Does a fire subtype creature retain fire immunity when the Skeleton template is applied to it?

[Flashblade]

Question is exactly what it says on the tin. Citation will be needed, as similar unresolved questions have recently been asked on /r/Pathfinder_RPG and RPG Stack Exchange. I'm posting here on the official Paizo board in hopes of finding a clear determination of the rules-as-written. The ambiguity arises from interpretation of the Skeleton template (Bestiary, pg. 251) concerning defensive abilities conferred by the fire subtype.

If you really feel like being a hero, you might also check out those questions and answer the unresolved issues being debated.

Thanks in advance!

[Cyrad]

No, because the Type heading of the template says "It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.." Later in the text, the Defensive abilities heading says "A skeleton loses the base creature’s defensive abilities." Since the defensive abilities line is an explicit exception, the skeleton template overwrites the defensive abilities gained by the fire subtype.

[Flashblade]

Cyrad wrote:

No, because the Type heading of the template says "It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.." Later in the text, the Defensive abilities heading says "A skeleton loses the base creature’s defensive abilities." Since the defensive abilities line is an explicit exception, the skeleton template overwrites the defensive abilities gained by the fire subtype.

Can you provide a published example of a fire subtype creature with the Skeleton template to verify?

[Pizza Lord]

It retains the (fire) subtype as per the rules for the template.

Creating a skeleton wrote:

Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind (such as giant).

As (fire) is neither an alignment subtype (good, evil, etc.) nor an indication of creature type (giant, elf, reptilian, etc.) the subtype is maintained. Immunity to fire (and vulnerability to cold) is conferred by the subtype. The statement in the defensive abilities about losing defenses is for general and broad abilities that aren't already covered elsewhere (like the type and subtype which is handled in the quote above). You wouldn't immediately remove any defenses and immunities applies for becoming Undead type because the Defensive abilitie listing doesn't specify those would you?

For example, a Young Adult Red Dragon would become Undead (fire) and would have both immunity to fire (from its subtype) and immunity to cold (for being a skeleton, which would overcome the fire subtypes normal vulnerability).
Similarly, a White Dragon Burning Skeleton would keep its (cold) subtype and gain immunity to fire as per normal.

Flashblade wrote:

Can you provide a published example of a fire subtype creature with the Skeleton template to verify?

They don't seem to have many examples in Pathfinder and the OGC seems to cut most. There is one in D20 SRD for a Young Adult Red Dragon. Yes, it's 3.5 but nothing about the types, defenses, or anything else (barring HD or stat adjustments) is really different between the two, so this isn't a difference in game systems, just a predilection for not using examples in Pathfinder.

[Flashblade]

Is there perhaps a published example of some other combination of subtype and template that might illustrate this issue?

[Canadian Bakka]

In the Bestiary 2, the Red Wyrm Ravener is both undead and has the fire subtype. That being said, it should be pointed out that the Ravener template, while similar in some ways, is not the same as the Skeletal template.

I think that, by RAW, the description of the Skeletal template under the Type section, as Pizza Lord pointed out, should allow a creature to retain any elemental subtypes it had prior to the addition of the template.

I hope the Red Wyrm Ravener example helps.

CB

[Jeraa]

Canadian Bakka wrote:

In the Bestiary 2, the Red Wyrm Ravener is both undead and has the fire subtype. That being said, it should be pointed out that the Ravener template, while similar in some ways, is not the same as the Skeletal template.

I think that, by RAW, the description of the Skeletal template under the Type section, as Pizza Lord pointed out, should allow a creature to retain any elemental subtypes it had prior to the addition of the template.

I hope the Red Wyrm Ravener example helps.

CB

Unfortunately, it does not help. The ravener template doesn't strip the defensive abilities from the base creature. That is the issue Flashblade is having.

By a strict reading, some people assume that the immunity to fire (from the fire subtype) is removed when becoming a skeleton, as all of the base creatures defensive abilities are lost. It doesn't say "loses all defensive abilities, except those gained from subtype". That is the issue that some people have. The result would be still having the fire subtype, but losing the immunity it grants. Which is theoretically possible. The creatures with the fire subtype do have immunity to fire listed in the defense section of the stat block, so it is considered a defensive ability.

3.5 D&D was clear, because there was an example creature that showed exactly what happened (As Pizza Lord said). Paizo, in their "infinite wisdom", removed all those example creatures so there is no clarifying examples.

Unfortunately, there are no Pathfinder examples. There aren't that many templates to begin with, and even fewer that strip defensive abilities. And most (all?) of the example creatures used in the templates don't have the fire subtype (or similar) to see what is retained.

As 3.5 showed, the fire immunity is retained. But Pathfinder isn't 3.5, so whether or not it still applies (it should) can be debated.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Pretty sure the elemental subtype would be retained (as written). The main thing for the Skeleton template is that is does require a target that has a skeleton, so it won't work on fire elementals, since they are just made of fire. Should work with a dragon just fine.

Looking at your link:

Flashblade wrote:

Question is exactly what it says on the tin. Citation will be needed, as similar unresolved questions have recently been asked on /r/Pathfinder_RPG

Should add the Mindless Trait, by having "INT -" it should have that automatically. The Natural Armor Value should change to +2 instead adding the natural armor the that of the existing create, as already mentioned by another poster in that thread and they are most certainly correct. Everything else looks good as far as I can tell.

[deuxhero]

Well I can find a skeleton nightmare in one of the APs, but to my surprise Nightmares are not only not [Fire] they have no resistance to fire at all.

As for weirdness on what is lost during the skeleton template process, I'd like to note that in Pathfinder didn't update the skeletons template to account for how it changed stats block format compared to 3.5. In PF skeletons keep fast healing (under HP but the changes to that section aren't relevent, they'd keep regeneration but no con kills that), SLAs (which are under spell-like abilities that aren't touched at all) and racial spellcasting like that of a dragon or Nymph (Now under spellcasting, which also isn't touched. The mental score adjustments stop a lot of undead casters though). There's a lot weirder stuff than skeletons keeping fire and being immune to fire and cold (which a large number of Outsiders already are).