I was looking at the Sharper rogue archetype and I realised that it replaces all rogue talents up to level 10. But it still suggests a lot of rogue talents at the bottom that are appropriate.
I was wondering if I can even take the feat Extra Rogue Talents if I don't get rogue talents until later. Do I still get the Rogue Talent class feature at 2nd even if I don't get to choose one that level?
From what I've read on these Messageboards (but haven't seen an FAQ), this also applies to Favored Class Bonuses (which can really hurt on those that progress slowly and only apply to something you don't get for the first few levels).
Edit: Example of the above: Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Magus is 1/6 of a Magus Arcana, but you can't start taking it until 3rd level, when you get your first Magus Arcana, so if you go straight with it thereafter, it only benefits you at levels 9 and 15; the only way to get another instance of it (unless your GM allows retraining Favored Class Bonus from lower levels) would be for you to get 21 levels of Magus, which requires not only Epic levels but also choosing the Epic level option that allows more than 20 levels of a base class.
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Whoa, kinda lame but understandable given what the Sharper gives you being pretty good. Cheers Rysky.
For future reference.
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
Example: If you have a cleric archetype that replaces channel energy at level 1 (but not later increments of channel energy), you don't gain the channel energy ability until cleric level 3, which means you don't have the channel energy class feature until you reach cleric level 3. Anything with "channel energy" or "channel energy class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 3.
Example: If you have a witch archetype that replaces your hex at level 1 (but not later hexes, major hexes, or grand hexes), you don't gain your first hex ability until witch level 2, which means you don't have the hex class feature until you reach witch level 2. Anything with "hex" or "hex class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 2.
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From what I've read on these Messageboards (but haven't seen an FAQ), this also applies to Favored Class Bonuses (which can really hurt on those that progress slowly and only apply to something you don't get for the first few levels).
Edit: Example of the above: Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Magus is 1/6 of a Magus Arcana, but you can't start taking it until 3rd level, when you get your first Magus Arcana, so if you go straight with it thereafter, it only benefits you at levels 9 and 15; the only way to get another instance of it (unless your GM allows retraining Favored Class Bonus from lower levels) would be for you to get 21 levels of Magus, which requires not only Epic levels but also choosing the Epic level option that allows more than 20 levels of a base class.
You won't find it in a FAQ. The issue cropped up in PFS and the leadership went to the Design Team who said that it worked that way.
Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.
I think the Design Team realized then that this had never been clearly stated anywhere, and so they put it into their next book which was Occult Adventures. The key part is...
If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a class feature at 6th level, a character couldn't take a racial favored class option that applies to that class feature until 6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn't be high enough to add a bonus until a later level.
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Thanks . . . wow, you can really get ripped off (see the fractional Magus Arcana FCB example above). Definitely something to keep in mind when writing/editing/commenting on guides . . . .
Note that the current ruling on Favored Class Bonuses is broken because some of them by definition give you something that your class never gives you, yet lack specific text overriding the ruling that you can't take a Favored Class Bonus until you have the class feature. Example: The Human Favored Class Bonus for Paladin ("Paladin: Add +1 to the paladin’s energy resistance to one kind of energy (maximum +10)." -- Paladin without archetypes never gets Energy Resistance, and I can't think off the top of my head of any archetypes that do (at least none of the common ones do).
Suggested House Rule: You can always take a Favored Class Bonus for a Favored Class, even if the Favored Class Bonus is for a feature that the class has not yet awarded. However, if the Favored Class Bonus gives you a class feature that you would not otherwise have (such as a Tiefling Phantom Thief taking +1/2 Sneak Attack damage against creatures with the Outsider type), you do not count as having that class feature for the purpose of anything that depends upon or modifies that class feature (including feats, prestige classes, and class talents) until you actually gain that class feature from a class (which does not have to be a favored class, so the Tiefling Phantom Thief in the above example could qualify for feats such as Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Rogue Talents that affect Sneak Attack by taking a level of Vivisiectionist Alchemist). If a Favored Class Bonus modifies (instead of grants) a class feature that you do not yet have, it only takes effect after you gain that class feature (an example would be a Gnome Enlightened Bloodrager taking the Favored Class Bonus to add +1/4 to the Bloodrager's effective class level when determining the effect of Bloodrager Bloodline Powers).
Of course, I should add that even with the fix proposed above, Favored Class bonuses are still of really variable quality . . . .