| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hi all,
I was looking around the forums and I was wondering if there is any official clarification about the possibility to use Spring Attack & Stealth...in particular if a character has Hide in Plain Sight:
My understanding is that both Sniping and Diversion require specific actions (Standard for Diversion, Move for Sniping), but both seem to require such actions in order to retain the "not observed" requirement to use Stealth...and normally Stealth is "part of movement".
Since Hide in Plain Sight (or special Feats such as Hellcat Stealth) seems to remove the requirement of "not observed" (and the cover requirement too...which is related), the Sniping and Diversion actions seems no more necessary, because "not observed" is no longer a requirement for Stealth (only attack "breaks" Stealth, but after an attack, you are no more attacking).
I raised with my DM this fact, but, in lack of official rulings, he thinks cannot be done anyway.
The arguments I saw in some posts seems quite solid (and alongside with what I am saying above), but, as none comes from developers, none is "canon".
Anyone knows if somewhere there is some official ruling (from FAQ or contributors) about how Spring Attack & Stealth and Spring Attack, Stealth and Hide in Plain Sight interact?
Anyone knows if there is any chance that a general Stealth clarification may be published?
Thanks,
Guido
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Actually being observed still breaks stealth, but how you are observed matters. If it is by a precise sense such as vision or something such as blindsight which gives away your exact location, not just your square then you can't hide unless you have some ability that let you ignore it.
Also there are two versions of Hide in Plain sight. There is the ranger version, and the Shadowdancer version and they work differently.
The Shadowdancer version would allow you to make you stealth check as you retreat(after the attack) as long as the lighting conditions were correct.
Sniping requires you to immediately make the stealth check right after you attack, and since hide in plain sight allow you to hide in the open assuming the lighting conditions are correct then there is no reason why it wouldn't work with sniping.
Something doesn't need to come from a developer in order to be true, and there is no FAQ on your specific question.
Why is your GM saying they won't work together?
PS: The ranger version doesn't care about lighting conditions.
PS2: You don't need a diversion for sniping. You do however need to already be in a qualified/legal hiding place if you don't have something such as hide in plain sight. Basically you attack, and hide quickly, but you do it with a -20 to your stealth check. If you have hide in plain sight then you can just attack, and then hide without sniping. That way you can avoid the -20.
* You become visible at the end of movement unless you end your movement in cover or concealment.
It does only say that you can use the stealth skill while being observed. I could see that as meaning you can stand out in the open all day long or that you can only start in plain sight, but still need to move to cover/concealment.
That makes the ability not as good, but I wouldn't see be surprised to see it run that way.
The stealth rules with hide in plain sight are problematic.
As a GM, I suggest running it in whatever way works best for your table without being disruptive.
For me, that means not allowing 5ft steps to count in order to enable stealth checks.
OP for what it's worth stealth normally requires two things:
1) Being unobserved
2) Cover/concealment
Also, this is a pretty hotly debated topic. I don't have time to get into the full discussion right now, but this thread will probably blow up.
Why is your GM saying they won't work together?
I gave him a fully detailed rationale for why it should have worked and was along the lines of what you suggested, but he only sentenced that I cannot stealth while using Spring Attack.
...but ...emmh...he gave no rationale for it.
I really like to play in his campaign, but when a gray area seems to exist in rules he seems to prefer to "play safe" and opt for the most nerfing/punishing interpretation of the rule...
...and this is the reason I was looking (or hoping) for some official FAQ or answer to "patch up" this gray area... :-/
Skarm
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? If you are looking to use spring attack to move while hidden and attack the target it should work fine. You will be “visible” after the attack though. If you are looking to use spring attack to remain hidden the entire time it will not work. Stealth does not require a separate action, but instead is made as part of another action. In your case the action is using spring attack. The rules on stealth are quite clear that your stealth ends Immediately ends when you make an attack.
Spring attack is a full round action that allows you to move and attack and continue moving after the attack. You already made your stealth roll at the beginning of the spring attack. Once you attack your stealth immediately ends. Your extra movement after the attack is still part of the original action, not a separate action. Since you have already used stealth for this action you cannot do it again as part of the spring attack. Once you finish your spring attack your turn ends so you cannot make any further actions. Since you cannot perform any actions after spring attack you cannot make a stealth roll as part of that action.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? If you are looking to use spring attack to move while hidden and attack the target it should work fine. You will be “visible” after the attack though. If you are looking to use spring attack to remain hidden the entire time it will not work. Stealth does not require a separate action, but instead is made as part of another action. In your case the action is using spring attack. The rules on stealth are quite clear that your stealth ends Immediately ends when you make an attack.
Spring attack is a full round action that allows you to move and attack and continue moving after the attack. You already made your stealth roll at the beginning of the spring attack. Once you attack your stealth immediately ends. Your extra movement after the attack is still part of the original action, not a separate action. Since you have already used stealth for this action you cannot do it again as part of the spring attack. Once you finish your spring attack your turn ends so you cannot make any further actions. Since you cannot perform any actions after spring attack you cannot make a stealth roll as part of that action.
Right - conversely I'd argue that if he didn't care about being stealthed for the attack (some rogue options don't need stealth to sneak attack) he could make the stealth check as part of the spring attack action to cover being hidden again at the *end* of the movement.
That is - spring out - visible - hit - run - hidden. I think both ways are reasonable assuming you declared when you were attempting to hide before the check was made.
If you are looking to use spring attack to remain hidden the entire time it will not work. Stealth does not require a separate action, but instead is made as part of another action.
Well...in fact, the actual wording of the skill is "usually none" and not "part of another action" but "part of movement"...and Spring Attack involves "movement" before and after the attack.
You already made your stealth roll at the beginning of the spring attack.
Not necessarily: I might have made my Stealth roll even a lot of time before, since it lasts until I lose my Stealth...
Once you attack your stealth immediately ends.
On this all it is fine.
Your extra movement after the attack is still part of the original action, not a separate action.
Here the point is that the rules *never* mention "move action", but instead mention "movement":
There is a move action after the attack from Spring Attack?
*No*...because it is a full-attack action that allows you to "move both before and after the attack".
There is movement after the attack from Spring Attack?
*Yes*...because this is specifically mentioned in the feat description as one of the main benefits of the feat.
Since Stealth mention "movements" and not "move action", Stealth (which is a non-action part of movement) should be usable both before and after the attack...because there is movement both before and after the attack.
Since you have already used stealth for this action you cannot do it again as part of the spring attack.
As above...I don't have necessarily rolled Stealth in the round and Stealth is a "non-action" performed as part of "movement"...not as part of a "move action". If "movement" happens both before and after the attack, the Stealth could be performed in both moments (as it is a non-action according to the rules).
Once you finish your spring attack your turn ends so you cannot make any further actions. Since you cannot perform any actions after spring attack you cannot make a stealth roll as part of that action.
Stealth is a non-action according to the Skill description and it is part of "movement". Spring Attack allows "movement" after and before the attack...so I have no need to have further "actions" to perform Stealth, since I only need to have "movement" (which is not "move action").
To show the difference in wording between different rulings of canon material, I'll refer the weapon drawing ruling:
"If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."
As you see this would be a "free action combined with a regular move", which is what you suggest Stealth it is, but it is not like that...it is a "non-action part of movement" (and movement is generic, not "regular move")...
...if it was the same as the "free draw" for base attack bonus of +1 or higher, they would have worded the rule in the same way, but they didn't, so I think it is safe to assume that Stealth and weapon drawing are different...
Skarm
Since Stealth mention "movements" and not "move action", Stealth (which is a non-action part of movement) should be usable both before and after the attack...because there is movement both before and after the attack.
Wrong, it mentions both - don't only read rules that agree with you and ignore the parts that don't.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Some uses of stealth require a move action - I have to take back what I said earlier - there is no way to stealth after spring attack - that was my mistake, however there also is no stealth check as part of the spring attack either - you start the round in stealth and continue to be in stealth regardless of your movement until the attack - no check needed.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
The default rule in combat is unless you have somehow succeeded on a stealth check - the enemy is aware of you, even if you are concealed. I think a reasonable case could be made that a shadowdancer or ranger may be able to stealth as part of the spring attack movement - but not after the attack due to the rules on sniping indicating that a stealth after an attack roll requires a move action equivalent.
I think this is a worthy FAQ candidate.
Since Stealth mention "movements" and not "move action", Stealth (which is a non-action part of movement) should be usable both before and after the attack...because there is movement both before and after the attack.
Wrong, it mentions both - don't only read rules that agree with you and ignore the parts that don't.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
But here talks about Sniping, which is a specific use of Stealth and refers to ranged attack. Moreover the only two actions that allow re-Stealth are Create Diversion (standard action) and Sniping (move action), but these:
- Diversion:
"A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you."
So the main point is "avoid being observed".
- Sniping:
You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
And again, the main point is "avoid being observed" (obscured location).
So while I could agree with you that with "normal" Stealth this wouldn't be possible, it would be probably possible with a Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight or the Hellcat Stealth feat, since they remove the requirement of "not being observed" (with the ranger I don't know as I am not familiar of that variant of HIPS)...
I think this is a worthy FAQ candidate.
I agree totally... it is a very tricky topic...
Skarm
If you are not using stealth at the beginning of the attack I could see allowing stealth to be used after the attack. But that means you are not using stealth during the spring attack. The fact that you used stealth on an earlier does not mean you are still hidden. To attack when hidden requires stealth be used at the beginning of the spring attack.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Being observed is not the important factor, what is important is that you made an attack. The rules on stealth are quite clear, making an attack ends stealth. Spring attack simply allows you to make the attack during your move. Hide in plain sight does not allow you to move up and attack a target and still remain hidden. The fact you moved past the target is irrelevant.
The rules are quite clear on this. A GM can of course house rule differently, but at that point it is not a rules question.
Just to chime in - I don't allow multiple stealth attempts in the same round unless they are specifically sniping as I find no RAW that says you can. This is all about movement. If you hid in an ambush point and waited to Spring attack a passing opponent then you maintain stealth. If they don;t notice you and on your turn you spring attack and have a means to Hide in Plain Site, you can reroll a stealth at the end of your turn as long as it is logical (some kind of concealment, even a crowd, or dim or varied lighting - based on where you got HIPS from).
But I would not allow you to HIPS at the start of your round, Spring attacks, and roll a new HIPS stealth at the end. Your round would end with no stealth check - you already started the round with one.
For sniping, the very nature of such RANGED attacks is not to move - to maintain your position. You shoot, the target reacts to your snipe - you roll a stealth as a move action - bt the goal is NOT TO MOVE at all - to remain unobserved. You take the -20 and they either notice you or they don't. In you next round you could try to HIPS, but not in the same round as your snipe. The two are unrelated. Similarly if a person shoots unobserved then moves from the position they shot from, they are not sniping. They just shot and moved. Then I default back to not allowing two Stealth checks in the same round.
No RAW here, just opinion, but I think the concepts are pretty clear.
If you use stealth after the attack you are ok. Spring attack is not an attack despite the name. So by the rules you can Spring attack and then use stealth.
We cant really counter the GM unless we know why he said no. He could have said no just because he doesn't like the idea.
If you are not using stealth at the beginning of the attack I could see allowing stealth to be used after the attack. But that means you are not using stealth during the spring attack. The fact that you used stealth on an earlier does not mean you are still hidden. To attack when hidden requires stealth be used at the beginning of the spring attack.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Spring Attack it isn't an "attack", it is movement + attack + movement. The attack roll is made when there is the actual attack, not when you start the Spring Attack.
I have never questioned the "break" of Stealth.
I have questioned the interpretation that "movement" = "move action", which is not written anywhere on the manual.
In fact, on the same manual a situation that could felt similar (drawing weapon) was clearly stated to be "free action combined with a move action"...while Stealth is a non-action combined with "movement" (not "move action").
Being observed is not the important factor, what is important is that you made an attack. The rules on stealth are quite clear, making an attack ends stealth.
Yes...the rules are clear as I thought was clear when I wrote "only attack "breaks" Stealth", which is exactly what you have reported, but the point is:
I never challenged that point of the interpretation.
Spring attack simply allows you to make the attack during your move.
Well...that is the simplified explaination, but the actual
wording is:"As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed.
Spring Attack allow you to move both before and after the attack.
Since Stealth is a "non-action" part of "movement", there is not written anywhere that you cannot Stealth, attack (break stealth) and re-roll Stealth:
The problem with "normal characters" is that you cannot use Stealth while "observed", which requires the standard action for diversion (to become unobserved) or the move action for Sniping (to obscure your location and "return" unobserved)...but with HIPS, if the requirements are met, there is not this requirement.
Hide in plain sight does not allow you to move up and attack a target and still remain hidden. The fact you moved past the target is irrelevant.
Well...seems that you raising the "irrelevance card" only the parts of the rules that openly contradict your interpretation, because the rules write clearly:
Stealth is a non-action and is part of "movement".
The fact that you moved after the attack *is* movement!
The rules are quite clear on this. A GM can of course house rule differently, but at that point it is not a rules question.
The rules *aren't* quite clear...which is the main reason that I'd like to have an official interpretation:
We are suggesting two diametrically opposite interpretations based on the same text...if we want there is only one difference in what I am saying:
I was quoting the text of Stealth and Spring Attack...and I wasn't challenging your "break" Stealth part, which it is probably the only crystal-clear element of all of it...
You need to declare part of the text "irrelevant", because they don't match the interpretation you are giving.
However, in my opinion, it is necessary an official interpretation, because the differences in wording are often quite subtle and yes...
the red line between "relevant" and "irrelevant" is often quite blurred...
Skarm
If you use stealth after the attack you are ok. Spring attack is not an attack despite the name. So by the rules you can Spring attack and then use stealth.
We cant really counter the GM unless we know why he said no. He could have said no just because he doesn't like the idea.
I know...that is why I was hoping from an official interpretation... also because Stealth doesn't seem so much "clear" as a topic!
Skarm
If you use stealth after the attack you are ok. Spring attack is not an attack despite the name. So by the rules you can Spring attack and then use stealth.
We cant really counter the GM unless we know why he said no. He could have said no just because he doesn't like the idea.
I know...that is why I was hoping from an official interpretation... also because Stealth doesn't seem so much "clear" as a topic!
Skarm
Stealth has been figured out, and there are FAQ's on it. But like I said without knowing why we can't do much.