| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Includes Melee and Ranged Weapons except for thrown/bows, grenades and missile launchers. Also Solarion weapons/crystals have not been added yet.
This version of the sheet creates a DPR table with the dice roll you need to hit something. It highlights the results you need to hit a Combatant Array NPC at CR-2, CR and CR+2. This should help home in on DPR numbers that would show up in actual play.
It also computes what a combatant NPC would need to hit PC Armor seems paper thin. It keeps NPCs from going to town for multi-attack but resists and, to a less extent, forcefields are going to be a big deal.
This new data has caused me to change my recommendations for what type of weapons 3/4 BaB classes should use.
Basically, unless you have a class feature that requires a move action, you should go longarm.
ExoMechs, should use their built in Longarms Prof and save two feats.
DroneMechs, should go Sniper Rifle.
Envoy, should go Sniper Rifle.
Operative, should go with either Small Arms or Sniper Rifle, both of which are class feats.
Mystic should go Longarm.
Shooting Technomaner: Sniper Rifle
I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is a blasting technomaner build that uses a Witchwyrd, Harmfull Spells and a lot of magic missiles.
I'm going to dig through the data later, so ignore this if it's obviously answered in the doc, but I'm curious...
Why go with the Sniper rifle over the longarm for the shooting technomancer? I've only looked at the charts in the CRB so far (my Alien Archive is still in shipping), but I remember thinking that the damage wasn't that much higher to warrant the loss of the chance at a full attack. Are they that rarely possible to pull off with the technomancer?
I mean, if we're talking a small DPR hit, I'd probably still want the option.
I'm going to dig through the data later, so ignore this if it's obviously answered in the doc, but I'm curious...
Why go with the Sniper rifle over the longarm for the shooting technomancer? I've only looked at the charts in the CRB so far (my Alien Archive is still in shipping), but I remember thinking that the damage wasn't that much higher to warrant the loss of the chance at a full attack. Are they that rarely possible to pull off with the technomancer?
I mean, if we're talking a small DPR hit, I'd probably still want the option.
Level 5 Laser Rifle (Level 6) Weapon against a CR+2 foe (Dex Bonus 4):
Base Roll To Hit: 12
Standard Attack DPR: 6
Full Attack DPR: 7.2
Laser Sniper Rifle (Level 5), same scenario
Base Roll To Hit: 12
Standard Attack DPR: 7
If the AC goes up by 1 for any reason, the Sniper Rifle outperforms full attacking.
Just cast magic missile (3): DPR 10.5 or 12.5 with harmful spell.
At level 10 (Dex +5)
Level 9 Laser Rifle
Base Roll To Hit 14
DPR Standard Attack: 8.2
DPR Full Attack: 8.2
Laser Sniper Rifle
Base Roll to Hit: 14
DPR: 11.2
Just Cast Magic Missile (3): DPR 10.5 or DPR 15.5 with harmfull spell.
Blow a second level spell slot on empower spell and that level 10 sniper rifle attack goes to 21 DPR.
So basically, in certain situations, especially at higher levels, Sniper Rifle does more damage than a longarm.
You could still argue that the longarm is the better weapon as it does more damage to less opponents, and you probably want to be casting against the big bads.
Better than spending extra feats to get sniper weapons on a technomancer, use the spell hack to make a sniper weapon. Cost a spell slot, but no need to burn longarm proficiency to get to sniper weapons. Just stick with longarm feats and make a sniper rifle when needed or heavy weapon is we are wanting raw damage output.
Thanks for the run down. My Alien Archive is in shipping and I just got the first AP, so I haven't had a chance to dig into the AC numbers of opponents yet (just the damage amounts for sniper rifles v long rifles in the CRB). I haven't even seen the laser sniper rifle (unless I just missed it). That 1 point of average damage or 2 points of max damage between similar level rifles and snipers in the CRB didn't seem worth the loss of options.
It sounds like what you're saying is that if you have to deal with a lot of mooks, long rifle is better, but if you fight single higher CR encounters more, the sniper rifle is better (for the lazer wizard technomancer, anyway).
Thanks for the clarification.
Sniper proficiency doesn't require longarm proficiency. You can take it on it's own. However, I'd like to note that you are not always going to be fighting enemies that are cr+2. When fighting a large number of mooks the long arm should outperform the sniper by quite a bit.
Hum against a CR foe.
Sniper Rifle an Empower Weapon with a 2nd level spell does DPR of 16.8 at level 5.
Without the bonus from Empower weapon it does only 8.4.
Laser rifle in the same situation does 9.6 DPR on a full attack.
And with use of a spell on a single attack a laser rifle does 15.2 DPR.
Just casting magic missile does 12.5 max.
So it seems like Sniper Rifle + Empower Weapon is good when dealing encounters that include a limited number of higher CR combatants.
When it comes to dealing with a bunch of mooks:
A full attack with a laser rifle against CR-2 combatants is going to do 13.2 DPR.
Using the blast fusion with a laser rifle will do 3.9 * number of creatures.
Sniper Rifle will do 10.5 DPR.
And 4.55 * number of targets with the blast fusion.
With Empower Weapons and Blast Fusions
Laser Rifle Does 8.057 * Targets
Sniper Rifle does 8.92 * Targets
None of these weapons are going to one shot a 40 HP CR-2 Combatant at level 5.
A progression from Longarm -> Versatile Specialization -> Shock Caster might be interesting.
A shock caster will do 8.05 * Targets DPR at level 5 with a save for half damage.
A shock caster empowered by a level 2 spell does 16.65 save half * number of targets.
Those DPR numbers might be wrong as I'm assuming a miss on a shock caster does not reploy. With a 10ft radius, if it acts like a grenade and still goes off, the DPR could be much higher (up to 18.5 DPR/save half).
At level 7 the technomaner's version of a fireball does 31.5 DPR (34.5 with harmfull spell), again save half.
Wait. Isn't the max damage with magic missile + harmful spells 17.5?
2d4+2 (2 missiles) + 1d4+1 (3rd if cast as a full action) + 2.5 (harmful spells).
I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading the rules correctly (or not). I haven't played or run yet, so everything is still abstract in my head and I'm trying to use numbers to solidify how all this stuff works now.
Wait. Isn't the max damage with magic missile + harmful spells 17.5?
2d4+2 (2 missiles) + 1d4+1 (3rd if cast as a full action) + 2.5 (harmful spells).
I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading the rules correctly (or not). I haven't played or run yet, so everything is still abstract in my head and I'm trying to use numbers to solidify how all this stuff works now.
Average damage is 2.5 per d4. Max damage is not particularly useful when rolling multiple dice. Also harmful spell damage is level/2 round down.
Thanks for the clarification.
I must have misread harmful spells. I thought it worked like empower from third/PF, but with the weird caveat on magic missile. I'll have to re-read everything again.
The issue with Shock Caster is that NPCs have quite high saves.
For example, on level 10, with a level 10 Shock Caster and +5 Dex (start with 16, up to 18, +2 PU), the DC is 20 and a CR 10 Combatant will save on an 8. Barring any bonus damage except for Specialization, you're going to do:
7/20 * (2d12+10) + 13/20 * (2d12+10)/2 = 15.525 DPR
You're only gonna miss on a 1 and crit on a 20, so they balance each other out if it does no damage when missing.
Sonic Rifle, LFD is a level 10 Longarm which, according to your calculations, would do 14.7 on a single attack to a CR 10 Combatant (hit on 8). Yes, the Shock Caster does more damage, but probably not two feats and some Strength increases worth of more damage.
Interestingly, against single, low-CR opponents, it actually becomes worse by comparison. AC grows much faster than save bonuses. In this case, to hit a CR 8 Combatant, you need only roll a 5, so 3 less. But to save, the Combatant has to roll a 10, so just 2 more as compared to CR 10.
As a consequence of this, Sonic Rifle, LFD does 17.85 DPR on a single shot in that case. Shock Caster Aurora does 16.675.
On the flipside, it surprisingly becomes better against single, high-CR opponents (14.375 vs 11.55 DPR) which seems counterintuitive for a weapon built around splash damage.
Although if you can reliably hit multiple opponents, your DPR shoots up substantially, especially if you can bolster the damage with stuff like Overcharge. So, it's good against groups of any CR and single high-CR enemies. The ammo consumption is pretty rough, though.
Of course, any comparison of explosive weapons and normal ones has to consider that bonuses to attack rolls are pretty easy to come by (Weapon Focus, Get 'Em, Harrying Fire and probably other things I'm forgetting) while lowering an enemy's saves is fairly rare. So, this might shift the numbers in favor of Longarms.
By the way, small error, at least on Google Spreadsheets: The Full Attack column checks for "A$71=0", but A$71 is FALSE or TRUE. Might be the same in some programs, but apparently not in all.
The issue with Shock Caster is that NPCs have quite high saves.
For example, on level 10, with a level 10 Shock Caster and +5 Dex (start with 16, up to 18, +2 PU), the DC is 20 and a CR 10 Combatant will save on an 8. Barring any bonus damage except for Specialization, you're going to do:
7/20 * (2d12+10) + 13/20 * (2d12+10)/2 = 15.525 DPR
You're only gonna miss on a 1 and crit on a 20, so they balance each other out if it does no damage when missing.Sonic Rifle, LFD is a level 10 Longarm which, according to your calculations, would do 14.7 on a single attack to a CR 10 Combatant (hit on 8). Yes, the Shock Caster does more damage, but probably not two feats and some Strength increases worth of more damage.
Interestingly, against single, low-CR opponents, it actually becomes worse by comparison. AC grows much faster than save bonuses. In this case, to hit a CR 8 Combatant, you need only roll a 5, so 3 less. But to save, the Combatant has to roll a 10, so just 2 more as compared to CR 10.
As a consequence of this, Sonic Rifle, LFD does 17.85 DPR on a single shot in that case. Shock Caster Aurora does 16.675.On the flipside, it surprisingly becomes better against single, high-CR opponents (14.375 vs 11.55 DPR) which seems counterintuitive for a weapon built around splash damage.
Although if you can reliably hit multiple opponents, your DPR shoots up substantially, especially if you can bolster the damage with stuff like Overcharge. So, it's good against groups of any CR and single high-CR enemies. The ammo consumption is pretty rough, though.
Of course, any comparison of explosive weapons and normal ones has to consider that bonuses to attack rolls are pretty easy to come by (Weapon Focus, Get 'Em, Harrying Fire and probably other things I'm forgetting) while lowering an enemy's saves is fairly rare. So, this might shift the numbers in favor of Longarms.
By the way, small error, at least on Google Spreadsheets: The Full Attack column checks for "A$71=0", but A$71 is FALSE or TRUE....
Are you rolling against the constant AC of 15 to hit a grid intersection?
0 and 1 are binary for false and true, so if =0 means if false. It works on the ODT version of the sheet though I don't know if that would hold true for excel.
I suspect that the shock caster might do best in the hands of a mechanic with overcharge and weapon focus.
Are you rolling against the constant AC of 15 to hit a grid intersection?
5, not 15, meaning practically an auto-hit from very early levels. And yes, that's the only way to do it. You literally can't target a creature with explosive weapons. And there's little reason to, anyway, because explosive weapons do full damage in the entire radius.
I suspect that the shock caster might do best in the hands of a mechanic with overcharge and weapon focus.
Weapon Focus seems pretty pointless for that. You're always going to hit (except on a 1) and the DC does not increase when you have bonuses to hit. It does get reduced if you have penalties to hit, though, which makes Deadly Aim even worse.
And yeah, Overcharged Shock Caster seems pretty disgusting (extra damage in a gigantic radius? Yes, please.), but you're going to chew through ammo something fierce. At 30 charges per hit, you're going to get three shots off and that's it.
Yeah I just looked it up AC 5. Don't know why I was thinking it was AC 15. Some of those damage calculations above are going to be wrong as you should just use the straight specialization adjusted rolled damage number for DPR.
11.5 save for half doesn't sound too bad at level 5.
You could reload but it would cost you overcharging for a round (unless you were under a haste spell).
It seems like there is some type of optimal arrangement here that involves a combat drone and a Vesk mechanic using Improved Unarmed Attack with his natural weapon (yes I know the rules are unclear if this works) to free up money for the drone and the 16, 16, 11 stat array.
Overcharge the shock attack from the drone, attack with either a long arm or sniper rifle, then have the drone kick in an AOE at the end of your turn (I think the rules say the drone goes last out of the two of you).
Some of those damage calculations above are going to be wrong as you should just use the straight specialization adjusted rolled damage number for DPR.
You mean my calculations? No, the DPR is not just weapon damage + specialization. I had taken the enemies saving for half into account.
You could reload but it would cost you overcharging for a round (unless you were under a haste spell).
Hmm, does retrieving a battery to reload take a separate move action? I thought it was included in the move action to reload. If so, you have your standard action to overcharge and fire.
Also, if you have a drone (or a nearby ally), you can overcharge twice a round, once with a move action on your ally, once with a standard action on yourself to charge and fire.
I think what we have is a bad case of a spell that adds damage on your attack on your next round, a technomancer ability that takes a move action, a mechanic ability that takes either a standard or a move action and me talking about some rules that are hard to find in the SRD late at night.
Yeah you can both reload, overcharge and fire all in the same round.
So optimal damage looks something like: Overcharge Drone Weapon
Overcharge and Fire Character Weapon (probably a sniper rifle).
Drone fires overcharged shock caster.
My only concern is that combat drone dex is not great.
The technomancer on the other hand really seems optimized for a Sniper Rifle. Boosting with empowered weapon eats a spell slot and gives a bonus to hit that is not going to be useful with an area attack.
I still think an Exomechanic is best served with a Maze Core Shock Caster/Laser Rifle. You're only spending one feat on Versatile Specialization at level 7, the same level you can pick up Heavy Weapons for free as a mod. a couple levels of strength boost isn't the worst thing, for a class that already only needs INT and DEX.
In this way, you have Overcharge on a shock caster for groups, and a Laser Rifle for long range/single targets, and the ability swap back and forth as a swift action.
The Shock Caster can also be used on high AC targets to maintain consistent damage over time.
Of course, Overcharge your buddy every round too!
Overall highest DPR with a single character is probably a Drone Mechanic.
Combat Drone can easily use Heavy weapons, with their high STR and quick weapon proficiency access.
Mechanic should be using Longarms at least, Sniper if the want the extra 7 damage on average, and have no other feats they really want. Though , I think an argument for a Shock Caster is good here, due to the 3/4 BAB of the Mechanic. Yes, they can wring more damage out of a Diasporan Sniper Rifle than any class, shot for shot. A Drone Mechanic gets no bonuses to hit, unless their Drone is attacking the same target... Unlikely at long ranges.
You're only spending one feat on Versatile Specialization at level 7, the same level you can pick up Heavy Weapons for free as a mod.
Well, "free" is relative, given that there's quite some competition for those few Exocortex Mods you get. Resistance is always great, Enhanced Senses are nice if you don't have them yet and Jump Jets are a pretty substantial boost in mobility.
I'll probably go with Specialization and Proficiency as feats and pick up Fire Resistance through the mod. It's much better and slightly earlier than Resistant Energy, it scales faster (although it stops earlier) than Enhanced Resistance and you can always swap it out when you get Improved Resistant Energy.
|
I have been looking at the different projectile heavy weapons and trying to decide on the different and I want to thank you for the calculations you have done.
It seems reaction cannons are the losers when it comes to raw damage past what you have for a lvl 5 character range, do to its small capacity but are still probally worth it thru 10th do to haveing the penetrating quality.
Maybe I am having a difficult night but could you run thru in a little more detail how to use the DPR calculator, I have tried changeing some valuse but am not getting any success.
thanks
It's powerful, but it isn't always the most user friendly.
If you resort the melee and ranged weapon worksheets it will break the vlookups used for DPR calculations. To fix this resort by item number.
Put numbers in the green boxes (and the racial AC adjustment if you are trying to figure out the best armor for your character).
The boxes for weapons and armor are setup to give you a drop down menu.
In the upper right their are boxes for adding in modifiers to hit and damage. These have spots for both flat bonuses and rolling addition dice (for example, a Envoy adding expertise bonus to hit). Ranged and Melee have different boxes, which means you need to enter global bonuses twice.
ON the left side you have the following values:
Level: Required to properly computer CRs
Base Attack Bonus: Required to properly compute to hit / specialization damage
Str Bonus to Hit: For Melee weapons
Str Bonus To Damage: Independent of bonus to hit since soldiers can do 1.5*Str with the right ability.
Melee KAC Penalty: Set to zero.
Ranged KAC Penalty: Set to zero.
Opponents Resist: Only enter if you want to find DPR against an opponent with resits
Opponents Fast Healing: Use this number to estimate DPR against a forcefield, but be careful as it's more complicated than this when multiple PCs are attacking the same foe.
Melee Weapon: Select your weapon from the drop down.
Ranged Weapon: Selection your weapon from the drop down.
Armor: Select your armor from the drop down.
Dex Bonus: Required, enter your Dex bonus.
EAC Racial Bonus: Only used for PC armor calculations
KAC Racial Bonus: Only used for PC armor calcuations
You're only spending one feat on Versatile Specialization at level 7, the same level you can pick up Heavy Weapons for free as a mod.Well, "free" is relative, given that there's quite some competition for those few Exocortex Mods you get. Resistance is always great, Enhanced Senses are nice if you don't have them yet and Jump Jets are a pretty substantial boost in mobility.
I'll probably go with Specialization and Proficiency as feats and pick up Fire Resistance through the mod. It's much better and slightly earlier than Resistant Energy, it scales faster (although it stops earlier) than Enhanced Resistance and you can always swap it out when you get Improved Resistant Energy.
Drone mod jump Jets can only be used once a minute. You're better off with using that mod on an armor slot, and spending 3k on a jet pack.
Resistance, Echolocation, armor slot, and weapon proficiencies are the best ones, most certainly. Heavy weapons are such a huge damage multiplier in the correct circumstances though. If the most damage in a round with minimal investment is your goal, an exomechanic with heavy weapons and overcharge line, plus a heavy weapon soldier friend is hard to beat.
Outstanding work ! Tremendous help in trying to answer simple questions like "Bullet Barrage or Laser Accuracy ?", for example.
I admit I haven't played with every level/weapon combination yet, but it's also quite interesting to see Deadly Aim being more often than not close in DPR with regular attack mode. You basically trade accuracy for a chance of higher damage, which would mean the Feat is aimed more toward punching unexpected DR (or high risk/high reward gambits) rather than straight DPR increase.
It seems to be most useful with small arms and operative weapons. Guess where you hit somebody matters with a ,22 and not so much with a 50 Cal.
How do the disintegraters from Dead Suns #2 stack up?
Does this take into account trick attack? I'd think that sniper weapons would start to fall behind small arms for an operative, since they can't get trick attack's bonus damage.