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Bladed Brush (Combat)
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
This wonderfully flavorful combat option is not currently legal for society play, and I feel that is in error. I believe it has been omitted because of a large amount of confusion on what it actually provides, with many thinking that it allows a lot more than it actually does. From my reading, I see its effects to be limited to:
- Allows the use of Weapon Finesse for substituting Dex for attack rolls with a glaive.- Elven Branch Spear is a two-handed reach weapon that can do this without an additional feat, and the Glaive does not have the branch spear’s bonus on AoO attack rolls.
- The ability to use weapon finesse with the glaive is a function of this feat, becoming an ability of the character, not a property of the weapon. As such, the glaive is still not a valid target for the Agile weapon enchantment.
- Allows the glaive to be used with feats and class abilities that require a one-handed piercing or slashing weapon, and require not attacking with the off-hand.
- This is limited to swashbuckler/duelist style abilities. This does NOT state that the off-hand is empty, therefore it is still being used to wield the weapon. This prohibits its use for many other abilities that require the off-hand to be empty, such as Spell Combat or Slashing Grace. The character also cannot wield a shield in the off-hand. This means the only remaining method of gaining Dex to damage with the glaive is this feat with an Unchained Rogue’s Finesse Training ability.
- Some potentially silly (though far from optimal) uses or special concerns of this ability:
- Veiled Blade Swashbuckler could potentially hide a glaive on their person.
- Bladebound Magus or Blade Adept Arcanist could potentially use a Glaive as their Black Blade.
- Piercing Grapple could allow the glaive to be drawn in a grapple, but this does not restrict the grapple’s general restriction on doing actions with two hands.
- One-Handed Weapon tricks still require the off-hand to be empty, so they could not be used with the glaive.
- Pommel Strike Deed would work fine with the glaive, and is completely believable as a haft strike.
- Allows a move action to remove or re-apply the reach weapon property.
- This is in line with many other abilities that require an in-turn action to choose reach or not. This keeps threat range to adjacent OR reach, not both.
None of the above abilities provide any significant power to the character, yet they do allow a very flavorful use of a specific deities favored weapon, in a way that much more accurately reflects the deity. The very pacifist nature of Shelyn should also be considered in the decision making process. The imagery of a Tien Devoted Muse gracefully making her way through a scene, her glaive sweeping like a calligrapher’s large brush, harmlessly keeping enemies out of the fight, is one that should certainly be allowed in society play.
I do wish the feat was worded a bit clearer (avoiding the seemingly ambiguous ‘treat it as’ terminology), thus avoiding this confusion from the start. Had the feat been worded as follows, it’s effects would be the same, but I think the confusion would be gone.
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. You can use a glaive with feats and class abilities normally restricted to one-handed piercing or slashing weapons, or require the off-hand to not be making attacks (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike). The glaive is still wielded in both hands for these abilities.
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Even your version would allow something like a daring champion or normal swashbuckler to attack using power attack with a two-handed weapon, thus doing a lot more damage than all the other attack options where you have to have one free hand.
With the right build, you could combine this with flurry of blows or other ways to get even more out of your weapon.
The implied visual is great, but dexterity is already a pretty damn good stat this would likely push it beyond strength based builds who don't benefit from the other advantages.
You have to look at it from a power gamer perspective.
A power gamer will gladly build a STR based Swashbuckler (actually Daring Champion) who uses a glaive two handed with Power Attack and Precise Strike on top.
That's just way too much and that's why this feat will remain banned and that's a good thing...
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Here's my revision to the Bladed Brush feat. Note that it is an actual revision, not a clarification.
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
When wielding a glaive sized for you, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike). Your off-hand is still occupied by the glaive for all feats and abilities that require a free hand and may not be used for another purpose such as wielding a shield or casting a spell with somatic components. When treating a glaive as such it is considered a one-handed weapon for determining damage from your strength modifier, Power Attack, and similar abilities.
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can spend a move action to return to the normal grip.
These additional properties are a result of your training and fluidity, so when determining what enchantments can be placed on a glaive it is only considered to be a two-handed, slashing, reach weapon and not usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
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You have to look at it from a power gamer perspective.
A power gamer will gladly build a STR based Swashbuckler (actually Daring Champion) who uses a glaive two handed with Power Attack and Precise Strike on top.
That's just way too much and that's why this feat will remain banned and that's a good thing...
Do you have an example 5th level build to show it being broken? What armor class does this character have? How does it compare to a similarly singular-focused fighter, barbarian or rogue?
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Do you have an example 5th level build to show it being broken? What armor class does this character have? How does it compare to a similarly singular-focused fighter, barbarian or rogue?You have to look at it from a power gamer perspective.
A power gamer will gladly build a STR based Swashbuckler (actually Daring Champion) who uses a glaive two handed with Power Attack and Precise Strike on top.
That's just way too much and that's why this feat will remain banned and that's a good thing...
Just looking at level 5 might not be all you need, for PFS a options should not be broken for all levels.
There are builds that pretty much suck at lower levels and devastate the higher level scenarios.That said since you want to do this to get your devoted muse build going... have you considered going mesmerist as a base class to reliably feint against more creatures? (My planned character is scheduled to go into the prestige class with vigilante and mesmerist)
Also worth searching for the older threads about the feat, they already include quite a number of examples.
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Do you have an example 5th level build to show it being broken? What armor class does this character have? How does it compare to a similarly singular-focused fighter, barbarian or rogue?You have to look at it from a power gamer perspective.
A power gamer will gladly build a STR based Swashbuckler (actually Daring Champion) who uses a glaive two handed with Power Attack and Precise Strike on top.
That's just way too much and that's why this feat will remain banned and that's a good thing...
Just looking at level 5 might not be all you need, for PFS a options should not be broken for all levels.
There are builds that pretty much suck at lower levels and devastate the higher level scenarios.That said since you want to do this to get your devoted muse build going... have you considered going mesmerist as a base class to reliably feint against more creatures? (My planned character is scheduled to go into the prestige class with vigilante and mesmerist)
Also worth searching for the older threads about the feat, they already include quite a number of examples.
I have waded through quite a few of the bladed brush threads in the last day or so, and pulling examples from them is troublesome, mainly because many of them are based on false assumptions/interpretations (like slashing grace working with this, and being able to apply 1-1/2 dex to damage, etc). I mentioned 5th level, because, at least when looking at the daring champion situation, it's sort of the earliest that power attack + bladed brush would really even be significant (or even possible, if not human). Not to ignore higher levels, but looking at 5th as the starting point.
I am aware of the mesmerist -> muse interaction, but have not looked that hard at it. Part of my builds always reflect still being a lot of fun to play at all levels from 1 on, and the mesmerist, especially at low levels, seems - meh, whereas a swashbuckler, cavalier or paladin build can be fun from day 1. Aside from that, my latest idea of Daring Champion/Courtly Knight 4, Warpriest 2, gets me some nice blessings, some fervor, the bonus weapon focus needed, and the all important cure light wounds on the spell list for wand use. Courtly Knight 4 gets me +2 on all social skills, including the bluff needed for feinting, which is as much or more than a couple levels of mesmerist will provide.
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Here's my revision to the Bladed Brush feat. Note that it is an actual revision, not a clarification.
** spoiler omitted **
That is a very good change to the feat - and it would be great if it was implemented - unfortunately, i don't know if that would happen logistically. They don't errata soft covers. It's possible it shows up as an 'altered re-print' in a hard cover somewhere down the line, but that's a bit of a stretch for such a narrowly focused feat (single deity, single weapon). At most, it could make it to a blog post some day, that could then be added to additional resources.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Do you have an example 5th level build to show it being broken? What armor class does this character have? How does it compare to a similarly singular-focused fighter, barbarian or rogue?You have to look at it from a power gamer perspective.
A power gamer will gladly build a STR based Swashbuckler (actually Daring Champion) who uses a glaive two handed with Power Attack and Precise Strike on top.
That's just way too much and that's why this feat will remain banned and that's a good thing...
Just looking at level 5 might not be all you need, for PFS a options should not be broken for all levels.
There are builds that pretty much suck at lower levels and devastate the higher level scenarios.That said since you want to do this to get your devoted muse build going... have you considered going mesmerist as a base class to reliably feint against more creatures? (My planned character is scheduled to go into the prestige class with vigilante and mesmerist)
Also worth searching for the older threads about the feat, they already include quite a number of examples.
I have waded through quite a few of the bladed brush threads in the last day or so, and pulling examples from them is troublesome, mainly because many of them are based on false assumptions/interpretations (like slashing grace working with this, and being able to apply 1-1/2 dex to damage, etc). I mentioned 5th level, because, at least when looking at the daring champion situation, it's sort of the earliest that power attack + bladed brush would really even be significant (or even possible, if not human). Not to ignore higher levels, but looking at 5th as the starting point.
I am aware of the mesmerist -> muse interaction, but have not looked that hard at it. Part of my builds always reflect still being a lot of fun to play at all levels from 1 on, and the mesmerist, especially at low levels, seems - meh, whereas a swashbuckler,...
Mesmerist (with the right feats) allows you do to all your feint based tricks against creatures normally immune to it.. not 100 % but I prefer to be more relieable.
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I hadn't heard about this until today, and I'd like to extend a big thank you to the PFS team for not allowing it. It reminds me a bit of my experience with a player who used the Crusader's Flurry feat to totally destroy a low-tier running of #8-07: From the Tome.. He'd taken one level of cleric worshiping Gorum and then two levels of barbarian, and he was flurrying with his greatsword, essentially getting iterative attacks with 2-handed Str and Power Attack bonuses at level 3.
These deity-tied combat feats have two major flaws in my mind:
1) They encourage powergamers to take feats based on their combat utility, and then those folks tend to ignore any RP or character-related aspects of their build, focusing only on its combat abilities.
2) These feats tend to interact in unanticipated and often OP ways with existing feats, class features, etc.
I would much rather have the PFS team err on the side of caution and keep a lot of the new feats, archetypes, etc. out of the Society play, rather than let such material in where it can have a significant impact on content and the experience of other gamers.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I hadn't heard about this until today, and I'd like to extend a big thank you to the PFS team for not allowing it. It reminds me a bit of my experience with a player who used the Crusader's Flurry feat to totally destroy a low-tier running of #8-07: From the Tome.. He'd taken one level of cleric worshiping Gorum and then two levels of barbarian, and he was flurrying with his greatsword, essentially getting iterative attacks with 2-handed Str and Power Attack bonuses at level 3.
That character still needs a class with the flurry class feature (monk or unchained monk) and to do this little trick, said character can't wear armor.
Not saying, that this trick isn't pretty great at that level... but honestly not that much better than just a monk flurrying with a large piece of metal, particularly since it cost the user one point of BAB.
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I hadn't heard about this until today, and I'd like to extend a big thank you to the PFS team for not allowing it. It reminds me a bit of my experience with a player who used the Crusader's Flurry feat to totally destroy a low-tier running of #8-07: From the Tome.. He'd taken one level of cleric worshiping Gorum and then two levels of barbarian, and he was flurrying with his greatsword, essentially getting iterative attacks with 2-handed Str and Power Attack bonuses at level 3.
So they invested a level of cleric with 0 BAB, had to stick with non-UC monk (for martial artist, since they're clearly not lawful) and 2 feats to get 2.5 more average damage than just doing the same thing with a temple sword? That's actually a pretty anemic return on investment, just the -1 to hit vs. 2.5 damage is worse than power attack.
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1) They encourage powergamers to take feats based on their combat utility, and then those folks tend to ignore any RP or character-related aspects of their build, focusing only on its combat abilities.
Are you saying a melee character shouldn't focus their feats on combat utility? I mean that's character building 101.
You'd think people would be happy with this feat because not only does it make a common fantasy trope (a dex reach weapon fighter) mechanically viable, it also injects flavor into that character by requiring them to be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Bladed Brush is not overpowered at all. There are plenty of melee builds that exist in PFS that completely overshadow a Bladed Brush user. A simple power attacking Barbarian with Greater Beast Totem for pounce can do it.
The case that Bladed Brush suddenly puts a Swashbuckler over the top in damage isn't valid.
1. The user doesn't get dex to damage unless they take a 3 level dip in Unchained Rogue.
2. Any Swashbuckler worth her sweat will be using power attack / pirhanna strike to begin with. So the power attack with a glaive will be netting +1 damage per 4 BAB for a total of +6 damage by 20th level.
3. The critical hit chance will only be 19-20/x3 which has less DPR value than a 15-20/x2. Also, it means the Swashbuckler will be regaining panache at a far less rate.
4. You lose out on a buckler until the unhindering shield feat which requires shield focus. This is a significant drop in AC which the Swashbuckler can't shore up with Parry / Riposte due to the difficulty with regaining panache.
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Fencing is an iconic fighting style with advantages that the game has a hard time replicating. So hard in fact that paizo had to make an entire class (the swashbuckler) and rewrite a number of feats to make viable without handing its goodies out to other fighting styles.
Anything that lets you use that with something that is not a one handed fencing weapon instantly makes that thing better than fencing, completely negating the entire point of fencing as a style.
Bladed brush can (or can be read as) working with slashing grace and the swashbuckler class. It would completely remove rapier fighting as a niche.
That isn't a problem at a table, you've got 6 people and none of them were going to be a stereotypical swashbuckler anyway. But holy cow is that a problem when you have 100,000 players and a bunch of them have an option of taking 1 deity and one fighting style or being objectively worse with a more traditional/thematic fighting style.
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I have waded through quite a few of the bladed brush threads in the last day or so, and pulling examples from them is troublesome, mainly because many of them are based on false assumptions/interpretations (like slashing grace working with this, and being able to apply 1-1/2 dex to damage, etc).
You say they're false, other people say they're true. That kind of a split alone will get something banned, as there's no way to decide who's right without an FAQ (a process which isn't under the pfs teams control)
elven branched spear does require a feat (or a feat equivilant) , why don't you just make one thats a beautiful wind chime on a stick for a shelynite?
I have waded through quite a few of the bladed brush threads in the last day or so, and pulling examples from them is troublesome, mainly because many of them are based on false assumptions/interpretations (like slashing grace working with this, and being able to apply 1-1/2 dex to damage, etc).You say they're false, other people say they're true. That kind of a split alone will get something banned, as there's no way to decide who's right without an FAQ (a process which isn't under the pfs teams control)
elven branched spear does require a feat (or a feat equivilant) , why don't you just make one thats a beautiful wind chime on a stick for a shelynite?
Actually, that kind of split should not get a thing banned, it should warrant a line in the clarifications (well, actually it warrants errata - but we all know that won't happen because softcover).
The reason the Shelynite should be focused on the glaive is because that is what she ripped from her corrupted brother's hand. The Shelynite wielding a glaive is a testament to her incorruptable nature, and the ability to find beauty in all things. The ability to use that weapon in non-destructive ways (via deeds, combat maneuvers and devoted muse) further honors the goddess.
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Actually, that kind of split should not get a thing banned, it should warrant a line in the clarifications (well, actually it warrants errata - but we all know that won't happen because softcover).
And if it gets said clarification in a way that's too powerful?
I really can't see the way you're reading it, at all. It seems deliberately designed to let you swashbuckle with a glaive. "Clarifying" that into something that doesn't do that is a power adjustment beyond what the PFS team is for.
The reason the Shelynite should be focused on the glaive is because that is what she ripped from her corrupted brother's hand. The Shelynite wielding a glaive is a testament to her incorruptable nature, and the ability to find beauty in all things. The ability to use that weapon in non-destructive ways (via deeds, combat maneuvers and devoted muse) further honors the goddess.
Get a cold iron elven spear with a lot of weird and unnecesary spikes on it, making it something more like what Zun kuthon would have than a glaive.
Believe me, I love getting the mechanics and flavor to line up, but there's more flexibility in your ability to do that with a slightly off model build than in the entire campaign and a very difficult design decision accommodating one character
And if it gets said clarification in a way that's too powerful?
I really can't see the way you're reading it, at all. It seems deliberately designed to let you swashbuckle with a glaive. "Clarifying" that into something that doesn't do that is a power adjustment beyond what the PFS team is for.
Where did I even come close to implying that it wasn't designed for the swashbuckler? It is very much designed explicitly for that (and the devoted muse as well, since it is printed directly with that swashbuckler based prestige class).
The confusions I see with this feat that needs clarification are that it cannot be used with slashing grace, and cannot be used with spell combat - those are two things that upon initial reads many thought were possible, and needs to be clarified before pfs makes it legal.
Get a cold iron elven spear with a lot of weird and unnecesary spikes on it, making it something more like what Zun kuthon would have than a glaive.
Believe me, I love getting the mechanics and flavor to line up, but there's more flexibility in your ability to do that with a slightly off model build than in the entire campaign and a very difficult design decision accommodating one character.
Whisperer of Souls is an artifact that changes with it's use and wielder, as well as the souls it contains. When Zon Kuthon had it, it very well may have been dark and spiky (though it was still very much a glaive). Shelyn, though many centuries, and many trials, has released many of the souls trapped within it, and in doing so, has transformed it into a beautiful piece of art (that is still very much a glaive). Honestly, I'm not sure I understand a reason to NOT use a glaive, when trying to mechanically represent a glaive.
And beyond that... you cannot swashbuckle/devoted muse with a branch spear unless they made a feat that allowed you to do so... they did that with the glaive, shelyn's favored weapon, with a shelyn specific feat, so that you CAN use it with the devoted muse - a shelyn specific prestige class.
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I hadn't heard about this until today, and I'd like to extend a big thank you to the PFS team for not allowing it. It reminds me a bit of my experience with a player who used the Crusader's Flurry feat to totally destroy a low-tier running of #8-07: From the Tome.. He'd taken one level of cleric worshiping Gorum and then two levels of barbarian, and he was flurrying with his greatsword, essentially getting iterative attacks with 2-handed Str and Power Attack bonuses at level 3.
There is a LOT wrong in this statement, whether it was rules wrong at the table, or you are interpreting it wrong, I'm not sure. But.. Crusader's Flurry, by itself does not allow flurry of blows. It still requires monk levels (or similar class) to do that. A Cleric [Gorum] 1/Barbarian 2 cannot flurry with a greatsword, whether it has crusaders flurry or not.
Aside from that, flurrying with a two handed weapon does NOT allow 1.5 strength to damage. Flurry of Blows explicitly states that it applies only the single str bonus, no matter what weapon is used or how it is wielded.
If I am misreading what you wrote, or you find you were mistaken, please correct me/it - but this anecdote currently should have no bearing at all on how bladed brush is ruled.
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You are not swashbuckling with a pole arm. If thats where you're trying to go, take a hint from desna and find another destination.
The entire point of the swashbuckler is to make a one handed weapon user a thing that has any point in existing at all. The second you can swashbuckle with something else, the swashbuckler loses most of it's reason to exist.
I'm not sure I understand a reason to NOT use a glaive, when trying to mechanically represent a glaive.
Because you thematically want a dancing flowing pretty combat style and thats dex, which works with an elven branch spear. getting a glaive to do that isn't available, taking a tiny bit of artistic license with the appearance of Whisperer of souls is.
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Except that would be considered 're-fluffing' and therefore *illegal*.
Nope. You can't make it look like a glaive, but
Behind this long pole weapon’s spearhead, several short branches project from the shaft at irregular intervals, each angled forward and tipped with a smaller leaf-like blade
There's definitely room in that description for something dark, barbed, and nasty looking from the zon kothon decor collection.
Which you then paint with rainbows and glitter.
who's to say whether Excalibur was a longsword or a gladius or a bastard sword?
You are not swashbuckling with a pole arm. If thats where you're trying to go, take a hint from desna and find another destination.
The entire point of the swashbuckler is to make a one handed weapon user a thing that has any point in existing at all. The second you can swashbuckle with something else, the swashbuckler loses most of it's reason to exist.
I'm not sure I understand a reason to NOT use a glaive, when trying to mechanically represent a glaive.Because you thematically want a dancing flowing pretty combat style and thats dex, which works with an elven branch spear. getting a glaive to do that isn't available, taking a tiny bit of artistic license with the appearance of Whisperer of souls is.
Or just use Bladed Brush.
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So lets get some numbers on the table.
I have made three builds detailed below:
Ifrit Swashbuckler lvl 10
Str 13
Dex 20 (22 from belt)
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha:16 (18 from belt)
Feats:
1st: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
3rd: Slashing Grace (Scimitar)
4th: Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
5th: Power Attack
7th: Dodge
8th: Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
9th: Shield Focus
Traits: Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
AC: 36 (Mithril Breastplate +2, Buckler+2, Amulet +2, Ring +2, Ion Stone +1, +1 Dodge, +2 Nimble)
Saves (Cloak of Resist +2):
Fort: + 6
Ref: +15
Will: +6
Attacks:
Scimitar (+3 Adamantium) +20 / +15
[+10 BAB, +6 DEX, +3 Weapon, +2 GWF, +2 WT, -3 PA]
Damage: 1d6 +27 (15-20x2)
[+6 DEX, +10 Precise, +3 Weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +6 PA]
DPR (Calculated off an AC 24 opponent)
Single Attack: 28.5 (36.5 with 1 panache point & swift action)
[.8(30.5)+(.25)(1)(.8)(20.5)]
Full-Round Attack: 48.1 (56.1 with 1 panache point & swift action)
[.8(30.5)+(.25)(1)(.8)(19.5)] + [.55(30.5)+(.25)(1)(.55)(20.5)]
DPR (When flanking)
Single Attack: 32.06
[.9(30.5)+(.25)(1)(.9)(20.5)]
Full-Round Attack: 55.24
[.9(30.5)+(.25)(1)(.9)(19.5)] + [.65(30.5)+(.25)(1)(.65)(20.5)]
This is your run of the mill Qadiran Swashbuckler.
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Ifrit Swashbuckler lvl 10
Str: 14
Dex: 20 (22 from belt)
Con: 13
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 15 (17 from belt)
Feats:
1st: Weapon Focus (Glaive)
3rd: Bladed Brush
4th: Weapon Specialization (Glaive)
5th: Power Attack
7th: Shield Focus
8th: Unhindering Shield
9th: Greater Weapon Focus (Glaive)
Traits: Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
AC: 35 (Mithril Breastplate +2, Buckler+2, Amulet +2, Ring +2, Ion Stone +1, +2 Nimble)
Saves (Cloak of Resist +2):
Fort: + 6
Ref: +15
Will: +6
Attacks:
Glaive (+3 Adamantium) +20 / +15
[+10 BAB, +6 DEX, +3 Weapon, +2 GWF, +2 WT, -3 PA]
Damage: 1d8 +27 (19-20x3)
[+3 STR, +10 Precise, +3 Weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +9 PA]
DPR (Calculated off an AC 24 opponent)
Single Attack: 28.64 (36.64 with 1 panache point & swift action)
[.8(31.5)+(.1)(2)(.8)(21.5)]
Full-Round Attack: 48.48 (56.48 with 1 panache point & swift action)
[.8(31.5)+(.1)(2)(.8)(21.5)] + [.55(31.5)+(.1)(2)(.55)(21.5)]
DPR (When Flanking)
Single Attack: 32.22
[.9(31.5)+(.1)(2)(.9)(21.5)]
Full-Round Attack: 55.5
[.9(31.5)+(.1)(2)(.9)(21.5)] + [.65(31.5)+(.1)(2)(.65)(21.5)]
This Swashbuckler spends 8 levels of her career roughly 1-4 AC below her Scimitar counterpart. Right now she is still behind by 1. In addition, her social skill are at 1 less due to a lower Charisma, she has less panache, and gains less panache due to a lower crit range.
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Ifrit Unchained Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler lvl 7
Str 13
Dex 20 (22 from belt)
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha:16 (18 from belt)
Feats:
1st: Weapon Focus (Glaive)
3rd: Bladed Brush
5th: Power Attack
7th: Weapon Specialization (Glaive)
7th: Shield Focus
9th: Unhindering Shield
Traits: Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
AC: 35 (Mithril Breastplate +2, Buckler+2, Amulet +2, Ring +2, Ion Stone +1, +2 Nimble)
Saves (Cloak of Resist +2):
Fort: + 6
Ref: +16
Will: +6
Attacks :
Glaive (+3 Adamantium) +17 / +12
[+9 BAB, +6 DEX, +3 Weapon, +1 WF, +1 WT, -3 PA]
Damage: 1d8 +30 (19-20x3)
[+9 DEX, +7 Precise, +3 Weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +9 PA]
DPR (Calculated off an AC 24 opponent)
Single Attack: 26 (30.54 with 1 panache point & swift action)
[.65(34.5)+(.1)(2)(.65)(27.5)]
Full-Round Attack: 42 (46.54 with 1 panache point & swift action)
[.65(34.5)+(.1)(2)(.65)(27.5)] + [.4(34.5)+(.1)(2)(.4)(27.5)]
DPR (Flanking so +7 damage for sneak attack)
Single Attack: 35.25
[.75(41.5)+(.1)(2)(.75)(27.5)]
Full-Round Attack: 58.75
[.75(41.5)+(.1)(2)(.75)(27.5)] + [.5(41.5)+(.1)(2)(.5)(27.5)]
This is an attempt to gain Dex to damage with the Glaive due to a three level rogue dip. She spends 9 levels of her career 1-4 AC below her Scimitar counterpart. Right now she is still behind by 1. In addition she is behind 1 feat, she has less panache, and gains less panache due to a lower crit range. Her advantages are slightly more overall skills and +1 reflex save.
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Now putting all the DPR numbers together and using the Scimitar Swashbuckler as the baseline we get:
Single Attack: Glaive +.14 > Scimitar > Rogue -1.5
Full-Round Attack: Glaive +.38 > Scimitar > Rogue - 6.1
The Glaive is winning by .14 & .38 DPR which is so minuscule it won't be noticed. They do have reach but at the cost of less panache points, less panache point regen, less AC (way less AC over 8 levels), and less social skills... That is not overpowered in the slightest. Most would say actually under powered.
The Rogue, which is getting 1.5x Dex to damage, is pretty far behind and suffers all the same problems as the Glaive mentioned above.
When Flanking:
Single Attack: Rogue +3.19 > Glaive +.16 > Scimitar
Full-Round Attack: Rogue +3.51 > Glaive +.26 > Scimitar
Of course the Rogue pulls ahead but only by 3.19-3.51 DPR. The Glaive is virtually identical to the Scimitar.
Also, the Scimitar wielder will have more panache to spend which means more parries / precise strikes which would let them easily overcome such a minor DPR gap.
The Glaive build takes 8 levels before its AC comes online and the Rogue 9 levels plus 4 levels of mediocrity... So again I ask how is Bladed Brush remotely overpowered?
Human Daring Champion Exploitor of Shelyn
STR 20 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 7 (Cause Panache pool doesn't matter you only want precise Stike damage)
Order of the Dragon/Order of the Green (Both get a to hit bonus on Challenge)
1 Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Glaive), Finesse (Bonus)
3 Bladed Brush
5 Combat Reflexes
6 Extra Panache?
7 Iron Will
9 Improved Critical
STR Belt/ Cloack of Resistance/Plume of Panche/ +X Glaive
Level 5 PA Attack on a Challenge +13 Damage 1d10+26
Level 9 PA Attack on a Challenge +20/+15 Damage 1d10+43
And that's just a vanilla build...
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If I am misreading what you wrote, or you find you were mistaken, please correct me/it - but this anecdote currently should have no bearing at all on how bladed brush is ruled.
I may very well have remembered the episode incorrectly, and upon reflection, I do think a level of monk was involved. However, and equally likely, I may have allowed the player to play a character not fully permitted by the rules.
And this leads to a third concern and reason for an err on the side of caution policy, it can become very difficult for a novice GM to know when a player's build is legal and when it is not without spending a significant amount of time dissecting it. Within the last month, I let through an incorrectly constructed overrun specialist, and it wasn't until after the end of the scenario and with the help of a more experience PFS person, I discovered that the character had two more feats than were allowed by the archetype being used.
I have seen a number of other cases where players, innocently or not, put together builds with one or more illegal features. The more complex PFS play becomes, the more likely this is to happen, and I think this issue has the potential to deter folks from playing and GMing PFS.
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The feat is overpowered because it does way too much. It gives you three powerful effects for the price of one feat. One lets you use Dexterity for a powerful reach weapon. Another throws balance out the window by letting you use a glaive with abilities deliberately balanced to disallow them. A third negates the drawbacks of using reach weapons.
Any of these abilities would be good enough to be its own feat. Your proposal doesn't fix or address this at all.
The feat is overpowered because it does way too much. It gives you three powerful effects for the price of one feat. One lets you use Dexterity for a powerful reach weapon. Another throws balance out the window by letting you use a glaive with abilities deliberately balanced to disallow them. A third negates the drawbacks of using reach weapons.
Any of these abilities would be good enough to be its own feat. Your proposal doesn't fix or address this at all.
How does Slashing Grace weigh against that?
It allows dex to non-dex a weapon.
It allows a weapon to be used with abilities deliberately balanced to disallow them.
It allows Dex to damage (arguably far more impactful than the ability to spend a move action to turn reach on or off, considering that could be done by drawing a non-reach weapon with the same action if need be).
Some of this is offset on bladed brush by the additional deity restriction that slashing grace does not have. A pacifist deity at that.
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Letting a swashbuckler use a cutlass instead of a rapier is no where near as big of an upgrade as using a two-handed reach weapon getting full benefits of Power Attack.
Also, Slashing Grace is a horribly designed feat. I've seen Dex-to-damage options that were more balanced, better written, and less needlessly complicated from 3rd party publishers.
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Some of this is offset on bladed brush by the additional deity restriction that slashing grace does not have. A pacifist deity at that.
If you think that having to worship Shelyn is going to in any significant way impact the most egregious PFS power gamers then you're playing with a very different subset of PFS power gamers than I am.
Note - I'm NOT saying all power gamers are bad roleplayers. I AM saying that all power gamers who are also good roleplayers will find some in character excuse to kick ass with their glaives.
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Human Daring Champion Exploitor of Shelyn
STR 20 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 7 (Cause Panache pool doesn't matter you only want precise Stike damage)...
Level 5 PA Attack on a Challenge +13 Damage 1d10+26
Level 9 PA Attack on a Challenge +20/+15 Damage 1d10+43
Use this same build with the following exceptions: Swap Bladed Brush for Slashing Grace and swap Dex with Str.
The Scimitar user is only 6 damage behind (Glaive gets +3 more from high STR and +3 from Power Attack). Really he's only about 4 or 5 damage behind due to 15-20/x2 crit being more favorable than 19-20/x3. When you use challenge their DPR numbers get closer since the Scimitar's crit range is better which means more time to double challenge. But I don't want to do all the number crunching to show that so I'll settle for simplicity and say the Glaive user is up 6 damage.
So for that 6 damage and reach what is the Glaive user giving up? His AC will be around 5 down by this point (Mithril Breatsplate nets +1 AC over fullplate, Scimitar will have a +3 buckler. In addition, he cannot parry most attacks since they will be within his reach. Also he is running off less panache which means less precise strikes... So you think gaining 6 damage and losing 5 AC is unbalancing?
This, and the fact this is a reach one-handed weapon who can make a 19-20 threat and a x3 multiplier, quite too handy for a swashbuckler. So saying it's not overpowered is a little bit of a laugh.
This is false. A 15-20/x2 multiplier nets more damage than a 19-20/x3 A 15-20/x2 is the equivalent of a 19-20/x4 (however many prefer the 15-20 range since the extra damage off a x4 is generally "wasted"). In addition Swashbuckler's favor high crit range since it fuels their panache.
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I know it's not on a spreadsheet, but Reach is enormous. It's not only more attacks (which is itself huge) , its less aoo's moving up to large creatures, frontloads the damage to the start of the fight, and on a swashbuckler lets you get more kills and crits to fire up the penache pool.
I think you are overvaluing reach, especially in the hands of a Swashbuckler.
- Reach means you can't parry/riposte attacks adjacent to you.
- If you care about moving through a large creature's AoO the non-glaive user can just swap out dodge for lunge and still be at the same AC as the Glaive. In addition, the Swash should have enough acrobatics that AoO aren't a problem.
- To use reach effectively you need lunge and combat reflexes, two more feats to put you behind. If you choose to drop shield focus / unhindering shield you are looking at a 5 AC drop. If you choose to drop Weapon Focus then you are losing DPR and fall behind the Scimitar user (which you are only up by.38 DPR... so you're essentially equal).
-front loading the damage assumes either the monster is moving first or you readied an action to attack. When readying this is perhaps the biggest problem with Reach is many GMs can easily avoid triggering your attacks. The don't even need to metagame since it's obvious you're wielding a weapon with reach. If the monster moves first then again you'd hope the monster has no other reason but to attack you but also the Swashbuckler / Dex user favors high Initiative.
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I think the biggest problem with what I'm seeing are the reasons against Bladed Brush are based on an extremely unbalanced perspective on the game. They only state the advantages gained without looking at what the character is sacrificing to gain those advantages. From that perspective anything that gives a character a unique ability is going to be overpowered.
Also another thing to add is at higher levels the 15-20/x2 swash will be more effective than the 19-20/x3 due to critical feats.
The examples given, I think, do illustrate well that the feat as interpreted here (not providing dex to damage via slashing grace, not working with spell combat, etc), is certainly not overpowered, and follows along with most other offense vs. defense trade-offs already legal. This leaves the reason for it's exclusion from additional resources to be due to the ambiguity of the above capabilities (slashing grace, spell combat, etc). This is why I do feel it works find as a note in the campaign clarifications, simply verifying that it does not count the off-hand as empty, and as such, cannot be used with feats an abilities that require that (spell combat, slashing grace, etc). This is an issue with interpretation, not rules as written, which seems to be exactly what the campaign clarifications are for.
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- Reach means you can't parry/riposte attacks adjacent to you.
..without armored spikes or a cesti or a dagger in your other hand or having a bite attack. Your other hand is free, so you can get the beneftits of another weapon.
Huh. Just realized, you could parry riposte with a spiked shield couldn't you?
- To use reach effectively you need lunge and combat reflexes, two more feats to put you behind. If you choose to drop shield focus / unhindering shield you are looking at a 5 AC drop. If you choose to drop Weapon Focus then you are losing DPR and fall behind the Scimitar user (which you are only up by.38 DPR... so you're essentially equal).
Hmmm? Combat reflexes yes but not lunge. You need reach on the opponents turn, lunge shuts off at the end of yours.
If you have Parry and riposte with an answering weapon AC really isn't a concern anymore.
-front loading the damage assumes either the monster is moving first or you readied an action to attack. When readying this is perhaps the biggest problem with Reach is many GMs can easily avoid triggering your attacks. The don't even need to metagame since it's obvious you're wielding a weapon with reach. If the monster moves first then again you'd hope the monster has no other reason but to attack you but also the Swashbuckler / Dex user favors high Initiative.
I just assume every combat starts with a surprise round, because dms and the scenarios love their surprise rounds.
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This is an issue with interpretation, not rules as written, which seems to be exactly what the campaign clarifications are for.
There's no issue with misinterpretation here. The feat is overpowered because it has way too many benefits. And you haven't provided compelling arguments why it should become legal.
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There's no issue with misinterpretation here. The feat is overpowered because it has way too many benefits. And you haven't provided compelling arguments why it should become legal.
No the issue is when people claim it is overpowered we are taking their reasons and showing how those are not overpowered using math / what you are giving up to achieve the lackluster yields of the feat.
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There's no issue with misinterpretation here. The feat is overpowered because it has way too many benefits. And you haven't provided compelling arguments why it should become legal.No the issue is when people claim it is overpowered we are taking their reasons and showing how those are not overpowered using math / what you are giving up to achieve the lackluster yields of the feat.
If spreadsheets were an accurate measure of combat effectiveness two weapon fighting rogues would be the bees knees and archers would be meh.
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Huh. Just realized, you could parry riposte with a spiked shield couldn't you?
Sure you can.. But now you are dropping precise strike. Seriously please consider what you are giving up in addition to what you are gaining. Otherwise you have a really unbalanced perspective.
Also, if you're wielding a Glaive in One-Hand you are cutting the entire argument that it is overpowered due to two-handed. Considering you have to 2-hand PA+STR just to keep up with a Scimitar Swashbuckler you are now dropping behind in DPR.
On top of that Bladed Brush doesn't allow you to wield a Glaive as a One-Handed weapon. It just lets you treat it as such, and your off-hand as empty, for all class abilities that require it.
Hmmm? Combat reflexes yes but not lunge. You need reach on the opponents turn, lunge shuts off at the end of yours.
Lunge is critical. It lets you attack the opponent at reach and then the opponent has to provoke an AoO to get to you. Otherwise you attack the opponent and they 5 ft. step to you.
If you have Parry and riposte with an answering weapon AC really isn't a concern anymore.
So now you're defending the lower AC by saying you can just parry with a build that is panache starved from the get go?
I just assume every combat starts with a surprise round, because dms and the scenarios love their surprise rounds.
I'll definitely agree that many GMs run the whole surprise thing completely incorrect. But that doesn't mean the GM won't either move around your PC or just target your PC with ranged attacks. Heck my Swashbuckler without reach gets avoided simply because the GMs are afraid of Parry / Riposte and his high AC.
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If spreadsheets were an accurate measure of combat effectiveness two weapon fighting rogues would be the bees knees and archers would be meh.
I mean Pathfinder at it's heart is using math to simulate fantasy conflict. ECL uses math to determine appropriate challenges, Character gold levels are carefully calculated, etc. When debating / figuring out the mechanical effectiveness of your character it's important you use math to have the most average (balanced) view of your yield.
Then the subjective arguments, such as reach being this all powerful tool, aren't very strong and don't take into account the balance of what you are giving up.
I don't mind sitting at a table with people who ignore the math. I don't mind sitting at a table with people who build characters chock full of fluff feats / don't choose feats based on combat utility.
I do however don't understand when those people get upset their character isn't performing well mechanically compared to someone at the table who took the time to do the math. It's also difficult when they come to the conclusion something is too powerful and refuse to grasp the entire picture and just keep saying "Well they get X" and
ignoring that they are giving up Y and Z to get it.