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Great. Let me know when the room is defined as an anti magic area.
As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS* triggers the autodamage provision.
Dianose disease for example is a spell effect that provides a bonus to treat disease. Antiplague is a an alchemical *effect* that provides a bonus to saves.
It's the effect not the source, the mod specifically instructs. And you can see that clearly, in the use of alchemical items to boost spells. For example, using Antiplague as a additional element for heroes feast extends the alchemical bonus for 12 hours
As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS* triggers the autodamage provision.
Magic and mundane are not similar. This is an easy distinction.
Couple that with Amenopheus's warning being all about magic only, and it's even easier to make the distinction. Sorry if your GM didn't pick up on that.
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Great. Let me know when the room is defined as an anti magic area.
As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS* triggers the autodamage provision.
Dianose disease for example is a spell effect that provides a bonus to treat disease. Antiplague is a an alchemical *effect* that provides a bonus to saves.
It's the effect not the source, the mod specifically instructs. And you can see that clearly, in the use of alchemical items to boost spells. For example, using Antiplague as a additional element for heroes feast extends the alchemical bonus for 12 hours
By that reasoning Bat Guano is magical since you need it for Fireball.
And adding your Constitution Bonus to your Fortitude save would also trigger it.
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Alchemist extracts are the definition of magical draughts. Alchemical items are not. They function in an antimagic field.
Great and if the room had been listed as an anti Magic affect your comment would be relevant.
But it's not it's listed as"Amenopheus warns them that the ritual’s nature means
casting spells, activating items, or even consuming magical
draughts could have dangerous side effects"
*Or similar effects.* rather deceptive to leave out the most important words.
You can use a channel affect to provide a supernatural bonus to saves for disease.
You can use an alchemical effect to provide a bonus to saves for disease.
You can activate an item to provide a bonus to saves for disease.
But in all three cases the effects are similar, and should trigger the auto damage provisions.
If you rule they do not you are just further revealing an anti-caster bias, which the author already confirmed twice previously.
Once when he said the intent was to prevent buffing prior to the final combat,
And the second time when he said that he would have a buffed character lose one or two rounds returning to the combat.
When the words in the mod Say activating an item can trigger the auto damage, it is very difficult for a GMs to make a rational decision on what is and what is not excluded.
Unless of course your intent is just to hose casters. Then you might as well just say so clearly.
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As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS* triggers the autodamage provision.Magic and mundane are not similar. This is an easy distinction.
Couple that with Amenopheus's warning being all about magic only, and it's even easier to make the distinction. Sorry if your GM didn't pick up on that.
I'm the ref. And we ignored alchemical bonuses for the purposes of calculating the auto damage.
But the auto dmg isn't the point.
Rules wise in my opinion you are wrong.
The sources are different the effects are identical.
If you are going to take liberties with the rules, you need to be far clearer as to what triggers and what does not, than "or similar effects"
My point is is this mod is deliberately anticaster; that it takes liberties with the rules, that it does so in ways that sets up huge table variations; and that it has no rules justification for the mechanic.
IMO, this mod needs a warning as to difficulty, and one more edit to fix errors.
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Rules wise in my opinion you are wrong.
The sources are different the effects are identical.
/me shrugs
If there is a sane & plausible interpretation of the rule, but you insist on using the harshest/meanest interpretation, then of course the module will appear to be more difficult. That's not the module's fault, though.
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Great. Let me know when the room is defined as an anti magic area.
As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS*
By that reasoning Bat Guano is magical since you need it for Fireball.
And adding your Constitution Bonus to your Fortitude save would also trigger it.
Nonsense.
I stand by my previous points: if you were saying This only affects Magic you are setting up a challenge that is disproportionately and unfairly difficult for casters playing this mod;
And if your position isnt that it only affects casters, there is no logical basis to determine what is and what isn't affected.
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Weird how we don't see people complaining that a scenario is "anti-martial" when there's an enemy with high DR, high AC, high HP, invisibility, or Flight.
People only seem to get up in arms when the casters have challenges tailored to them.
I'm complaining as a ref, not a caster.
And when the mod comes out that invents whole new rules so that a martial can't use weapons or armor, I'll complain then too.
And when the mod comes out that invents whole new rules so that a martial can't use weapons or armor, I'll complain then too.
That product does exist. It's the module with the blood caterpillars on the cover. I can't recall the name. It...
We were all fine with that, so it seems like a module to diminish casters is about due.
I believe we also had a module that ruins things for the psychic or horror classes -- it's the recent one that has a lot of spirits, but also is immune to the mind-affecting powers of most of the horror classes.
Looks like this module/scenario is just one in a long line of products intended to strip away powers. Nothing new.
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And when the mod comes out that invents whole new rules so that a martial can't use weapons or armor, I'll complain then too.That product does exist. It's the module with the blood caterpillars on the cover. I can't recall the name. It...
** spoiler omitted **
We were all fine with that, so it seems like a module to diminish casters is about due.
I believe we also had a module that ruins things for the psychic or horror classes -- it's the recent one that has a lot of spirits, but also is immune to the mind-affecting powers of most of the horror classes.
Looks like this module/scenario is just one in a long line of products intended to strip away powers. Nothing new.
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Nonsense.Great. Let me know when the room is defined as an anti magic area.
As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS*
By that reasoning Bat Guano is magical since you need it for Fireball.
And adding your Constitution Bonus to your Fortitude save would also trigger it.
Exactly.
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Great. Let me know when the room is defined as an anti magic area.
As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS* triggers the autodamage provision.
I would say you cannot seriously be saying that the determining factor is what the items do and not what the items are, but I see from your follow ups that you are. That is insane, and I choose to use the interpretation that does not make the situation even more hostile than it already is. Judging by your comment on not calculating the use of alchemical items in the damage, I see that you agree with me.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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And when the mod comes out that invents whole new rules so that a martial can't use weapons or armor, I'll complain then too.That product does exist. It's the module with the blood caterpillars on the cover. I can't recall the name. It...
** spoiler omitted **
We were all fine with that, so it seems like a module to diminish casters is about due.
I believe we also had a module that ruins things for the psychic or horror classes -- it's the recent one that has a lot of spirits, but also is immune to the mind-affecting powers of most of the horror classes.
Looks like this module/scenario is just one in a long line of products intended to strip away powers. Nothing new.
I really liked
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1Judging by your comment on not calculating the use of alchemical items in the damage, I see that you agree with me.Great. Let me know when the room is defined as an anti magic area.
As it is it states that *similar EFFECTS* triggers the autodamage provision.
And I will continue to argue that exposing an entire party to 5d per spell untyped with no save for the actions of one player is a bad mechanic.
And I will continue to argue that when you are talking about an effect that can wipe tables, no save that is a one-off mechanic that players have no prior exposure to that terms like 'or similar effects' should not be used.
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The module/scenario is just fine as far as "or similar effects" being used. This is the text around that:
The PCs can assist with the ritual, though Amenopheus warns them that the ritual’s nature means casting spells, activating items, or even consuming magical draughts could have dangerous side effects—he suspects any entity that can possess a sage jewel could as readily hijack another magic item or magical process, putting such bystanders at risk.
The danger is blatantly, obviously directed at exclusively magical things. If someone is trying to add in mundane items, they are having a reading comprehension problem. This is not a module text problem. Having the module say "or similar effects" is no excuse for getting this wrong -- it is flat-out beating the reader over the head with the clear expectation that magical effects are what can be hijacked, not anything else.
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The danger is blatantly, obviously directed at exclusively magical things. If someone is trying to add in mundane items, they are having a reading comprehension problem. This is not a module text problem. Having the module say "or similar effects" is no excuse for getting this wrong -- it is flat-out beating the reader over the head with the clear expectation that magical effects are what can be hijacked, not anything else.
activating items
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Amenopheus tells pcs that casting spells, spell like abilities, activate magic items and even drinking potions can disrupt the ritual.
So why do any of that to begin with?
If you do, all take 5d6 no save.
Then why keep doing it?
Even so, Amenopheus would probably kick you out for being ignorant wether or not you can mitigate it.
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Extracts are Supernatural.
Yeah. Sort of. They're a supernatural ability that allows you to create magical effects.
And *probably* the prohibition against magical draughts precludes alchemical extracts.
"Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects. In effect, an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract. When an alchemist creates an extract or bomb, he infuses the concoction with a tiny fraction of his own magical power—this enables the creation of powerful effects, but also binds the effects to the creator."
Exactly my point. If you're going to have a powerful mechanic in game, it should be clear what is and isn't included.
Example: Channel Endurance. IMO also qualifies.
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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** spoiler omitted **...
Its either targeting their weakest or strongest save. Also, for a scenario meant to mess with spellcasters its surprisingly benign. I have about a half a dozen or so characters who would shrug at the status effect and one spellcaster I have is flat out immune to practically every single spell.
OK. Howabout Feybloodline power, woodland stride.
It literally is defined as nonmagical.... How hard is this?
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MadScientist, the point I'm trying to make is its a non-magical ability conveyed by a magical power.
This is what it says for bloodline powers:
"Filled with magical power that screams for release, sorcery is not so much a calling as a blessing—or a curse. For some sorcerers, this arcane birthright manifests in subtle and carefully controlled ways, assisting in their manipulation of others or the pursuit of lofty goals. For others, it is wild and unpredictable, the primal and explosive lashing out of a power greater than themselves. Presented below are a number of bloodlines representing the mysterious origin of your sorcerer’s abilities."
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Bloodline is a mix of magical and extraordinary abilities. The abilities each bloodlines have their own designation for what they are. Some are magical, some are not.
Sure. So in your view, when the mod says similar effects, it means nothing.
Magical abilities are expressly prohibited, and you think "similar effects" is a throw away phrase.
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Bloodline is a mix of magical and extraordinary abilities. The abilities each bloodlines have their own designation for what they are. Some are magical, some are not.Sure. So in your view, when the mod says similar effects, it means nothing.
Magical abilities are expressly prohibited, and you think "similar effects" is a throw away phrase.
No, I read “similar effects” to mean exactly that, similar effects. I do not read it to mean whatever I want.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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for a scenario meant to mess with spellcasters its surprisingly benign.Virtually every review has marked this as extremely challenging....
It is but it really doesn't screw over spellcasters like you are complaining about. I was legitimately surprised having ran this a while ago but the fluff of her trying to actively screw over arcane spell casters really does play out mechanically. It also probably surprises me because most of my characters rely on supernatural abilities and I have no clue what distinguishes between the two????
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I really liked ** spoiler omitted **And when the mod comes out that invents whole new rules so that a martial can't use weapons or armor, I'll complain then too.That product does exist. It's the module with the blood caterpillars on the cover. I can't recall the name. It...
** spoiler omitted **
We were all fine with that, so it seems like a module to diminish casters is about due.
I believe we also had a module that ruins things for the psychic or horror classes -- it's the recent one that has a lot of spirits, but also is immune to the mind-affecting powers of most of the horror classes.
Looks like this module/scenario is just one in a long line of products intended to strip away powers. Nothing new.
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So all of us SUFFERING from between 2 and 5 negative levels would have been better off doing nothing during the ritual? What happens if no one participates?
If the PCs succeed at a number of skill checks equal to
two-thirds the number of PCs (round up), the ritual grants
the PCs a +2 bonus on all skill checks attempted in the
mindscapes later in this encounter. If the PCs succeed
at twice this number of checks, the ritual’s power is so
strong that Aryana Tahari is staggered during the first
round of the imminent combat.
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How are people suffering from 2-5 negative levels by the time the ritual arrives? You don't have to cast any spells for the duration of the crypt investigation, once you realized something was wrong with magic all the groups I've run and the one I played in stopped casting until we figured it out. Unless someone was daring and wanted to test if they were infected.
You should have made cures by the time the ritual is being performed, meaning you're at least cleansed with a massive bonus against additional exposure. Torch gives you a bag you can pull restoration scrolls out of if you need, and there's a wand of restoration as loot off the first fight. It takes 24 hours for the levels to become permanent unless I have my mechanics wrong, so 1 charge off that wand completely fixes someone.
Yes there's an anti-magic mechanic in this scenario, other scenarios punish other character types. But the scenario ensures it doesn't cripple you, provides ways to counter and protect against the effects, and has plenty to challenge the more martially inclined as well.
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My players heard the briefing and bought a scroll of Life Bubble, along with a stack of Antiplagues. Until that persistent contagion, I couldn't infect anyone.
The real negative levels, though, came from the memory machine. Even with multiple negative levels, that character still blew every skill check out of the water (phantom thief unchained rogue).
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Suede, the memory machine has the chance to inflict negative levels, and if the party does not realize what they have been infected with they could have trouble just from casting normal detect magics during the course of the investigation. They may also have bad luck attempting to remove the disease, especially if they have exhausted Torch's bag and do not have their own resources.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Suede, the memory machine has the chance to inflict negative levels, and if the party does not realize what they have been infected with they could have trouble just from casting normal detect magics during the course of the investigation. They may also have bad luck attempting to remove the disease, especially if they have exhausted Torch's bag and do not have their own resources.
There is also the one room. Hell that room is evil because if you figure out what it does you might want to use it despite the fact that it doesn't work.
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I dunno. People just saved the detect magics for later from what I've seen and used sleuthing to get by. Nobody every trusted the memory machine either, it was just too suspicious and even those who tried it after they saw the first dying memory they backed off.
Everyone just rode the disease until they found the scenario way to remove it. The trap room always wound up disabled before it could do anything, again because it was suspicious.
I guess experiences may vary, but the groups I took into that scenario were very careful.