Sure. Well, not by sitting down with the sorcerer and having it explained, it's a two-step process.
1) Sorcerer scribes scroll of spell.
2) Wizard copies spell from scroll into spellbook.
A wizard can get any spell that way, as long as it's on the wizard spell list.
A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
The Wizard could Research the spell with the Sorcerers help. As a DM, I would give a bonus to the Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
This is a question better left to your minds and how you and your group want to handle magic in your world. Certainly, the scroll scribing would work, but could the sorcerer teach the wizard who uses magic writing to record it for his own purposes? Up to you.
I would allow it in my games and vice versa. Seems like a realistic fantasy to me. Why not?
This is a question better left to your minds and how you and your group want to handle magic in your world. Certainly, the scroll scribing would work, but could the sorcerer teach the wizard who uses magic writing to record it for his own purposes? Up to you.
I would allow it in my games and vice versa. Seems like a realistic fantasy to me. Why not?
The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched.
I would still have the Wizard follow the full Research required, just have the Sorcerer help him with the checks.
Yes, but only if they're willing to bleed. And not in PFS.
According to the spell description that you linked, it doesn't work unless the donor spellcaster is dead -- a blood donation isn't good enough.
I believe the wizard can scribe the scroll and have the sorcerer cast the spell for him to make the scroll, then learn the spell from the scroll.
Yes, that works. Beats my version in that the sorcerer doesn't need Scribe Scroll, too.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
No houseruling (or research) needed, guys, this is RAW.
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Huh. That's a really interesting idea! And it'd make for an interesting character concept as well; someone able to research and compile a spell list by simply learning from other casters. Could be a neat scholar-type to try and roll up. I worry that it might not be entirely viable though, due to some of the wording.
You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.
See magic item creation rules for more information.
Emphasis mine. I totally agree that you can make magic items utilizing wands, scrolls, or other casters. But the wording in Scribe Scroll makes it seem like it would be restricted to only things the scriber themselves are capable of casting, which would throw an unfortunate wrench into things.
I totally agree that you can make magic items utilizing wands, scrolls, or other casters. But the wording in Scribe Scroll makes it seem like it would be restricted to only things the scriber themselves are capable of casting, which would throw an unfortunate wrench into things.
Yes, except that if we interpret things that way then we end up saying the same thing about all magic items:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require.
The same language is present in the sections for creating the other categories of item.
I don't think that means that the line "(although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)," in the general rules section above them, doesn't apply to anything ever. It means they didn't want to repeat it every time. Treat "the creator" as "the creator and whomever they're working with" and "you" as "you and whomever you're working with." At least, I can't see any other sensible interpretation offhand.
Would this allow a Wizard to learn spells from his cleric buddy (that are on both lists, of course.)
Since there's a FAQ that wizards can use divine scrolls to fulfill item creation requirements, I don't see any reason they couldn't use a divine scroll to get the spell into their spellbook, though they might have to make a UMD roll.
I totally agree that you can make magic items utilizing wands, scrolls, or other casters. But the wording in Scribe Scroll makes it seem like it would be restricted to only things the scriber themselves are capable of casting, which would throw an unfortunate wrench into things.Yes, except that if we interpret things that way then we end up saying the same thing about all magic items:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require.The same language is present in the sections for creating the other categories of item.
I don't think that means that the line "(although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)," in the general rules section above them, doesn't apply to anything ever. It means they didn't want to repeat it every time. Treat "the creator" as "the creator and whomever they're working with" and "you" as "you and whomever you're working with." At least, I can't see any other sensible interpretation offhand.
Sure. And I can totally see where you're coming from on that front. I feel like the difference here is that you aren't necessarily casting the spell like you would when creating something like a Cloak of Resistance, where you just need the spell being cast as part of the creation. While the rules don't specify one way or another that you have to cast the spell into the page you are scribing, it seems like a reasonable interpretation that you're simply writing down the knowledge you have. But that's still just interpretation at that point.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
The last line in particular makes me think that you might not be able to get away with it, since that requires the caster to know the spell, as feats such as Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion specify. It's something that could certainly be looked into more.
Well, we still haven't answered the OP fully, as we don't know whether the wizard knowing Scribe Scroll is enough or whether the sorc needs it. I'll stop discussing the divine scroll bit, though, that's off-topic.
Sure. And I can totally see where you're coming from on that front. I feel like the difference here is that you aren't necessarily casting the spell like you would when creating something like a Cloak of Resistance, where you just need the spell being cast as part of the creation. While the rules don't specify one way or another that you have to cast the spell into the page you are scribing, it seems like a reasonable interpretation that you're simply writing down the knowledge you have. But that's still just interpretation at that point.
I don't believe you actually cast the spell in either case, cloak or scroll.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Does that sway your assessment?
Scribe Scroll is very specific that you can only write a spell that YOU know. The general rule of having other spell casters help you make items cannot be applied to Scribe Scrolls, which has a specific requirement.
There's an FAQ: YOU must know the spell for scrolls and potions.
There's an FAQ: YOU must know the spell for scrolls and potions.
I had thought there was, then couldn't find it and decided I'd been wrong. Link?
There's an FAQ: YOU must know the spell for scrolls and potions.I had thought there was, then couldn't find it and decided I'd been wrong. Link?
There isn't one. The only FAQ there is is the one that says when creating potions, scrolls, staves, wands, and other spell completion/spell-trigger items you can not skip the spell requirements. It never says how those requirements must be met, just that they must be met.
The actual rules on how those requirements must be met allows the spell to come from someone else (or a magic item).
There's an FAQ: YOU must know the spell for scrolls and potions.I had thought there was, then couldn't find it and decided I'd been wrong. Link?There isn't one. The only FAQ there is is the one that says when creating potions, scrolls, staves, wands, and other spell completion/spell-trigger items you can not skip the spell requirements. It never says how those requirements must be met, just that they must be met.
The actual rules on how those requirements must be met allows the spell to come from someone else (or a magic item).
Disagree - specific over general: Specifically scrolls:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
The CREATOR MUST clearly overrules the general rule of using other spell casters to craft.
There's an FAQ: YOU must know the spell for scrolls and potions.I had thought there was, then couldn't find it and decided I'd been wrong. Link?There isn't one. The only FAQ there is is the one that says when creating potions, scrolls, staves, wands, and other spell completion/spell-trigger items you can not skip the spell requirements. It never says how those requirements must be met, just that they must be met.
The actual rules on how those requirements must be met allows the spell to come from someone else (or a magic item).
Disagree - specific over general: Specifically scrolls:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
The CREATOR MUST clearly overrules the general rule of using other spell casters to craft.
Then you can never skip spell requirements for any magic item because every single type of item (with the exception of rings) has the same language. For example, from creating wondrous items:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Obviously that isn't correct. Most items can skip the spell requirements, and spell requirements can be met by another caster or magic item. Each of those different item type sections are as wrong in Pathfinder as they were in 3.x D&D.
The rules of how you meet spell requirements does not change between item types:
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
Notice how it says absolutely nothing about working differently for different item types.