Any use for odd numbers?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

As you are guaranteed to get odd numbers during character creation (you either put a point into your theme Attribute, giving you 9 points elsewhere or you don't and your theme Attribute is the odd) is there any benefit to it ever?

There doesn't seem to be a way to get +1 to a stat and thus that number will never get up to an even. Even with Attribute levelling through character advancement. Because a 16 and a 17 both become 18, and any lower pairing takes the same number of steps to even out. Is this an oversight or am I missing something?


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It bugs me too, the only mechanical benefit I can find is mercenary theme, 6th level ability. Your strength counts as 1 higher for the purpose of encumberence there for 11 strength counts as 12 and you can still make use of the better backpack.


Mercenary works well with oddnumbered strength but thatsbthe only thing I can think of.


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There are also several feats with odd ability score prerequisites. Setting an initial ability score so that you qualify for one of those feats is a good use for that extra point.


Feats that have ability score prerequisites generally require odd-numbered ability scores for their benefits, so 14 vs. a 15 or a 12 vs. a 13 could be the difference between not qualifying and qualifying for a feat.

Also, when dealing with ability score damage or penalties, an odd-numbered ability score can act as a minor buffer for how much of a penalty you're taking.


once you are at 17 or higher in a stat you are going to wind up with levels that are odd as you boost them with your attribute point upgrades every 5 levels. So in a large way their use is they get you that needed step closer to the next bonus.

But most of the stats other than strength don't give much benefit for sitting at odd numbers other than as a stepping stone to the next even number level.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
kaid wrote:

once you are at 17 or higher in a stat you are going to wind up with levels that are odd as you boost them with your attribute point upgrades every 5 levels. So in a large way their use is they get you that needed step closer to the next bonus.

But most of the stats other than strength don't give much benefit for sitting at odd numbers other than as a stepping stone to the next even number level.

I probably wasn't clear. I was referring specifically to the points at character creation. Those don't ever get you one step closer because of how attribute levelling works.

E.G I have an 10 and an 11

10>12>14>16>18
11>13>15>17>18

No matter where you start you might as well have had one less and been even, except for the incredibly limited scope of some feats.


Once you get an ability score up to 16 or 17, the next increase will to it will set it to 18 -- so what you want to do is make your odd score one that you can benefit from at early levels, whether by a slight increase to carrying capacity for strength or by just barely qualifying for a feat with an ability score prerequisite.

Silver Crusade

Another benefit I've figured out is getting you a little boost to your main ability score at low levels. If you put a 17 in a score, and then buy the mk1 upgrade to boost that ability score by 2--which at item lvl 3 you could buy as early as 2nd level in most cases--it will then be at 19. At lvl 5 you will then boost it up to a 20.

Obviously, you would get the same end result if you put a 16 into that score and waited to buy the upgrade until 5th level, but it would net you an extra point for a few of the low levels when one resolve point would be a noticeable difference.

Also, this does depend on your reading of the personal upgrades--I haven't found anything that says specifically one way or the other whether the upgrades count as a permanent upgrade to your score as far as that 16-17 threshold for your increase goes, but my assumption is that it does.


Dazz wrote:
Also, this does depend on your reading of the personal upgrades--I haven't found anything that says specifically one way or the other whether the upgrades count as a permanent upgrade to your score as far as that 16-17 threshold for your increase goes, but my assumption is that it does.

It doesn't. See under step 1 on page 26: "If a chosen score is 17 or higher (excluding ability increases from personal upgrades—see page 212), it increases permanently by 1."

Grand Lodge

It helps against ability drain as well!


P.26, Step 1: Apply Any Ability Increases wrote:
If a chosen score is 17 or higher (excluding ability increases from personal upgrades-see page 212).

They do not count. There is no advantage to starting with 17 compared to 16, outside very minor things such as your carrying capacity before being overburdened.

An odd ability score is useful mostly for feat prerequisites, as mentioned already. Heavy Armor and Heavy Weapon Proficiency as feats require 13 strength, the Mobility feat chain requires 13-15 dexterity depending on the feat. Technomantic Dabbler and Connection Inkling require 15 int or wis respectively, and the psychic power feats require 11, 13, and 15 charisma. And there are others as well. An odd point can let you grab any of these a little earlier than you would otherwise; starting with 11 in Intelligence, for instance, would let you grab Technomantic Dabbler at level 11 with no more investment than a +2 at 5 and 10.

So odd points are useful for feat prerequisites keyed off a secondary or tertiary stat.

Grand Lodge

My first thought was Con to at least get another HP before death, but Starfinder changes the way negative HP works. I thought Str didn't either, but technically, it slightly increases the amount of bulk you can carry while encumbered. It doesn't prevent you from becoming encumbered (Str/2) though.


Luthorne wrote:

Feats that have ability score prerequisites generally require odd-numbered ability scores for their benefits, so 14 vs. a 15 or a 12 vs. a 13 could be the difference between not qualifying and qualifying for a feat.

Also, when dealing with ability score damage or penalties, an odd-numbered ability score can act as a minor buffer for how much of a penalty you're taking.

Feats that have ability score prerequisites ALWAYS require odd-numbered ability scores. Since the dawn of d20 in 2000 with D&D 3rd edition. This was very intentional, to give value to those odd scores.

If you find a feat the requires an even ability score, it is either a misprint, or third party from a creator who doesn't know better.


Paizo does occasionally have even ability score requirements for feats, but they are rather rare.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Luthorne wrote:

Feats that have ability score prerequisites generally require odd-numbered ability scores for their benefits, so 14 vs. a 15 or a 12 vs. a 13 could be the difference between not qualifying and qualifying for a feat.

Also, when dealing with ability score damage or penalties, an odd-numbered ability score can act as a minor buffer for how much of a penalty you're taking.

Feats that have ability score prerequisites ALWAYS require odd-numbered ability scores. Since the dawn of d20 in 2000 with D&D 3rd edition. This was very intentional, to give value to those odd scores.

If you find a feat the requires an even ability score, it is either a misprint, or third party from a creator who doesn't know better.

It's rare, but there's Arcane Talent off the top of my head. Edit: Though that is, of course, Pathfinder.


Luthorne wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Luthorne wrote:

Feats that have ability score prerequisites generally require odd-numbered ability scores for their benefits, so 14 vs. a 15 or a 12 vs. a 13 could be the difference between not qualifying and qualifying for a feat.

Also, when dealing with ability score damage or penalties, an odd-numbered ability score can act as a minor buffer for how much of a penalty you're taking.

Feats that have ability score prerequisites ALWAYS require odd-numbered ability scores. Since the dawn of d20 in 2000 with D&D 3rd edition. This was very intentional, to give value to those odd scores.

If you find a feat the requires an even ability score, it is either a misprint, or third party from a creator who doesn't know better.

It's rare, but there's Arcane Talent off the top of my head. Edit: Though that is, of course, Pathfinder.

The only reason that feat has an ability score prereq is for the spellcasting. You have to have a Cha 10 to cast 0-level spells. It isn't the same as a normal ability score prereq.

The Exchange

There are currently twenty feats that require a minimum stat score that is odd numbered.

Ability drain/damage is a thing in this game. The extra point can mean the difference between dead and just catatonic.

carrying capacity - it's a balancing factor in the game mechanics, but I think it's often overlooked.


The +1 from themes can definitely help round out a rolled character. But that only applies to specific games.


Wrath wrote:
There are currently twenty feats that require a minimum stat score that is odd numbered.

Interesting. That number sounded low to me, so I figured Paizo had made an effort to reduce the number of feats with ability score requirements. Nope. The PF CRB has 23 feats with ability score prerequisites. I'll be darned. Always seemed more prevalent.

The Exchange

Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Wrath wrote:
There are currently twenty feats that require a minimum stat score that is odd numbered.
Interesting. That number sounded low to me, so I figured Paizo had made an effort to reduce the number of feats with ability score requirements. Nope. The PF CRB has 23 feats with ability score prerequisites. I'll be darned. Always seemed more prevalent.

That's about 1/4 of the feats though. A pretty sizeable chunk that you could miss out on if you haven't got the stats.


we just house ruled an 11 point build instead of 10. my players are used to a 28 point pathfinder build (a bit of high i know)
so 1 point in starfinder will not hurt much. i just make the encounters a bit harder.


korinthmalar wrote:

we just house ruled an 11 point build instead of 10. my players are used to a 28 point pathfinder build (a bit of high i know)

so 1 point in starfinder will not hurt much. i just make the encounters a bit harder.

It's your game. However, I would caution against this. The rate of increase with levels is very generous.

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