Does a cold subtype creature retain vulnerability to fire when the Skeleton template is applied to it?


Rules Questions


Question does what it says on the tin. Consider for example a Frost Giant: as per the Skeleton template, the resulting skeletal Frost Giant would drop the giant subtype but retain the cold subtype. The cold subtype ordinarily confers cold immunity and vulnerability to fire to the resulting creature; however, in this very similar question it has been contested how and whether a subtype's Defensive Abilities and Weaknesses are conferred to a skeleton.

As this is a Rules Question, please limit responses to citations of official developer feedback, errata, published material, and unambiguously transferable rules-as-written.

The Concordance

I don't believe you're gonna find citations or errata for this question unfortunately.

We have two rules in direct conflict. Losing defensive abilities and maintaining a subtype which grants defensive abilities. If it were up to me, I'd say that you keep them.


Lets assume the two abilities don't cancel:

Immunity wrote:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources.
Vulnerability wrote:
A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type

You either reduce damage to zero and then multiply by x1.5 or multiply x1.5 and then reduce to zero.

Either way, vulnerability is a numerical multiplier and immunity reduces to zero.

If we were talking element infused templates:

Element Infused Creature wrote:
An element-infused creature loses any weakness dependent on its chosen element.

A cold vulnerable creature infused with elemental water clearly looses the cold vulnerability.

Curse, Vulnerability wrote:
The target becomes vulnerable to a single energy type, taking 50% more damage than normal from that energy type. If the target is immune or already vulnerable to the damage type, the curse has no effect. If the target has resistance to or protection from the energy type, apply the vulnerability before the resistance or protection.

Another clear precedent for Immunity trumping Vulnerability


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Lets assume the two abilities don't cancel:

Immunity wrote:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources.
Vulnerability wrote:
A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type

You either reduce damage to zero and then multiply by x1.5 or multiply x1.5 and then reduce to zero.

Either way, vulnerability is a numerical multiplier and immunity reduces to zero.

If we were talking element infused templates:

Element Infused Creature wrote:
An element-infused creature loses any weakness dependent on its chosen element.

A cold vulnerable creature infused with elemental water clearly looses the cold vulnerability.

Curse, Vulnerability wrote:
The target becomes vulnerable to a single energy type, taking 50% more damage than normal from that energy type. If the target is immune or already vulnerable to the damage type, the curse has no effect. If the target has resistance to or protection from the energy type, apply the vulnerability before the resistance or protection.

Another clear precedent for Immunity trumping Vulnerability

While that is true, that isn't the issue being debated at all. The issue is whether or not the immunity/vulnerability from the subtype would even transfer to the skeleton, or it it is dropped along with all other special defenses.

In D&D it was clear that the immunity/vulnerability was retained by looking at the example creatures (specifically, the skeleton red dragon). Pathfinder didn't include those examples, so it isn't as clear.


Jeraa wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Lets assume the two abilities don't cancel:

Immunity wrote:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources.
Vulnerability wrote:
A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type

You either reduce damage to zero and then multiply by x1.5 or multiply x1.5 and then reduce to zero.

Either way, vulnerability is a numerical multiplier and immunity reduces to zero.

While that is true, that isn't the issue being debated at all. The issue is whether or not the immunity/vulnerability from the subtype would even transfer to the skeleton, or it it is dropped along with all other special defenses.

And if it were the issue, I'll direct you to the Absolute Cold (Su) ability of Lunar Dragons as an example of immunity-piercing effects. A hypothetical creature that is both cold immune and vulnerable to cold would take 0% damage normally and 75% damage on a failed save.

Scarab Sages

Flashblade wrote:

Question does what it says on the tin. Consider for example a Frost Giant: as per the Skeleton template, the resulting skeletal Frost Giant would drop the giant subtype but retain the cold subtype. The cold subtype ordinarily confers cold immunity and vulnerability to fire to the resulting creature; however, in this very similar question it has been contested how and whether a subtype's Defensive Abilities and Weaknesses are conferred to a skeleton.

As this is a Rules Question, please limit responses to citations of official developer feedback, errata, published material, and unambiguously transferable rules-as-written.

That is your thread, being used as a supporting arguement for your thread. Are you looking for a specific answer that you are fishing for? Sounds like you are trying to manipulate the threads.

As skeleton template, you should keep any non-alignment subtypes, so you keep Giant and Cold subtypes when you make a frost giant into a skeleton.

Regarding vulnerability and immunity. They both apply, but look at the math. Provided a creature has both immunity and vulnerability, the same zero for damage will apply. If we add 50% to the damage, then reduce to zero, we have zero damage. If we reduce to zero, then add 50% to that zero, we still have zero. So no need for FAQs on that one.

I will note that having immunity doesn't mean you lose vulnerability, even if functionally, you ignore vulnerability. There are some abilities that negate immunity, and when they do, vulnerability would still apply. The ARG has an ifrit archetype that can reduce immunity to fire to mere fire resistance. If immunity is removed, the vulnerability would apply.


Flashblade wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Lets assume the two abilities don't cancel:

Immunity wrote:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources.
Vulnerability wrote:
A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type

You either reduce damage to zero and then multiply by x1.5 or multiply x1.5 and then reduce to zero.

Either way, vulnerability is a numerical multiplier and immunity reduces to zero.

While that is true, that isn't the issue being debated at all. The issue is whether or not the immunity/vulnerability from the subtype would even transfer to the skeleton, or it it is dropped along with all other special defenses.
And if it were the issue, I'll direct you to the Absolute Cold (Su) ability of Lunar Dragons as an example of immunity-piercing effects. A hypothetical creature that is both cold immune and vulnerable to cold would take 0% damage normally and 75% damage on a failed save.

This is actually a wierd interaction of the multiplying rules. it may be +50% -50% for net normal

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I always think the vulnerability and resistances go with the flesh and internal organs which have adapted to the environment.
Once they become a pile of walking bones anything that went with the flesh is gone.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Does a cold subtype creature retain vulnerability to fire when the Skeleton template is applied to it? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.