map as they go, and each region will have its own specific terrain challenges and creatures. As they level and progress they will be required (or choose to) go back to same regions many times (each region will be rich in some particular resource) and the enemies will always be similar, but more powerful versions will emerge (Borderlands equivalent of "Bad Ass" and elemental forms, etc). Due to the open nature of the game, and encouragement for the players to travel a lot, I want to incorporate a travel mechanic (besides, but also including, the portals). I was thinking something like, per day of travel, they roll percent and the result determines if they are attacked. For example, less than 25% is no attack, 25-50% is a weak attack, 50-75% is a normal attack, 75-90% is hard, and 90-100% is epic. But perhaps I should make it one roll per week? Trying to think of a way to incorporate terrain challenges, maybe a second percent roll? Any other ideas here? And what about portal travel? Once they have some activated, should they just work, or should they need fuel/power each time? Can using them also be dangerous? Finally, I want some really good reasons to need to return to areas. Think resource gathering. But what resources? Why do they need them? Fueling the portals seems a good way. Personal gain, loot, experience, etc seems another obvious choice. Perhaps I will add a crafting system that requires resources? Thoughts? I want any thoughts and advice you have for this idea. Mainly, if you are a Borderlands fan, I want advice on how to capture that Borderlands feel and any ideas that come to mind. Note: this isn't a port of the game into Pathfinder, merely a Borderlands inspired campaign. So I want the general feel of Borderlands but I'm not worried about having guns or psychos or corporations or anything like that. Thanks in advance!
i think it should be its own class that way you can apply archetypes to it I like it as a new class, personally, but I think making it both ways is important. The standalone class is probably going to be little strong, and stray a little more from core Pathfinder. This makes a lot of GMs wary. The archetype version, however, will be very similar to Hunter and therefore might be easier for most GMs to allow.
A lot of great advice has been given here. I have recently begun creating my own worlds and campaigns, so I'm only a novice Worldbringer (so take my comments with a grain of salt). The first thing I do is ask my players questions like these: what do you expect from this game? Why are you playing the character you chose, and what do you want them to Do? Do you want a high or low fantasy game? High or low magic? Do you want political intrigue, mystery, horror, war? Do you want more civilazation or more wilderness? Etc etc.. then I begin crafting a world that uses these ideas as anchor points. Often times, in being asked these questions, the players themselves will give you great ideas. You mentioned plot hooks directly. The above information (and character background) Will help inform this too. But some more ideas to consider: do the characters know each other before or are they strangers? Do they come together through chance or through some greater power (a prophecy or divine calling perhaps)? Do they wake up in a dungeon somewhere, together, unsure of how they got there? Finally, how clear is the "main story" from level one? Do you set them upon their ultimate path immediately, or do you let them explore this new world for a while through random adventuring, while sprinkling in some hints toward the bigger picture? If you take the time to ask these questions and then consider the answers ( I would suggest writing them down) you might be surprised how quickly the world begins to build itself. Good luck and let us know how it goes! P.s. one Last thought: consider interesting regions/biomes/cities you might want, and think about what makes that particular area unique or prominent. Then, you can use the character of that region to inform what creatures and people populate it. Conversely, you can choose an interesting people or creatures that you want, and then build the region around them. For a simple example, I really wanted large lizardfolk in one of my games. Big, up 15 foot tall, long-lived, tribal lizardfolk. So I built a swampland that they make home in. Then I realized they were far too strong to be accessed by peasants so I created their swampy home as a large island off the coast. Then I realized sailors fear the area because of the mysterious reptilian creatures that, supposedly, come out of the fog and ocean to board, slaughter, and even sink ships. You see how the creatures inform the region, the region informs the creatures, and the world sort of generates itself. Cheers!
Do any of them have any influence on the sailing itself? You could have some encounter where they have to use skill checks, like going through rapids and/or taking boat damage, etc. If not, @djdust has suggested some great ideas for creatures to fight.
If it were an archetype I think it'd be better off based on hunter than ranger. Animal focus seems too apropos to pass up. Trading in the 6/9 spellcasting for pact creatures feels about right. I came to the same conclusion. I am working on a standalone class now that will feel more like its own creation, and then a hunter archetype. I will get them posted sometime next week. I might start a new thread then.
Creatures with Int > 2 will have a meaningful alignment. The DC should go up significantly for each axis (good/evil, law/chaos) on which the critter and ranger are opposed---or else it should just be impossible to make a pact with anything with an opposed alignment. Great point, hadn't thought of that. I will add this to the DC modifiers section. Nice catch, thank you!
I want them to keep their size and stats, that is why the class doesn't get much else. The class IS having these creatures and fighting alongside them. It might very well prove to be too strong, but I testing will see. In that case, I will just reduce the CR or I will limit abilities that the creatures have. I have some uncertainty with recruiting higher intelligence creatures myself, but I have taken it into account. The DC raises for every point of intelligence (making something like a dragon virtually impossible to recruit). But, it is an option. Furthermore, that is why I emphasize that this isn't a taming class (despite the name of the post). It makes a pact with the creature, a mutual agreement. It's less a master/servant relationship and more a fellowship. And technically, centaurs are monstrous humanoids, so you can't tame them. I might also have to make a few "you cannot tame this" exceptions.
Well Wild Empathy says it functions as a Diplomacy check. So, making it an actual Diplomacy (or Intimidate) check allows the player to scale it other ways, depending on how much they choose to focus on it (such as through ranks, traits and feats). I want them to be able to raise that check if they want to spend resources to do so. Bare minimum, if they put one rank in, they get a +4 +Cha bonus to it, and they can scale from there. Maybe I should drop Wild Empathy though, and replace it with something like "You can use Diplomacy and Intimidate on animals and magical beasts". Actually, I like that. It gives them more options than a standard Wild Empathy, making them better at it than, say, a druid. This also makes the Charm animal, even more redundant. In my newest version, I have moved Charm animal to a talents list, and I will change to this new version of Wild Empathy. I need a name, something similar maybe but not Wild Empathy, to avoid confusion. Suggestions?
I think you have thought this class through quite well and are very knowledgeable about it and summoning in general. It sounds you are well aware of how powerful summoning can be and are wary of it, which is good. I think the class looks ready for play testing. As Lady-J said, you might be able to increase uses per day of brief summons, but I would test what you have right now first. If it seems like you have a lot of "dead" rounds then you could add more, but as you noted you also have imbue. I dig the class, and I might use it in a campaign coming up soon. I hope you are okay with that. If I do, I will let you know how it goes! As for Enduring Aftermath, I guess I assumed most spells ended when you died, but I guess their are lots that don't. Well designed! Mage's Acumen (the name) works, I think. Now that I think about it, you are still a mage (just a very specialized one). But perhaps something like Summoner's Acumen? Summoner's Arcana?
As a general update, I decided to make this a ranger archetype, but also create a non-ranger based version of this class. The stand-alone class is going to have a pretty nice lift of heavy class features gained through Talents, to be taken at certain levels. Each talent is going to be at least as strong as a feat, if not stronger, and some are meant to be taken at each talent level to basically add a whole new core mechanic to the class (like wildshaping into creatures you have made a pact with). I will have the updates up once I finish finals. @ Lady-J: You make a good point, as does @Rogar Stonebrow. I changed it to class levels added to the check for Expert Handler. @Rogar Stonebrow: I like the sense animals. Maybe even as a supernatural ability similar to a detect magic. I'm sure there is a spell for that. I think I might add this to the talent list, rather than the core class. @avr: Beast Tamer doesn't quite fit the fluff I am going for. The class doesn't exactly "tame" the creatures, but earns their respect through leadership or fear. You make a good point about not finding creatures.. I am designing this specifically for a wild campaign so I didn't even think of that. I will think on that. At level up, gain a new creature from the animal companion list maybe? Half the fun of this class is tracking down and recruiting the beasts, I think, so I am wary of lessening that. @Ciaran Barnes: Thanks for the thorough response! And thank you, I value presentation lol. I wasn't coding in something like LaTeX, just formatted it in Word and then Google Docs. SKILLS: But Diplomacy is one of two main skills here. The class uses Diplomacy or Intimidate to interact with creatures, and then handle animal to give them commands once they are a companion. EXPERT HANDLER: You make some good points, as did others, and I changed the bonus. I will leave taking ten for now. The bonus is too low (in most cases) to auto-success checks at level one so I don't think it is game-breaking. However, to your other point, this class is heavily based on Charisma, so I would expect someone taking it to have at least a +1 modifier, but hopeful +2 or +3. TRACK: I agree with you, and my newest incarnation has replaced it with an ability called Beast Lore, which will given the class a bonus on certain skill checks (namely knowledge and survival) to identify, find rumors about, and track beasts. CHARM ANIMAL: I have honestly begun to feel similar. The main reason I added this in the first place was to give the class an in-combat ability against beasts. This is even more true of Command and Dominate. Also, as mentioned above, this class is expected to have a Cha mod. It would be like a monk with Wis or a paladin with Cha. They would be severely hindering themselves by not having a Cha bonus. That said, I will think on other ways to redesign the usages. BEAST'S PACT: I think maybe I didn't describe this well. @Lady-J has the right of it, this isn't trying to reinvent Animal Companions or allow more than one companion, specifically. They work just like animal companions once recruited, and you can only have one with you. But the point is to go and tame them in the first place, and it allows you to have all the awesome monstrous companions you could want. Any beast you come across can potentially be added to the team; this alone is the entire reason for making the class. I definitely need to rewrite it though, as it seems to confuse people. FERAL SPEECH: I think Feral Speech will stay, but the level it is awarded might change. This class's point is to understand animals more than they probably understand anything else, so I think being able to speak to them is very thematic. COMMAND/DOMINATE: As with Charm, this was meant for in combat use. In low-beast campaigns, this would probably just be a poor class to play. But in wilderness campaign or with a DM that likes monsters (like myself) this becomes really strong. That is the dilemma I am facing. Its really good when creatures are around, and its useless when they are not. What if I made the abilities only usable with a skill check? Maybe a contested roll, the beastmaster's diplomacy/intimidate vs the creatures Will save? This a bit unconventional, but it seems interesting. Or perhaps I can expand these Charm/Command/Dominate spells out to other targets? Start with animals, add magical beasts, add aberrations, add people, add dragons? Ultimately working like a Charm/Dominate Monster spell that can target anything? I considered this but it shifts the theme of the class, which I am not a fan of. @Lady-J: exactly! If you go tame a Tarrasque, you should be able to walk around with your colossal magical beast! The way I intended it was they use the stats you capture them at, and then gain the progression of an animal companion from there. If they have an advanced template or version later (such as a dire form) they can upgrade at the appropriate level.
The 1982 one?! I considered doing the favored enemy thing, just as you say. I might work it in still, especially if I make this into a ranger archetype instead. I thought about that too. You get the empathic link for your companions, but I think I will add a warg-like ability too. Mechanically, maybe I will make it so that the greater empathic link works on dominated creatures, so you can see through their eyes and control them. That's a very flavorful idea, I will see if I can make it fit. I haven't done anything with tricks or teamwork feats on this class yet, but I considered it. I didn't want to infringe into Hunter territory anymore than I already have though. Hmmm.
Alright Mr. H, I read a bit and have a few comments: Does Augment Summoning talent stack with the feat? If not, have the talent explicitly state so or just have the talent award the feat. Same for Superior Summoning. What are some spell effects that Enduring Aftermath would affect? Do summons from Lesser Summons stack, or do previous dispel? Mage's Acumen is super cool but seems out of fluff since you aren't a spell caster anymore. Maybe rename? Its a cool name though. I'm a little unsure how Natural Summons works? Versatile Tactics is super cool. I am pretty impressed with your list of talents. I think they are pretty awesome and interesting, and most seem like viable choices that can allow a player to choose how to play. Nice work. I think I might add a few more mechanics along the way that deal with the conjuration magic school. Conjuration includes calling, creation, healing, and teleportation. You might be able to include some minor creation/summon item ability. I think it would be thematic if you could also call beings you are aware of (teammates, maybe enemies, etc). And I think you could do some teleportation and planar transportation stuff. These could all be very limited uses per day, but would add some more out of combat utility and thematically strengthen the class I think. I don't think this class is overpowered though. If anything its probably weaker than base Summoner but I am not sure. I would have to see what two top summons rocking in combat in combination with talents looks like, but I still doubt its worse than an eidolon being buffed by its summoner.
Oh, wow, haha I totally missed that you linked the class. My bad, I will read it later and get back to you.
@Cyrad: Thanks! @Fuzzy-Wuzzy: Thank you, this is very informative. I will remove that section then. I will take a look, thank you for the recommendation. @Lunaramblings: As far as I know, the Handle Animal skill can't be used to tame or control wild animals, right? As far as Diplomacy vs Intimidate, I really like the distinction. I need to tweak and streamline how it works still for sure, but I think I will keep this. It would probably be much simpler if I changed everything to Handle Animal, but it feels wrong to pile so much mechanically onto a single skill. Wild Empathy allows you to use Diplomacy on creatures to sooth them. For this class, this would rarely be used in combat and is more a social or random exploration mechanic. The Charm/Command/Dominate Animals abilities are limited in there uses, and are primarily built for combat. I definitely see the redundancy, but I think its a healthy and thematic redundancy. This class's whole idea is to be the best at handling animals. As for "having a TON of animals" I'm not sure I follow. The class can usually only have one companion with them, and then could charm/command/dominate creatures they came across in combat. But a druid could do nearly the same thing, so I don't think its unreasonable. Can you elaborate? I have looked at the archetypes and at third party classes, but I haven't looked at the Beast Heart Adept. I will check it out, thank you!
Aw, I see you. You want to drop casting and make the summoning the only thing the class does, maybe as supernatural ability? You could start throwing in other conjuring magic fluff along the way too, to give the summoner a few other options. I think this could work, but summoning is already a pretty powerful mechanic. Its versatility and action economy is already what makes it powerful, so you might have to be careful about expanding that. I personally love summoning though, and I love classes that have supernatural abilities rather than magic (like the kineticist for example). I like this idea.
Have you looked at the Master Summoner archetype? It weakens your eidolon and makes your summoning better. The problem most people have with summoning is that adding a ton of little creatures to keep track of can slow down the game and, if not properly prepared, can lead to lots of confusions. Other players generally get irritated if you are taking 2-10 turns for their one. But, that is all pretty player and group specific, so if its good with your group, then do it! What do you love about summoning? What about the summoner isn't enough summoning for you? What would you like to see added or removed? This are the questions I would ask if thinking about this.
Phew, I thought no one was going to reply! @Fuzzy-Wuzzy: Yup, that's why I asked for a new name! I hit a creative block on that one. I didn't realize Handle Animal was an impactful enough skill to make Expert Handler so strong. I figured if this class's whole shtick was befriending and taming animals, they should be the best at it. I will think of ways to accomplish this differently though. Charm Animal, how did I miss that? I sware I thought I searched for it. Nice catch, thank you. Good point for Predator's Pact. I will rename and fluff. Intimidate is made to allow for more options (such as an evil character). Have you seen How to Train Your Dragon II? The main villain intimidates the dragons into serving him, and in general the wild tends to be "ruled" by the fiercest creatures so I figured it fit rather well thematically. I thought about adding Handle Animal to the choice of skill checks, but I decided Handle Animal seems to be how well you train and command the animal, rather than persuading it to fight as your companion. Mechanically, I didn't want to pile so much focus onto a single skill. I might still be persuaded to change my mind here though. Maybe I am misinformed on how animal companions work normally, but don't you have to use Handle Animal to give them an order? What do they do if you do not give them a command? What I meant by "can think and act without command" is it will attack or retreat of its own accord if not expressly told otherwise. If animal companions can do this already, then I will remove that line. Either way, I should probably reword it. Thank you for the feedback! @Cyrad: You are right, it still needs some fleshing out. That's why I am here! Can you be more specific on what is needlessly complicated and what is vague? As I replied to Fuzzy-Wuzzy, that line is apparently written poorly (and might come from my lack of knowledge) but was meant to convey that a pact creature will attack or retreat of its own volition rather than having to be told to do so (to show that this is still a wild creature, not one raised from birth or domesticated). Rewriting from scratch is an option, but I don't know which flaws you think require rewriting so I'm not sure how much better it would be. I was thinking of being able to change companions in a much more flexible way than, say, a druid. But I wasn't going to make a class feature that is quite pokemon level, carrying around multiple companions to change on the fly. I add the ability to summon one companion later, and that's basically the extent of it. You are right though, it is not overly "interesting" but it is something I have wanted to play for a long time. It is heavily based off of ranger for the sake of balancing, so maybe I should just make it a ranger archetype rather than a new class. Thank you for the feedback!
Yeah, that could be a good solution for dipping. It would be nice to wildshape from level one. I agree, the shifter should be the best shapeshifter around. I would have to play with the numbers and play test some to see how it really handles, but it seems to me that getting all those forms so far ahead of when they are normally available is dangerous. Getting them at will is already really strong. That alone makes you the best shapeshifter. I like adding some other bonuses, like Morphic Armaments, to make the forms feel a bit more unique and to make a shifter form at 4th level stronger than a similar druid form at 4th. I plan to use this in some upcoming campaigns, so I will have to see how it compares.
Ryuujin-sama, I like a lot of what you did here. For example, I like the bonus monster feats, and meld armor (as an alternative/compliment to defensive instinct) I like the morhpic healing, I thought about adding that too but was worried about adding too much. I would be wary of giving always on fast healing. Kind of entirely negates the need to heal, ever. The party might have to use potions and wands, or rest a few days, but you are ready to go after just an hour. I might make it usable some minutes per day. However, I think this is severely overpowered. At will shapeshifting from level one makes this an almost must dip class for ANY character. Then giving it access to all the forms 2 levels ahead of druid (and therefore 3 full levels ahead of the rest of the world) AT WILL is insane. Full casters like Wizards get crazy at high levels because of spells like Form of the Dragon (even if its one of the lesser offenders) and you give it here, at will, a full 3 levels before the wizard gets it once. I'm not a fan of the manipulate nature ability, I don't think its thematic and it seems a lot like having your cake and eating it to. However, you seem to like it so more power to you. Finally, Chimeric form seems pretty insane at 9th level. If I am understanding your intentions correctly, you can be combining huge magical beasts, large elementals, and medium dragons. That, at level 9, gives me nightmares. It gets even crazier a level later, adding huge elementals and large dragons to the options. I used this ability as my capstone in my version of the class. I could see getting lesser versions of this early on, but getting a full two creature fusion (of creatures 3 levels ahead of when they are supposed to be available) at 9th seems blatantly overpowered. I like what you are doing though, and if you are playing with a bunch of high powered people this would definitely be fun.
You make good points. And I tend to agree with all of them, but I based it heavily off of the official shifter class. I figure the closer to that it stays, the more likely DMs will be willing to use it. I personally don't like it being directly related to the druid, but I read some people describing it as the cleric/paladin relationship which I guess I can appreciate. Even still, I might be persuaded to change it to Con based. I'm worried that the large amount of variety it has might already make it significantly outshine other martials, but I would have to play it more to see. Making it MAD is a poor way of balancing it anyway.
Hey all! I gave a go at my take on a "fixed shifter". I have posted this up a few times already so I apologize if you saw it somewhere else. I am pretty sure I took some ideas from this post, and I directly took some ideas and a few names from another post on here. Anyway, I am most worried about the Evolution Points, if they should be there at all, and if they should be completely mutable or should be assigned at the beginning of the day. Give me lots of feedback, please!
I'm blanket posting this so I apologize to those that see it repeated. I wrote up what I might want for a "fixed shifter". It uses ideas from all over this board. I am most worried about the Evolution Points, if they should be there at all, and if they should be completely mutable or should be assigned at the beginning of the day. Give me lots of feedback, please!
Alright, I wrote up what I would want from the Shifter class. I used a number of ideas from this post (including some names). I have it written up in a Google doc. Take a look and tell me what you guys think. I would like this to be reasonably power balanced because I really want to play it. My biggest worry is probably the evolution pool, but I'm sure there are many other issues. Feedback is wanted!
I haven't thoroughly looked through this class. But, if its using the same evolution and evolution pool as original summoner, you can pretty easily abuse lots of natural attacks. And early pounce. But that is no more broken than Summoner, so. I have wanted to make this (based off of synthesist) for a long time.
This reminds me of Deadman Wonderland. Is that the inspiration? Also, their is a 3rd Party Kineticist element: viscera. They use flesh and blood and bone. You might find some inspiration there. I think it is Kineticists of Porphyra, Vol. 1. Plus, kineticists already use their HP as a resource, so this could easily be a Kineticist archetype. The other two make a good point, but you only gave us a brief idea concept, so you might have a robust enough idea to create a whole class.
I like what you have going here! For Mutable Appearance, you should make it work as a polymorph ability rather than an illusion. It should not allow the Shapesmith to change his clothing, but his appearance changes are actually physical. For Morphic Armory, I love getting options outside of just claws. Why not add some more? Slams, tail attacks? I have read some concern with stacking natural attacks. A simple (if a little crude) solution might be to cap the number of natural attacks per level (maybe follow the eidolon page, starting with 3 natural attacks at 1st?). That way, someone could play, say, a Skinchanger (getting two claws) and take gore as a Shapesmith. But if he got any other natural attacks somehow, he would have to choose which three. As for fluid form, I love that we get it before druids 4th level wildshape. But I do understand other people's concern about the at will versatility. I propose taking a little nudge from Shifter, and saying you get one form you can shift to at will, and then get Wildshape a certain number of times per day. I would probably give your chosen form at will at 2nd level, and then begin normal wildshape progression at 4th? But I do like having it before druids, so maybe still 3rd. Tough call. I really like the evolution pool. I am a big fan of this. Really feels like a master of shifting. Do you intend them to be always on, or can the shifter turn them on and off? Why take away the evolutions when you transform? Power issues I suppose.. would take some testing but I would prefer being able to apply the evolutions in any form. I might drop morphic immunity. At the very least, slow it down (smaller percentage chunks spread over more levels). Morphic movement is a good idea, but seems a little.. redundant at 14th? You can get movements from all sorts of other forms. But I do like this, it might be more relevant if it had a little longer duration. Maybe an hour per wisdom mod, in one minute increments? In "day to day" use its nearly limitless, but if you try sitting on a wall all day it wont work. Some of the latest level abilities I'm not sure about. Force shift is a fun idea, but it feels incongruous. Comes out of nowhere. I think you could add weaker polymorph other abilities earlier, and it would make this later ability fit better. Morphic body, take it or leave it. You can get that from evolutions I think. I would drop morphic mind. Replace it with something about fort saves instead maybe, or nothing. I like the capstone! With my earlier suggestion of uses per day wildshape, you could add at will wildshaping to the capstone. Nice work! I might high jack some of your ideas for my own build!
Hi all! I threw together a class, roughly based off of ranger, that is based on befriending in-game creatures and then using them as companions. I added a few things that I thought were thematic, like charming, commanding, and dominating animals as you level. I am afraid its too strong. And I am sure there is lots of issues with using CR = class level companions. I think its a little bloated early and little sparse later but I'm not sure honestly. I am looking for critique on what I have made, suggestions for additions or removals, and anything else you care to add or postulate. Oh, and I need a better name! Thank you in advance!
So, I would like to get this post noticed again. Now that I have seen the Ultimate Wilderness Shifter class... I am horribly disappointed. To the point of anger, honestly. Back to homebrew! I would love more thoughts of the above ideas I posted. Thanks!
Thanks for the heads up Marc, I will look into it!
You.... you do know that Ultimate Wilderness is coming out next month with the Shifter class, right? There's almost certainly going to be an archetype that focuses on changing into one particular animal included if that's something core to what you want. I actually did not! I heard rumors a while back but I didn't know that they were making an official Shifter class. Finally! It has always amazed me that one didn't already exist. Thanks for the tip!
Hey Aaron, thanks for the thorough reply. It sounds like we are of a similar mindset on this. A lot of what you proposed is exactly what I was envisioning. ONE: I am definitely leaning toward a progression system in the changed form. I think it will better allow players to choose the creature they want to shape into, without worrying about which form is "stronger". As you made a point of, it also will make the class feel more unique with respect to other shifters already in the game. TWO: I am considering if the humanoid form and animal form should have different BAB and HD. Perhaps the form has HD 10 and full BAB, but the humanoid form is d6/d8 with 3/4 BAB. I haven't thought about it enough though, and that might be unnecessary book keeping. I don't want to overshadow the likes of Fighter/Ranger. I like the idea of Ranger/Paladin spell progression, with its own list and spontaneous, as you suggest. I even considered 6th level casting but with a limited spell list / spells per day. But I think I favor your idea, giving more advanced spellcasting to some of the Origins. So perhaps 4th level casting by default, but some Origins alter to it to 6th (and maybe some get rid of it entirely?). THREE: I am glad you like the idea. I was pretty excited about it. I like the suggestions you make. Building on them a bit, maybe Draconic gets that aforementioned bump to 6th level casting (and might be able to pull a bit from the Sorcerer list?) while the cursed/blessed loses spellcasting but gets increased HD, or maybe an extra attack + multiattack, or some other martially bent advantage. I could see an origin that had a focus on Summon Nature's Ally too. "Nature's Herald" or something. FOUR: This is a great idea. I had considered the alignment restrictions but not the Druid ones. I will think on that. I am not sure I want to restrict the class to not using weapons, but that might actually be quite thematic and solves the problem well. What do you think of the Will save? It started as a way to "punish" the ability early but now I think it might be interesting. *BONUS: I intend to add Alter Self pretty early on. What do you think about when I should introduce it, and how often it can be used? I was thinking maybe as early as 2nd level, once per day.
Warning: Long post incoming. (A tldr is at the bottom). Hello all. I come to you in hopes of a healthy conversation about creating a class revolved around shapeshifting. I am in the early stages of its creation and would have love it to be an involved process with any of you that are interested. However, if anyone feels like this all can be reasonably accomplished through existing material, I would love to hear those ideas as well. PREAMBLE (skip to "CONCEPT" if you don't care about my background/motivation): I am a huge fan of shapeshifting, always have been. Druids are awesome for it, but I have always wanted a class revolved purely around shapeshifting. I have come across some 3rd party stuff and some archetypes that get close, but I have some specific concepts in mind and I think they might warrant a new class. CONCEPT: I want to build a martial focused shapeshifting class, who gets a single chosen form at level one, allowing them to swap between this animal form and their humanoid form at will. Imagine an animorph, or animagus from Harry Potter, or Haku from Spirited away, etc. I think their primary means of combat will come from being in the form. I haven't decided if they should get weak spell casting or not. As it progresses, it will unlock more shapeshifting and other abilities based on Origin (see point "THREE" below). I am bringing together the skeleton of the class currently but I wanted to start this discussion ASAP. Four things I am currently looking at (number "FOUR" being the most important). ONE: Should the main form follow regular wild shape rules, or should it be more like D&D shapechanging (gaining physical stats, keeping mental), or should it be some kind of set progression regardless of form (like an animal companion or eidolon)? I tend to lean towards the third option, but I would love to hear thoughts. TWO: What HD and BAB do I give the class? THREE: I created this concept of Origin. Upon taking the first level in Shapeshifter, the player must select an Origin that defines how they obtained their abilities and how the will grow. A few examples: Fey/Changeling/Draconic Ancestry (the ability is in their blood), Spirit Touched (they are a spirit guardian of a forest, or transform into their spirit animal, etc), and Cursed/Blessed Beast (they player was once an animal, but has been blessed/cursed into greater intelligence and a humanoid form). Then, at certain levels throughout their progression (the same for all Shapeshifters) they will gain some new abilities based on their Origin. This is mechanically similar to a Cleric domain or the like. ***FOUR: Concerns with a one level dip in this class being absurdly strong. This is the one I want the most help with currently. I am trying to come up with a way to give the class its chosen form at level one, without letting a class (lets say Rogue) take one level dip (choosing rat/owl) and become the greatest scout ever. Way too much utility there for a single dip. I have thought of time duration and the like, but if possible I would really like the class to be able to transform to their chosen form at will. One possible solution (and potentially interesting mechanic) I came up with was: "Whenever transforming into the chosen form, the player must make a Will save or succumb to a more bestial nature. The player is still in partial control of themselves, but their thought process and desires are more governed by the animal they have become than by their previous humanoid self. The extent of this can be decided by the player and DM. *Example: A human shapeshifter has chosen hawk form, deciding he wants to be a scout. At some point, the party wants to see what is over some low rolling hills but doesn't want to be spotted. The shapeshifter transforms into his form (hawk), intent on flying over the hills to scout. However, he fails his Will save. Now, he remembers that he has a human form, and a party, but right now all he cares about is finding a large rat or rabbit and sinking his talons into it.* The shapeshifter can attempt the Will save again if/when/after *insert stipulation here*." I think this is a cool idea to be explored more. The DC could decrease with levels in the class (making it much more of a gamble for a single level dip) or the Will save retry could become more frequent with levels (again discouraging a single level dip). I am open to any suggestions though, as I could see this being potentially frustrating (though potentially very fun as well). Thoughts? Sorry for the long post. Thanks for sticking with me through it. Here is a summary: TLDR: I want a shapeshifting focused class, primarily based around changing into one single form. Ideally, changing to and from will be at will. The class will gain more thematically appropriate shapeshifting skills as it progresses. A concept of Origin might be introduced, detailing how the character got his powers and how they will manifest as he grows (see point "THREE" above). My main concern currently is that a one level dip to get an alternate form at will is absurdly strong (i.e. a rogue transforming into a rat at will with only a one level dip). I would like advice on how to combat this issue, adding some drawbacks or shortcomings of the ability early on. I proposed a potential solution, involving a Will save to stay on task while in animal form, that gets easier to beat/manage as you progress. Thoughts?
Hey all, wasn't sure if this was best in General Discussion or Advice so I apologize if I got it wrong. I am totally hyped up on Starfinder currently, but I don't get much time to play and I don't have a play group at the moment. To get a kind of fix, I am hoping to listen to a good sci fi book. A lot of sci fi books lean heavily towards gritty story with grim worlds. I am looking for books that have more in common with Starfinder. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks all! tldr; I want some good sci fi fantasy novels that feel like Starfinder, all recommendations welcome.
You make a solid point Lost in Limbo. It is a Core Rulebook. I guess I am just super eager, and I have never been involved in the release of a Core before so I take for granted all the material available for something like PF. Thanks for that info jack ferencz. So, from what I can tell, Pact Worlds won't be released for another year. I guess its the two archetypes they gave us, or homebrew until then?
Are there really only TWO archetypes?? Or am I missing something? I like the concept here, that any class can take an archetype as on overlay for whatever class they chose. I think in combination with themes and the inherent options provided in each class, this really lets any character feel truly unique. But, they only gave us two?? Does anyone know if/when more will be released? Or perhaps a system for creating our own?
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