Spiritualist Phantom Questions

[Markov Spiked Chain]

I'm still a little unclear on some phantom stuff, and can't find any threads clarifying.

Spiritualist wrote:

A fully manifested phantom is treated as a summoned creature from the Ethereal Plane, except it is not sent back to the Ethereal Plane until it is reduced to a negative amount of hit points equal to or greater than its Constitution score.

...
Whenever her manifested phantom takes enough damage to send it back to the Ethereal Plane, as a reaction to the damage, the spiritualist can sacrifice any number of her hit points without using an action. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage dealt to the phantom.

This reads to me like when the Phantom hits 0 HP, it goes unconscious, with no way to sacrifice HP to keep it up? You can only sacrifice when it's at -Con? I've certainly seen it played differently, sacrificing HP to keep the phantom acting.

Phantom wrote:

The chart says they get 2 skill points per HD.

The Skill section says "Phantoms with Intelligence scores above the base value modify these totals as normal (a phantom gains a number of skill ranks equal to 2 + its Intelligence modifier per Hit Die)."

I assume the chart takes precedence? As written, it looks like improving the Phantom to 8 Int would decrease it to 1 SP/HD.

Ethereal wrote:

Unlike other incorporeal creatures, an incorporeal phantom can’t attack corporeal creatures, except to deliver touch-attack spells using the deliver touch spell ability.

Is there any limitation on other interactions with corporeal creatures? Can my phantom buff allies with wands, Aid Another, or cast spells on them from a ring of spell storing?

Phantom Fighter Feat wrote:

Unlike other incorporeal creatures, an incorporeal phantom can’t attack corporeal creatures, except to deliver touch-attack spells using the deliver touch spell ability.

Ghost Touch wrote:

A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

I actually found a thread on this, but no resolution. Has there been any clarification whether this feat allows an incorporeal phantom to attack corporeals or not? I've seen this played as allowing normal attacks from an Incorporeal phantom.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Yes, the phantom can bleed out and you can prevent it from dying outright (which prevents you from summoning it later that day).

Regarding skill points per HD, yes, increasing their INT would mean less skill points until you got their INT mod to a positive Bonus.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Ethereal wrote:

Unlike other incorporeal creatures, an incorporeal phantom can’t attack corporeal creatures, except to deliver touch-attack spells using the deliver touch spell ability.

Is there any limitation on other interactions with corporeal creatures? Can my phantom buff allies with wands, Aid Another, or cast spells on them from a ring of spell storing?

This quote is talking about the differences between "normal" incorporeal creatures and the incorporeal phantom. Additional rules for Incorporeal creatures can be found under that rule's entry in the CRB.

So to answer your question, no you can't aid another in combat to grant bonus attacks/AC since you can't attack the target (unless it is also incorporeal). You could aid with skill checks that don't require being able to touch the ally.

Regarding wands and other object activation, you can't hold or wear them while incorporeal. They just pass through you and fall to the ground. If you had a magic object/weapon which could specifically be used by incorporeal creatures (like a ghost touch weapon), then it would be useable.

Regarding the Phantom Fighter feat, your quote is not of that feat. Here. This feat only affects the Natural weapons (aka the slams) of your phantom. So while incorporeal, this would have no effect since you can already deal full damage to other incorporeal creatures. This feat would allow your Phantom to deal full damage while in Corporeal form when attacking incorporeal enemies (which would otherwise Deal half damage as a magic attack, or no damage if non-magical).

Regarding Ghost Touch weapons and armor, the advantage for a Corporeal creature is in being able to deal full damage to incorporeal enemies or fully protect against them. The advantage for an Incorporeal creature is that the weapon or armor can be held and used while they are in Incorporeal form (though this doesn't allow the weapon to pass through objects, so while wielding a ghost touch weapon, an incorporeal creature can't pass through walls without dropping the item).

Ghost Touch does not grant the phantom the ability to attack corporeal opponents because their inability to do so is their own special rule, and not a normal limitation of being incorporeal or something the ghost touch property fixes.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Quote:

Regarding wands and other object activation, you can't hold or wear them while incorporeal. They just pass through you and fall to the ground. If you had a magic object/weapon which could specifically be used by incorporeal creatures (like a ghost touch weapon), then it would be useable.

My understanding is that you can give the phantom an item, and it will keep the item when it goes incorporeal?

If it helps, say I use Imbue with Spell Ability, so there's no item to worry about. Can the phantom affect an ally with magic/ a spell?

[Murdock Mudeater]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Quote:

Regarding wands and other object activation, you can't hold or wear them while incorporeal. They just pass through you and fall to the ground. If you had a magic object/weapon which could specifically be used by incorporeal creatures (like a ghost touch weapon), then it would be useable.

My understanding is that you can give the phantom an item, and it will keep the item when it goes incorporeal?

If it helps, say I use Imbue with Spell Ability, so there's no item to worry about. Can the phantom affect an ally with magic/ a spell?

No, they cannot hold the item while Incorporeal (unless the item has a special ability that allows it to be held by incorporeal creatures).

As for granting the ability to cast for phantoms, they can affect allies with magic/spells, but they can only attack corporeal creatures via the deliver touch attacks ability (which means they can't be the caster for touch attacks spells). This is because their special rules, as quoted above, prevent them from doing so.

If they can cast spells or spell like abilities, they can do so provided the spell didn't require an attack roll. So they could cast burning hands or bless or magic missile, but not acid splash or shocking grasp. Their spiritualist could cast shocking grasp and they could deliver it via the deliver touch spells abililty.

A normal incorporeal creature could cast attack spells that affected corporeal creatures, this is a unique rule for the phantom.

And if you can find an exception for phatoms, you are welcome to use it. This is just the general rules for phantoms. Specific certainly trumps general.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Thanks for your take on affecting allies with non-attack spells.

But I think you're reading in a lot of extra restrictions on items. I don't see anything that indicates that when a creature becomes incorporeal, all items it's holding drop. And the phantom rules certainly seem to indicate that incorporeal phantoms can carry magic items:

Spiritualist wrote:

Fully manifested phantoms can wear armor magic items [see FAQ] and use items (though not wield weapons) appropriate to their forms. Any items worn, carried, or held by a phantom are dropped when the phantom returns to the spiritualist’s consciousness, and must be retrieved and donned anew if the phantom wishes to use them when it fully manifests in the future.

("Fully manifested" includes incorporeal or ethereal.)

[KingOfAnything]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Thanks for your take on affecting allies with non-attack spells.

But I think you're reading in a lot of extra restrictions on items. I don't see anything that indicates that when a creature becomes incorporeal, all items it's holding drop. And the phantom rules certainly seem to indicate that incorporeal phantoms can carry magic items:

Spiritualist wrote:

Fully manifested phantoms can wear armor magic items [see FAQ] and use items (though not wield weapons) appropriate to their forms. Any items worn, carried, or held by a phantom are dropped when the phantom returns to the spiritualist’s consciousness, and must be retrieved and donned anew if the phantom wishes to use them when it fully manifests in the future.

("Fully manifested" includes incorporeal or ethereal.)

I think you missed a clause there. The phrase "appropriate to their forms" applies to incorporeal or ectoplasmic as well. Corporeal items and weapons are not appropriate for an incorporeal creature.

[Ascalaphus]

Items don't become incorporeal because the phantom becomes incorporeal. You'd need Ghost Touch items for that. So they'd just fall to the ground. Just like when you put the phantom back into your mind.

That said, I don't entirely agree with Murdock's interpretation of the "incorporeal phantoms can't attack" clause.

I think he's stretching it beyond its (probable) original intent. See, most incorporeal creatures have some kind of attack with which they can attack corporeal creatures - usually negative energy touch attacks. Phantoms don't have that. And their slams aren't meant to work while incorporeal (that would make things too easy). So the off-the-shelf phantom can't attack while incorporeal unless the spiritualist provides him with a touch spell as payload.

There's the feat to give your phantom ghost touch, which you might think would let the incorporeal phantom attack corporeal foes. But the feat's flavor text makes it pretty clear it's intended to be used by ectoplasmic phantoms against incorporeal enemies. And again, having your incorporeal minion that can just attack people at will while making it phenomenally hard to hit back - that's just too much for a feat.

But I could imagine a phantom getting a feat to cast its own touch spells, and I don't think the "can't attack while incorporeal" rule was meant to go so far as to stop that. I think it was just intended for the off-the-shelf case.

[Bloodrealm]

You're correct that it's far too much for a Feat: It's the Hatred Emotional Focus' 17th level ability, and even then it can only do so on one designated target at a time.