They don't have perception either. Not sure why either is missing.
If you really want to be a stealthy soldier, just use the Skill Synergy feat to make it a class skill. It's not like Soldiers are really hurting on the feat front.
Actually these are exactly the skills I took skill synergy for on my android dex based soldier.
I plan on going Operative(stealth) after this so it is not a big deal. But it is very strange, IMHO.
The main reason (Sol(blitz) then Op(Stealth) is I did some math and 1 level of Soldier(blitz) is worth about 9 feats vs strait Operative (Stealth), ie Heavy Armor, Long Arm, Advanced Melee, Heavy Weapons, Gernades, +2 For, +2 Will, +4 Init (1 and 1/2 feat or 1+) and +10 Move= about 9+ feats for an operative. Very good deal and you get +1 BAB also. IMHO that is worth a delayed level in a lot of stuff.
Thanks again.
MDC
An operative doesn't really have a use for most of those feats. None of their trick attacks or multiattacks work with advanced melee weapons, longarms, heavy weapons, or grenades, and since they want to be mobile heavy armor isn't really a good idea. Plus operatives already get to be the fastest characters in the game, so the speed isn't really relevant.
An operative doesn't really have a use for most of those feats. None of their trick attacks or multiattacks work with advanced melee weapons, longarms, heavy weapons, or grenades, and since they want to be mobile heavy armor isn't really a good idea. Plus operatives already get to be the fastest characters in the game, so the speed isn't really relevant.I plan on going Operative(stealth) after this so it is not a big deal. But it is very strange, IMHO.
The main reason (Sol(blitz) then Op(Stealth) is I did some math and 1 level of Soldier(blitz) is worth about 9 feats vs strait Operative (Stealth), ie Heavy Armor, Long Arm, Advanced Melee, Heavy Weapons, Gernades, +2 For, +2 Will, +4 Init (1 and 1/2 feat or 1+) and +10 Move= about 9+ feats for an operative. Very good deal and you get +1 BAB also. IMHO that is worth a delayed level in a lot of stuff.
Thanks again.
MDC
Also, you only gain weapon specialization for free at 3rd level (or in this case 4th) to the weapons your class gives proficiency in. So if you want that sweet, sweet level-to-damage, you have to spend a feat for each weapon type.
I agree mostly.
I plan on picking up weapons the enemy drops and using them and the fact that Op tricks do not work with the other categories is fine.
I am planing on what happens when you are not in your comfort zone. ie you need someone to fire a heavy weapon and or you need someone to done heavy armor for a time to take the attacks that the rest of your group cannot.
Right now it looks to be 3 Operative's and 1 Envoy with 1 NPC caster in the group.
After some per game discussions I have no problem shunting off 1 level to provide flexibility to the group.
I had no problem of doing that before we talked about what others were going to play.Also IMHO, the more things your PC can do and not rely on others to do is huge if you get separated from the group. I agree this is not Pathfinder doctrine ie the group does not separate, they sleep together, eat together, etc they are managed as a unit. But in most RPG's this is not the case.
MDC
I honestly don't think you're going to have the versatility you think you'll have with one level of soldier.
Heavy armor users and high dex characters have nearly identical AC early game, and the heavy armor only beats high dex light armor by about 3-5 points end game. Plus all the info we've seen about enemy npcs is they have very good attack values, so heavy armor will not allow you to tank like it did in Pathfinder.
Using a longarm or heavy weapon without weapon specialization will result in less damage mid-game than using your trick attack with an operative weapon. Let's look at level 5 when operative gets its first big trick attack die increase. A successful trick attack with a corona lasor pistol (small arm lvl 6) will do 2d4+3d8+5 (24 avg) vs a corona artillery laser (heavy lvl 6) will do 2d8 (9 avg). That's just no contest. Additionally, you'll need 12-14 str to use heavy weapons, which are points you could allocate elsewhere since str does so little for operatives.
So at this point, for dipping soldier you're gaining armor you don't need, weapons you must sacrifice a lot of damage to use, an inconsequential amount of hp and stam, a point of BAB, extra mobility you don't need since operatives are already the fastest class, and +4 initiative. You are sacrificing 4 starting skill points and delaying your class features by a level.
As I see it, the only thing you're getting of actual value from that dip is the initiative bonus. You're not actually gaining any versatility, since you're losing skill points and trading them for weapons and armor that you simply don't need as a dex-based class.
If you actually want flexibility, make sure all the operatives in your party take different specializations so you're not overlapping on skills, or simply go a different class. Dipping soldier will only result in you being less useful than the other two operatives who didn't delay their class progression.
Operative weapons are better for Operative opportunity attacks because Operatives probably have a lot better dexterity than they do strength. And you can use dexterity for the attack rolls of only operative weapons.
What do you expect your stat spread to look like? If you want to use advanced melee weapons, you'll need to invest at least 14 in str and even then you'll only have about a 50% chance to hit. At least operative weapons give dex to hit. How often are you going to be in range for AoOs anyway, since most sentient enemies will prefer ranged as well?
Also, have you looked at the WBL chart and compared it to gear prices? You just aren't going to have the resources to maintain more than one up-to-date weapon and armor and still have money for augments, upgrades, and magical items. Sure you can pick up stuff that enemies drop, but it's unlikely that stuff will ever be the top of the line gear available to your character at any given point.
I'm not advocating you build some optimized min-max character. I'm just trying to help you avoid a situation where you are noticeably less useful both in and out of combat than the other two pure operatives in your party. You will have less skills, a lower chance of hitting with ranged and melee, still get hit just as often regardless of what armor you're wearing, and your operative abilities and trick attack dice will be a level behind.
No matter how I look at it, trading those skills, attribute points, wealth and delaying good class features for the ability to wield weapons and armor you can't use optimally, more speed on top of your already excellent operative speed, and gain +4 to initiative is a very negative trade.
Outside of a situation where you are denied all of your normal gear and can only find heavy weapons and armor (if that happens more than once a campaign your DM is a dick) or when it's a life or death matter to go 50' in one move action (can't really imagine that extra 10' really being the difference maker more that one a campaign either) this build will be sup-par to a standard operative.
Your mediocre dex and str will mean you don't hit as reliably as a high dex operative, and using non-operative weapons after level 5 means you're losing out on massive trick attack damage. Outside of combat, you'll have four less skills thanks to that level in soldier, and because you needed points in strength, you had less attributes to spend on better secondary stats like cha or wis and will do worse on their associated checks.
I just don't see how this level in blitz soldier can provide enough unique and meaningfully positive benefits to make it valuable against the two standard operatives you'll be playing alongside.
|
I've pointed this out to Mark Carlson 255 elsewhere, but he seems determined to grab an advanced melee weapon purely for AoO.
I honestly have no idea why, but he's quite set on the idea.
|
|
Dead man walking One should always remember that the red ones go faster. Because the Orks believe the red ones go faster. Everyone is going to build the way they want
Indeed. That was sort of my point actually. He's decided to go that particular route and we're not gonna talk him out of it. Why bother trying?
I'm curious why he isn't just going straight soldier. He's not wrong about filling holes in the party composition, but I don't understand why he building his character to specialize in those roles and letting the other two operatives and the envoy pick up the slack.
But like you said Deadman, he's going to build how he's going to build.
As to the original question, I think leaving stealth off the soldier class skills was deliberate, a legacy of fighters not being stealthy, but yeah. I don't really agree with it.