I've been looking how all the different knowledge skills can be used after realising I wasn't aware of many of their uses, and so I came across knowledge arcana that has:
Quote: Identify auras while using detect magic DC 15 + spell level
Identify a spell effect that is in place DC 20 + spell level
I've been reading up a little and I think I've found a few things but I'm not sure I understood it correctly.
1. What is the difference between an aura and a spell effect?
2. Does identify a spell effect that is in place mean I can use knowledge arcana to identify what buffs are active on an opponent?
I read that in order to identify spell effects I need to be able to see them. I also read that you can use Detect Magic (after 3 rounds of study) to see these spell effects.
Which brings me to my final questions:
3. Given that Arcane Sight allows the player to just see magical auras as if having studied them for 3 rounds with Detect Magic, does this allow the player to attempt a Knowledge Arcana check to identify the spell effect immediately?
4. And if so, am I correct in understanding that a player with Arcane Sight can attempt an Knowledge Arcana check for every spell effect active on an opponent they can see in the same round since Knowledge Arcana doesn't take an action - effectively allowing them to know the full list of spells active on an opponent as soon as they see them (provided they made their knowledge checks)?
Thanks guys!
Quote: 1. What is the difference between an aura and a spell effect? The aura is the school of magic involved (evocation, transmutation, necromancy, etc). The spell effect is what the spell actually does.
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Arcane Sight would allow someone to make a Knowledge Arcana check for every active spell effect on an opponent to determine what school and strength they have.
The second part only applies to spells with a visible effect, like determining that the wall in front of you is the result of a Wall of Stone spell as opposed to simply part of the dungeon, or that the glowing blue nimbus around that person is a Fire Shield (Cold) spell.
Someone under the effects of something like Cat's Grace being observed by someone with Arcane Sight would only give them opportunity to detect that they are currently affected by a Transmutaion spell of Faint strength.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
The way I understand it (and could be wrong) is that the check to determine spell effect in place is similar to the Spellcraft skill that allows a spell to be identified as its being cast. The Know Arcana check (DC 20 + Spell level) will allow identification of the spell after it has been cast (and thus has an effect in place).
In this way, the determination of an aura, as described with Cat's Grace above, may lead to a second check (with a higher DC) to determine the actual spell that aura emanates from.
Curious to learn if that interpretation is close to being correct as my party is in the middle of this very mechanic right now.
Curghann wrote: The second part only applies to spells with a visible effect I've seen this before, but I can't find anything in the official rules that says it needs to be visible. Do you know where I could find this?
Additionally, my question also revolves around the question: does seeing the spell aura clearly count as a visible effect?
DM DoctorEvil wrote: In this way, the determination of an aura, as described with Cat's Grace above, may lead to a second check (with a higher DC) to determine the actual spell that aura emanates from.
Right, this is the heart of my question. Because with Arcane Sight you'd see all auras. Does seeing the specific aura of a spell (knowing the school, strength and location) count as it being visible, and allow you to do a knowledge check to identify the spell effect? And does that give you the specific spell ("Mage armor") or only a general effect ("an abjuration spell that gives an armor bonus")?
An aura is just an aura. It does not let you know what spell was cast.
It would only let you know the school involved.
Brenden Falke wrote: Curghann wrote: The second part only applies to spells with a visible effect I've seen this before, but I can't find anything in the official rules that says it needs to be visible. Do you know where I could find this?
Additionally, my question also revolves around the question: does seeing the spell aura clearly count as a visible effect?
DM DoctorEvil wrote: In this way, the determination of an aura, as described with Cat's Grace above, may lead to a second check (with a higher DC) to determine the actual spell that aura emanates from.
Right, this is the heart of my question. Because with Arcane Sight you'd see all auras. Does seeing the specific aura of a spell (knowing the school, strength and location) count as it being visible, and allow you to do a knowledge check to identify the spell effect? And does that give you the specific spell ("Mage armor") or only a general effect ("an abjuration spell that gives an armor bonus")?
I believe it's likely a holdover from the verbiage used in 3.5 when this was covered under Spellcraft's usage:
d20SRD wrote:
15 + spell level When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required
20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
I realize that's 3.5's wording and not PF's, but in the absence of something more clarifying that's how my group plays it.
Identifying the aura's school and strength does not give you any further information. A learned caster could certainly make an educated guess as to what spells were in place, but just identifying the aura would not be sufficient to let you identify the exact spell.
I think I found conclusive evidence that you CAN use knowledge arcana on auras to determine the spell effect, from James Jacobs himself:
Quote: Quote: Must Knowledge (arcana) be used in conjunction with detect magic, i.e., the 3-round situation I posited above, or can a PC use it "on the fly" if he has reason to believe someone might be ensorcelled without taking the time to cast the spell? As long as the spell effects are visible, no. That's why identifying a spell that's being cast requires Spellcraft (since that assumes a knowledge of actual spellcasting, not just theory), while Knowledge (arcana) is used to know about spell effects already in place.
Many spell effects are not observable without detect magic, but for any effect that IS visible or observable, you wouldn't need detect magic to make an identification check.
The above post shows that for spells with a visual effect, you can immediately attempt to recognise the spell effect, while spells that do not must be made observable first through 3 rounds of detect magic, or spells that achieve the same like Arcane Sight.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote: An aura is just an aura. It does not let you know what spell was cast.
It would only let you know the school involved.
Right, but once one knows the auras exist, one can make a further Knowledge Arcana check to determine the spell effect(s) (btw, I would never name the spell outright if such a check is successful, only describe the effect, many astute wizards might be able to guess it from that).
As Mr Jacobs acknowledges above, visible effects may be checked without knowing the aura. Unseen effects wouldn't be checked w/o Detect Magic (or similar effect) revealing their presence.
I would suggest that Arcane Sight makes otherwise unseen auras visible, and thus negates the need to spend the Detect Magic time finding them.
Nothing says you can make knowledge checks based in auras to identify a spell.
You need greater arcane sight.
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