Combining my two recent posts from DSP's giantitp.com FAQ:
The target of Dimension Swap is listed as an "ally". I have scoured the web looking for a definition of this (re: willing), but only seen whether you can be your own ally. The power would be too strong if you could just use Body Equilibrium to walk over the lake, then stand looking up at the guard atop the castle walls, and several rounds later be inside the castle with the guard suddenly drowning in the lake. Was it kept not "willing" to prevent this from working with Unwilling Participant, or was "ally" accidentally used instead of "willing"? If "ally" is effectively the same as "willing", but you still used the other term deliberately, what is the distinction?
Untouchable Aura has a Range of Aura, which leaves me uncertain whether to use it through a collective (range: greater than Personal) (target: "you", which is presumably a willing creature), or use it with Shared Power (range: Personal?) - was it meant to be impossible to manifest for others with either of these, or which does it qualify for?
"A character can only benefit from a number of mind stones equal to half his powers known from his manifesting ability. Extra powers known from feats like Expanded Knowledge or from effects like psychic chirurgery do not increase this limit."
Does the human's Favored Class Bonus (which works identically to the Expanded Knowledge feat) count as a power known from their manifesting ability? Does the bonus Talent from a Vitalist's Knacks (if not replaced by an archetype) count as one of these powers? If they take the Access Psionic Talent feat, do those five powers count as more of these powers?
Are powers gained from Expanded Knowledge available for manifesting with each class of a multi-classed character? (Assuming that the manifester level with each is high enough to do so.) When dipping cross-class for bonus feats, can those feats be used for enhancing class abilities of a different class? When dipping cross-class for bonus feats, must any Expanded Knowledge feats be calculated based on the manifesting level in whichever class went up a level when the bonus feat was gained? Combining these, can a Vitalist (level 7) dip into Psion for an Expanded Knowledge feat to gain a 3rd-level power from any class list, even though they cannot manifest 4th-level powers as a psion?
Rage power: Celestial Totem, Lesser
The non-spell examples given are still divine magic; does this interact with psionic healing? Can the additional healing be redirected (over a collective), or does it only kick in when the final recipient of some healing has been resolved? Must each recipient receive at least 1 point if they are to get a bonus from Celestial Totem, or can the entire psionic healing amount be redirected once the Celestial Totem healing kicks in?
Can the Persistent Power feat be used with the psi-like power in the Vitalist class, "collective"? Normally a free power (to add one or more new members to the collective), would paying a total of 2 PP require Unwilling Participant to make two saving throws, with the failure of either bringing them into the collective? If so (if someone was added to the collective with Persistent Power), must they later make all saving throws against other powers (class or psionic) as if still affected by the Persistent Power, fueled by that original payment instead of needing to pay another +2 for each further power?
Vitalist: Reduce the power point cost to augment powers that heal hit point damage by 1/2. [JBE:BoHR:AFCO]
How does the Samsaran favored class bonus (Vitalist) work? The "golden rule" explicitly limits the PP that may be spent, so a 4th-level manifester augmenting their Natural Healing power five times - normally a cost of 6 PP - would reduce that cost by 2, with the leftover (4) no greater than their manifester level. Or is it the amount they would spend that is capped at their manifester level (4), and then they expend less energy (reduce by 2) (leaving 2) to manifest it?
Can you manifest powers on targets you can only see through a member of your collective upon whom Sense Link has been manifested? Can you use the "share my senses" augment with extra-sensory powers that grant you sight, such as Clairvoyant Sense? Can you use that augment with Synesthate? (When seeing sound, and sharing sight, will those you share with see through your eyes when you cannot? If you are feeling light, will they gain the +4 bonus to Perception since their eyes are still working? Can you use that augment with extra-sensory powers like Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, bringing everyone in on the same vision? Can you use one manifestation of Sense Link to see through the eyes of an ally using Enter Image, and another to let others in the group see what you are seeing through the ally's view from their image?
I've been assuming that Psychic Bodyguard, when augmented via the Vitalist's collective, can protect many people at once but collapses once a Will save is replaced for any of them. Can a Cap of the Free Thinker be used for that one saving throw? If a hostile power can affect more than one target and affects two members of your collective, do you make one roll to protect all of them from the power, or do you have to decide which member you will protect first?
When using Shared Power to bestow Inevitable Strike on every member of your collective, does it remain in effect for one attack each of them attempt, or does any one of them using it cause the power to immediately end for everyone?
Vitalist core Steal Health "A vitalist may use this ability on creatures with a total number of hit dice less than half his vitalist level, but he gains no healing from it."
Life Leech's Drain Health "may not be used against creatures with a total number of hit dice less than half the life leech’s level"
I've been reading this as "the Vitalist may steal health (lethal damage) from enemies who are not in the collective" (only the healing they gain from it cares about victim HD), but "the life leech cannot damage creatures in their collective if the HD are too low". That seems unusual, since the core vitalist is then better than the life leech at the damage side of things. A core Vitalist (level 5) would be able to murder 2nd-level commoners at will, whereas a life leech using their equivalent power would be utterly ineffectual. Was the intent for Drain Health to use the same wording as with Steal Health? (Should we treat it as having that wording?)
"If your rank in that skill is higher, the target uses your ranks in place of his own ranks (maximum 5 ranks), and vice versa. If a target’s skill ranks are replaced by this power, they are treated as though they actually had the shared ranks in the skill for all purposes (including class skill bonuses and the use of trained-only skills)."
Can the Skills As One power be used within your collective to relay skills? If you are treated as though you actually had those ranks in the skill "for all purposes", can you manifest it through the collective to acquire skill ranks from one member (who has them) and then share them with another member (who, like you, does not), effectively enabling the first member to share their skill ranks with the second (even though they cannot use the power) using you as a conduit?
"Damage: This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability. For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die."
Strength Of My Enemy: can we pull a rat out of the Bag of Tricks and spend a few rounds (before battle) petting it with our weapons to max out the Strength bonus? There's no chance of killing it, provided we avoid even any non-lethal damage (though if that's a concern we can always have an NPC hireling there who is willing to be alternately beaten up and healed in return for a living wage). Once its penalties are maxed out, can we still gain any Strength bonuses from it? If we don't have to deliver a fatal blow and the target is completely willing, how rapidly can we 'hit' them to trigger the power? As written it would trigger multiple times in one round if we had multiple attacks; if we're trying to hit a willing target, how fast can we do that?
Powers taken with Expanded Knowledge: do they use the primary stat of the class they are being manifested with? I want to have Untouchable Aura (which, with Shared Power, can simultaneously ward the entire party), but the effectiveness of its protection is limited to my DC for a Will save. In the case of Untouchable Aura, a Dread power, is the DC set by original class (in the Dread case, using my Charisma bonus), by my class, or may I select which to use if, e.g., my permanent Charisma stat is actually higher than my primary casting stat? If, on the other hand, my Charisma is lower than 10, the power would be keying off of a dump-stat, and then I cannot manifest it at all. If the manifester has multiple classes which might manifest the power from a single Expanded Knowledge feat, may they select per manifestation which class they manifest it from to use the stat that is highest at that moment?
Strength of My Enemy only calls out "natural or manufactured weapons", not melee vs ranged - can this power affect a bow and then trigger when each of the arrows loosed by it hits an enemy? Or would this have to be "pick one arrow per manifestation"?
Starting at 1st level, "a psychic warrior gets a bonus combat-oriented feat", but the same text later goes on to note that they "must be drawn from the feats noted as combat feats or psionic feats". Is this "or" meant as "you may take a combat feat" and "you may take a (non-combat) psionic feat", or "take any 'combat feat', looking in both the 'combat feats' area and (any combat-specific psionic feat from) the new 'psionic feats' area"? In short, is the Psychic Warrior dip-friendly for 1-2 levels of non-combat psionic feats?
When manifesting unknown powers as when addressing a power stone, can Use Magic Device (psionics version) be used here to pretend your class is the one with that power on its list? Would this change the automatic failure on Spellcraft check #2?
The class ability "collective" has no PP cost - with effectively infinite use, line-of-sight becomes "I try until my target rolls a 1 on their save". We're looking for low-level spells that protect against it. Protection From (Evil/Good/Chaos/Law) would prevent possession, which this isn't, and prevent mind control, but a collective isn't controlling anyone's mind, so the spell would provide a +2 bonus on Will saves. Are there any high-level detection spells that would interact (assuming less than full magic/psionics transparency) with a collective? Are there any high-level countermeasures? (If it matters, our transparency level is "distinct fluff"; Spellcraft won't help with psionics (have to dedicate ranks to Psicraft instead), detect magic doesn't register psionics; the Inspired recently arrived in Stormreach but Gather Information didn't mention anything about their unusual magic, so it seems likely that most magic-users won't have heard of psionics yet.) How can a magic-user who is unprepared for psionics defend themselves?
Many animals are listed as having 1 HD - can a Sadist bring one into the collective, let someone else kill it (since per my reading of Drain Health, above, they can't simply snuff out the poor creature's life on their own), and then have a bonus PP to use on buffs before cooking and eating the animal? Do they need the animal to suffer, or is this fluff that can be readjusted for a painless mercy killing?
Last question I think I figured out an answer to myself, though it did take me a while: Persistent Power has no minimum level to reach before taking the feat (so it can potentially be taken at level 1), but the +2 PP makes it almost impossible to use at first level - the only exception I can think of being Wilder+Overchannel (or possibly a Torc of Power Preservation, if wildly exceeding WBL guidelines). Even a talent wouldn't work, because focus must be expended to reduce a talent's cost below 1, and Persistent Power also requires expending focus to use. Apart from the wilder+overchannel combo I can see this being left open because it's another feat that can be taken before third level, and the +2 PP does effectively hold its immediate usefulness back. So this does reasonably seem like a non-omission.
I was thinking about adressing each of your points, but after reading through them, I have no inclination anymore to do so.
Were I the GM in that game, I would invite the person asking these questions (whether it is you or someone you play with) either reread the rules or stop wasting my time trying to break the game (depending on the situation).
My reply to most of the questions would be "no" or "that doesn't work how you think it works", either because the rules clearly explain the matter or because my interpretation of the rules would prompt me to do so.
For example, I would rule out using Untouchable Aura within a Collective or with Shared Power. While its range is indeed 'Aura' (the aura should be the effect in any case), the target is still 'You', meaning the manifester. I would treat it as if it had the range of 'Personal'.
I'm not a DSP dev, just a player and sometimes DM, but I think I can answer some of these:
1 - Dimensional Swap: I don't think ally has a game term definition, or willing for that matter, but in that case use common sense. So yes ally is the same as willing and also means some one who's friendly or helpful towards your character.
No, the guard you want to kill is not your ally.
Unwilling Participant forces someone into the collective, but he still gets a save as per the Special part of the feat.
2 - Untouchable Aura: Range:Aura is not a thing. DSP goofed on this one, maybe they have an errata document. I assume this is a Personal range, so you need Shared Power to use it on allies in the Collective.
3 - Mind Stones: Expanded Knowledge is called as not working, so why would the thing that works as Expanded Knowledge work? The answer is no. Knacks are powers but they're gained from a separate ability instead of the Manifesting ability, so they don't work for this. "Extra powers known from feats ... do not increase this limit." Access Psionic Talent is what? A feat. So it doesn't increase the limit.
4 - Expanded Knowledge: For a multiclass character, while they add their pp pools and can use pp from one class to fuel powers from the other, the powers themselves remain separate, so when you buy Expanded Knowledge choose which class it applies to. It uses that classes attribute and manifester level to calculate DCs, range, etc. You can use a feat gained from Psion levels to add powers to your Vitalist, that is okay. You can get the 3rd level power, it uses Wis instead of Int and your manifesting level will be 7 (NOT 8, You have manifester 7 for Vitalist powers and manifester level 1 for Psion powers)
5 - Celestial Totem: It does interact with psionic healing. Assuming psionic-magic transparency (the recommended thing by the devs), treat powers as spells and things like Transfer Wounds and Request Aid are similar to Lay on Hands. The healing can be redirected over the Collective.
Celestial Totem only applies to the Barbarian so you have to use the healing on the Barbarian while he rages, the extra healing kicks in, and then you can redirect all the healing.
6 - Persistent Power: First metapsionic feats do not work with psi-like abilities, much like metamagic feats do not work with spell like-abilities. Second Collective is a (Su) ability, that means it's Supernatural not Psi-like. Unwilling Participant is also Supernatural not Psi-like. Third even if they were, wanting to pay for the feat once and use on every power on the unwilling participant after is the kind of minmaxing that allows for the DM to smack you with the rulebook.
7 - Samsaran: The second one. You're capped at four but only pay two. Not sure if there's an actual rule to back this up, but the other way stinks of shenanigans and minmaxing.
8 - Senses: Yes, but you still need line of effect. Case by case, but it does work with Clairvoyance and Synesthate. You're a little confused on Synesthate, you need to see to see sound, it doesn't block your vision and if you're blinded you want the option to hear light instead, sense lights will give them the bonus if you share your tactile feel. It's weird and nonsensical but it works. It works with Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions and Enter Image, and using it and Collective to share on those visions is a really cool non-cheesy idea. Weall done on that one.
9 - Psychic Bodyguard: Right on the first account, you protect the whole party, but it discharges when the first of them needs to roll a save. Until you can pay that 8 point augment and protect them forever. Cap of the free thinker works, if you're the one wearing it. Decide which member you want to protect, roll only for him, the other will have to fend for himself
10 - Inevitable Strike: Any of them using it discharges it for all. Using the Spirit of Many augment on this is not very good.
11 - Steal/Drain Health: That's actually a good question. Might be a error. It's worth noting the Life Leech can use Drain Health on an Unwilling Participant, but Vitalist can't, so it may be a trade off for the increased range.
12 - Skills as One: That works.
13 - Strenght of my Enemy: This is cheese and DMs have the right to hit you with the book if you mention using abilities on a bag of rats. That understood, the power only triggers once you hit something, so you have to deal damage, you can choose to make it non-lethal, but you can't choose to deal less damage. Once the Strenght of the target reaches zero you can't gain anymore from that target. You can hit as fast as you can full attack, no more. Cheese enough with the hireling no need for extra attacks on top of it.
14 - Expanded Knowledge, part 2: Not sure if this is RAW, but the way I use it, you use the stat and manifester level of your class. If you have more than one manifesting class, you choose which class at the moment you take the feat, so if your int for Psion gets higher than your wis for Vitalist you still use wis.
15 - Strenght of my Enemy, part 2: It works with a bow. Bow is the weapon, arrows are ammo.
16 - Psychic Warrior: First line is flavor, second is rules. It is dip friendly to your purposes. As much as any dip is friendly to a full caster, it does mean it takes you a few more levels before you get new high level Vitalist powers.
17 - Unknown Powers: No and no. That isn't allowed on the section talking about manifesting unkown powers, and the session on the skill only talks about using it with power stones. so it only works wit power stones.
18 - Collective: Detect Thoughts to notice someone is having a party in his head. Mind Blank at high levels. There isnt much to do against it, but on the hand there isn't much danger in being in a Collective, since even Life Leechs and Sadists abilities still allow for a save throw
19 - Sadist: That works, but is cheese and the DM still has the right to beat you in the face with a hardcover book for suggesting it. On the fluff, you can alter with the DMs permission.
@Fabius: Of all the cheese on the questions, you're going to pick as an example the one who isn't? Share Power is exactly for making Range:Personal into Range: 30 feet or Range:Personal into Range:Personal with the [Network] Descriptor, both of which can be used on other member of the Collective and Spirit of Many allows him to augment so the target becomes you and one member of the collective for pp spent on the augment. This is RAW and RAI, no cheese.
You are right, of course. My apologies to ButlerWizard.
My final interpretation would be legal. However, it could also be that it was never intended for the power to receive a range, so RAI is questionable and RAW as is doesn't work.
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The target of Dimension Swap is listed as an "ally". I have scoured the web looking for a definition of this (re: willing), but only seen whether you can be your own ally. The power would be too strong if you could just use Body Equilibrium to walk over the lake, then stand looking up at the guard atop the castle walls, and several rounds later be inside the castle with the guard suddenly drowning in the lake. Was it kept not "willing" to prevent this from working with Unwilling Participant, or was "ally" accidentally used instead of "willing"? If "ally" is effectively the same as "willing", but you still used the other term deliberately, what is the distinction?
An ally is someone that is friendly to you. There is no "Pathfinder" definition, because pathfinder uses the common definition.
The distinction is that "ally" gets a choice. If you manifest dimension swap on a party member, and he doesn't want to go, he is able to automatically resist the power. Someone who is willing can be an "enemy" who has voluntarily foregone their saving throw - for whatever reason - or someone who is a member of a collective.
Dimension swap cannot be used with a collective. It does not have the network descriptor (without the use of additional feats). Regardless of whether they are part of the collective or not, since the power says "ally", it cannot be used in the way you describe.
Untouchable aura can be used with Shared power and manifested across a collective. It is not much different than using a communal spell feat with sanctuary, in effect. Be prepared to hit your maximum power point per manifestation limit very quickly.
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"A character can only benefit from a number of mind stones equal to half his powers known from his manifesting ability.
Hard stop at the end of this sentence. Do not take explanations of what other things do not work as an invitation to believe that other things do work. If Psychic Chirurgery doesn't work to increase the powers known limit for the number of mind stones, then assume nothing else will.
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Are powers gained from Expanded Knowledge available for manifesting with each class of a multi-classed character?
(Assuming that the manifester level with each is high enough to do so.) When dipping cross-class for bonus feats, can those feats be used for enhancing class abilities of a different class? When dipping cross-class for bonus feats, must any Expanded Knowledge feats be calculated based on the manifesting level in whichever class went up a level when the bonus feat was gained? Combining these, can a Vitalist (level 7) dip into Psion for an Expanded Knowledge feat to gain a 3rd-level power from any class list, even though they cannot manifest 4th-level powers as a psion?
Expanded Knowledge will add a power known to your powers known list, and you will manifest them at the manifester level of the class feature that granted you the feat. All the cross-class complication you are bringing up is immaterial.
The only time that being multiclass comes into play is if you have a power that exists on one power list or the other -- you have to use the one that applies best. -- See Page 27 - Ultimate Psionics.
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Rage power: Celestial Totem, Lesser
The non-spell examples given are still divine magic; does this interact with psionic healing? Can the additional healing be redirected (over a collective), or does it only kick in when the final recipient of some healing has been resolved? Must each recipient receive at least 1 point if they are to get a bonus from Celestial Totem, or can the entire psionic healing amount be redirected once the Celestial Totem healing kicks in?
Yes, additional healing can be redirected over a collective, just like any other healing. The redirection can be resisted by the barbarian in question. There is no "at least 1 point has to be applied limitation" that I'm aware of. The additional healing is added to the value of the healing spell, and the vitalist chooses to redirect whatever he wants, when he wants.
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Can the Persistent Power feat be used with the psi-like power in the Vitalist class, "collective"? Normally a free power (to add one or more new members to the collective), would paying a total of 2 PP require Unwilling Participant to make two saving throws, with the failure of either bringing them into the collective? If so (if someone was added to the collective with Persistent Power), must they later make all saving throws against other powers (class or psionic) as if still affected by the Persistent Power, fueled by that original payment instead of needing to pay another +2 for each further power?
Adding someone to the collective with or without unwilling participant is a (Su) action, not a psi-like power or a power. Persistent Power feat is not applicable.
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Vitalist: Reduce the power point cost to augment powers that heal hit point damage by 1/2. [JBE:BoHR:AFCO]
How does the Samsaran favored class bonus (Vitalist) work? The "golden rule" explicitly limits the PP that may be spent, so a 4th-level manifester augmenting their Natural Healing power five times - normally a cost of 6 PP - would reduce that cost by 2, with the leftover (4) no greater than their manifester level. Or is it the amount they would spend that is capped at their manifester level (4), and then they expend less energy (reduce by 2) (leaving 2) to manifest it?
For the samsaran ability, you spend power points to manifest the power which is equal to X. Augmenting the power adds an additional Y power points to the amount spent. Samsarans need only spend 1 point for "2 points worth of augmented effect".
So, a non-samsaran:
X + Y = PP spent, limited by max power points 'golden rule'
Samsaran
X + (Y/2) = PP spent, limited by max power points 'golden rule'
Note: this is not a DSP race or ability created by them. Final interpretation would have to be up to Jon Brazier Enterprises.
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Can you manifest powers on targets you can only see through a member of your collective upon whom Sense Link has been manifested?
All those sense sharing abilities provides line of sight. They do not provide line of effect, which is also required.
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When using Shared Power to bestow Inevitable Strike on every member of your collective, does it remain in effect for one attack each of them attempt, or does any one of them using it cause the power to immediately end for everyone?
They are all tracked individually, just like if you were to cast a communal true strike spell (if that is possible).
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Was the intent for Drain Health to use the same wording as with Steal Health? (Should we treat it as having that wording?)
No, Drain Health can only be used over a collective. It was meant as a way to prevent the Life Leech to have packs of low hd creatures used as HP batteries by using unwilling participant to add them to the collective and suck them dry.
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Can the Skills As One power be used within your collective to relay skills? If you are treated as though you actually had those ranks in the skill "for all purposes", can you manifest it through the collective to acquire skill ranks from one member (who has them) and then share them with another member (who, like you, does not), effectively enabling the first member to share their skill ranks with the second (even though they cannot use the power) using you as a conduit?
Yes, all of the "as One" powers have the network descriptor and along with the Spirit of Many ability, you can augment it to apply it to multiple members of the collective along with yourself.
Psychic Bodyguard: using over a collective doesn't change the way the spell is applied. -- You'll be rolling a lot of saving throws for your compatriots. Your Cap will work with one roll per day.
Strength of My Enemy: you have to do damage. It also works with ranged weapons.
Expanded Knowledge: powers do not have a primary stat, your class does. If you use expaned knowledge to add a power to your powers known list for your class, you use your class primary stat to manifest that power. Which class you use depends on which class gave you the expanded knowledge feat in case of multi-classing.
Psychic Warrior: the feats you can choose from are [combat] feats or [psionic] feats.
Power stones and UMD: For Power stones, You use UMD twice, one to address it, the other to "Use a power stone", the DC is set as if "you had a particular power on your class power list" already. So, doing the "emulate" option of UMD does nothing further.
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The class ability "collective" has no PP cost - with effectively infinite use, line-of-sight becomes "I try until my target rolls a 1 on their save". ... How can a magic-user who is unprepared for psionics defend themselves?
If you are referring to Unwilling Participant, read up on that feat. Even an unwilling participant is able to save against powers manifested on him while in the collective -- the DC is different, and he will remain in the collective, but he can still resist.
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Many animals are listed as having 1 HD - can a Sadist bring one into the collective, let someone else kill it (since per my reading of Drain Health, above, they can't simply snuff out the poor creature's life on their own), and then have a bonus PP to use on buffs before cooking and eating the animal? Do they need the animal to suffer, or is this fluff that can be readjusted for a painless mercy killing?
Despite the name of the archetype, it doesn't matter how the creature dies, only that it dies. Note it doesn't stack with itself.
VM mercenario wrote: I'm not a DSP dev, just a player and sometimes DM, but I think I can answer some of these Thanks for taking the time to consider my questions!
VM mercenario wrote: 1 - Dimensional Swap: I don't think ally has a game term definition, or willing for that matter, but in that case use common sense. So yes ally is the same as willing and also means some one who's friendly or helpful towards your character.
No, the guard you want to kill is not your ally.
Unwilling Participant forces someone into the collective, but he still gets a save as per the Special part of the feat.
Yeah, it's not "try all day". But a mid-level manifester (with Share Power as Quintain pointed out) would still be able to force a few saves on the guard, possibly doubled with Persistent Power, and that seemed overpowered for a 2nd-level power.
It was puzzling for the DM as well, who ruled that "willing" wouldn't be enough, you'd need a Charm Person or something on the guard - so possibly Bluff/Diplomacy would get them to be friendly to you. Or would you also need to convince yourself that you were their friend? Or just the latter? Or their willingness plus your benign intent qualifies, even when they don't particularly like you or want to help you? (I can think of PC's who accept aid but have no intention of returning the favor.)
VM mercenario wrote: 3 - Mind Stones: Expanded Knowledge is called as not working, so why would the thing that works as Expanded Knowledge work? The racial bonus doesn't call out Expanded Knowledge, it just has a similar effect (including the limit on "1 level below highest-level power known"), and not even identical wording. I don't know if racial bonuses modify class abilities or act as a separate (stacking) effect.
Side note for Quintain,
Quote: Hard stop at the end of this sentence. Do not take explanations of what other things do not work as an invitation to believe that other things do work. I haven't read enough to have any impression one way or another on that front, but I have noticed a lot of people emphasizing that a standard vocabulary is used (in Pathfinder) as a deliberate way of indicating consistency - which, in the study of law at least, implies a break with the usual meaning when the usual language is absent. (You'll see this in contract law disputes as well - I've seen cases where a party that argued for strict interpretation of the letter of their documents, on the grounds that they deliberately inserted the language and the other party never objected, pleads in a new case for leniency where "obviously they intended the usual wording", but the judge shuts them down because of the established history of being attentive to such details.)
Quote: All the cross-class complication you are bringing up is immaterial. For the Expanded Knowledge question specifically, or for the entire cluster of related questions? The absence of "Expanded Knowledge" from "When dipping cross-class for bonus feats, can those feats be used for enhancing class abilities of a different class?" was deliberate and significant: there are (e.g.) collective-enhancing feats which might have to be taken every other character level, taking generic (e.g. crafting) feats with the dips, and the timing of level progression would be even trickier if non-class feats were anchored to the class advanced in at that level.
VM mercenario wrote: Celestial Totem only applies to the Barbarian Skald-granted Rage powers - with a Sycophant's Ring for every captive in 30 feet. (Who cares if they fail Will saves when they're tied up anyway?) Or a collar slot for small enough pets, though I'm not sure that works without recrafting an item to change the type of slot it uses. Gets really expensive really fast, though.
(Cheese? You underestimate the proclivity of this party to engage in suicidal tactics. Also, the DM would like to waste less time at the beginning of each game session rolling up new characters for everyone. Those of us helping certain players roll up new characters every game session would like to reduce the fatality of their mistakes, too.)
VM mercenario wrote: 6 - Persistent Power: First metapsionic feats do not work with psi-like abilities, much like metamagic feats do not work with spell like-abilities. Second Collective is a (Su) ability, that means it's Supernatural not Psi-like. Unwilling Participant is also Supernatural not Psi-like. Ah, so that's what the "Su" meant. I was wondering about those. (They didn't seem to be a reference to anything else I was reading in the class description.) Reading up on it, I'm surprised the tables don't have Detection, but found an answer elsewhere.
I'll advise the DM this doesn't work (anymore) (though he may decide he prefers his house-ruling to the RAW).
VM mercenario wrote: 7 - Samsaran: The second one. You're capped at four but only pay two. Not sure if there's an actual rule to back this up, but the other way stinks of shenanigans and minmaxing. I was thinking the second one was min-maxing, myself; it would make sense that a Samsaran's connection to the cycle of life/death made healing powers easier for them (instead of empowering their healing beyond common limits), but then you'd have a high-level Samsaran healing ridiculous amounts for 1 PP - the first one is overpowered to the point of being useless (nothing has that many hit points), but to be overpowered the manifester has to be maxing out their current limit already (and will run out of PP before they can do it much), wasting most of their healing in the process.
Quintain wrote: Samsarans need only spend 1 point for "2 points worth of augmented effect". Is that a quote from JBE's book? (Let me know which one and I can buy it to show the DM.) I'd be kind of puzzled if so, because these bonuses apply every level. I discarded the interpretation that "1/2" meant "halve the cost" because that would be 1/16th the cost at 4th level, and humans who get (e.g.) "+1/2" on the Disguise Bonus for Vigilantes aren't giving +50% (linear or cumulatively x1.5) to the total roll - the meaning is usually "earn a fraction of this bonus each level you take this benefit".
VM mercenario wrote: 8 - Senses: Yes, but you still need line of effect. Aha, more phrases to look up. I really appreciate you calling out specific rules to research, it makes this much easier than just "read hundreds to thousands of pages hoping I stumble across the answers Google wasn't showing me (and perfectly understand them on my first reading)".
I can see how the text of Burrowing Power was meant, now - it's not saying that physical (projectile) powers can go through solid barriers, but that any power (since all powers would have this limitation) can work through scrying. This makes it more powerful than I had realized.
VM mercenario wrote: It works with Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions and Enter Image, and using it and Collective to share on those visions is a really cool non-cheesy idea. Weall done on that one. Hurray!
(I've been helping the DM by running NPC's for the party (intending to hand them off when players mature enough to accept a support role), and one of my primary goals with power selection was to give him ways of telling the campaign world's background story (since this was his primary purpose in running the campaign), but I was really hoping to be less of a "talking head" and enable him to narrate directly to the group.)
VM mercenario wrote: 9 - Psychic Bodyguard: Right on the first account, you protect the whole party, but it discharges when the first of them needs to roll a save. So unless the enemy is using single-target spells and I don't know who may be targeted next, there's no real point in spreading it over multiple recipients - may as well just pick one. Which relegates it almost entirely to the "daily buffs, powered by sacrificial meals" area. I may ask the DM if he wants to house-rule the simultaneous-target part, depending on which "difficult decision" he'd prefer to create.
VM mercenario wrote: 11 - Steal/Drain Health: That's actually a good question. Might be a error. It's worth noting the Life Leech can use Drain Health on an Unwilling Participant, but Vitalist can't, so it may be a trade off for the increased range. Good catch! I'd been looking at the "slaughter things at will" vs "restore health" trade-off, but range is definitely a consideration as well (30 feet at level 7, vs 680 feet with Enlarged Collective at the same level). With no way for an Unwilling Participant to remove themselves for 24 hours, and unlimited uses of Drain Health, a Life Leech could murder entire villages with scrying - kingdoms at 12th level when range becomes "the entire plane of existence").
Quintain wrote: It was meant as a way to prevent the Life Leech to have packs of low hd creatures used as HP batteries by using unwilling participant to add them to the collective and suck them dry. Using the same wording as from Steal Health would have accomplished that, and I'm glad they didn't, because this way a Life Leech (of say the 1st level) can't tag a high-level character and slowly drain 2 hp (1 hp per save) each round until the trapped character runs out of healing or figures out they need to literally run (away) until they are out of range (collective persists out of sight/effect once established).
Not sure how they'd figure it out if the Vitalist has been suppressing their displays (DC 16?), and especially if the free telepathy has been deployed to deceive them about what is going on.
VM mercenario wrote: 13 - Strenght of my Enemy: This is cheese and DMs have the right to hit you with the book I'm not sure what country you live in, but around here they don't have that right - whereas I, if they did, would have the right (and a professional obligation) to report them to the local authorities for battery (and probably would - someone with that little impulse control is a danger to others, and I wouldn't be surprised if the local game stores banned them too).
If you meant in a figurative manner, I apologize; I've come across the saying before and it's never been clear whether people are actually advocating for a moral right to enact physical violence. It's dangerous to encourage that kind of thing, even when joking, because when you can't control who's listening there may be that person at the back who takes it very seriously.
VM mercenario wrote: if you mention using abilities on a bag of rats. I was going to suggest the Lawrence Watt-Evans ruling to my DM; if you drain all the strength of a rat, you have now increased your strength by exactly the strength of that rat (which was probably worth a 1-point increment of yours).
VM mercenario wrote: 14 - Expanded Knowledge, part 2: Not sure if this is RAW, but the way I use it, you use the stat and manifester level of your class. If you have more than one manifesting class, you choose which class at the moment you take the feat, so if your int for Psion gets higher than your wis for Vitalist you still use wis. Having to plan out class levels in advance (to be sure of best future use), then. Options with drawbacks: I like it.
VM mercenario wrote: 15 - Strenght of my Enemy, part 2: It works with a bow. Bow is the weapon, arrows are ammo. I was thinking of "Range: Personal" and "Target: You" as the argument for that; "One of your natural or manufactured weapons becomes the instrument of your desire", but the only comparable power I saw for weapons (Metaphysical Weapon) had the arrows as an alternate effect. I don't see why they would have that unless - wait, never mind, that could be for "giving enchanted arrows to multiple archers instead of one bow".
VM mercenario wrote: 17 - Unknown Powers: No and no. That isn't allowed on the section talking about manifesting unkown powers, and the session on the skill only talks about using it with power stones. so it only works wit power stones. There's a bit of background here which isn't explicitly invoked by the psionics rules, namely UMD and wands (or staves) - the individual pages for wands and staves don't mention any possibility of an exception, but the UMD page does (and then there are lots of confused people across the internet trying to figure out exactly what can be emulated). I had to read all the pages to figure out what all the rules were.
Here, the restrictions on manifesting powers from another source describe it by reference to power stones (including, even, "Characters that can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters."), which lets me speculate that the other sources are being treated as power stones. Add in Harmonic Resonance, where it's not clear whether the feat adds a previously-unavailable capability or merely replaces an optional UMD roll (automatically impossible by the non-UMD pages) with an automatic success.
UMD only helps with items, not spells, and a person isn't an item (unless the intention was to treat them as one for the purpose of accessing their powers), so this ruling does make sense, but I want to point out that this is a confusing area of the rules. I figured I could easily be wrong, or more likely, missing something.
VM mercenario wrote: 18 - Collective: Detect Thoughts to notice someone is having a party in his head. Mind Blank at high levels. There isnt much to do against it, but on the hand there isn't much danger in being in a Collective, since even Life Leechs and Sadists abilities still allow for a save throw Well . . . see #11 (above), the save is only for half damage, so it's actually potentially fatal to be in a collective. This came up in a game session when a PC wanted to kill a 9-year-old girl so he could steal her inheritance, and the group's NPC leader (an evil-aligned bully I've been playing to help the DM keep the party on-mission and away from intra-party conflicts) had the Vitalist 'curse' him to begin losing 1 hit point for each word he spoke in favor of doing so. (Words have consequences. Literally.) At another point it was going to be used for assassinating the leader of an army outside the fortress walls, but we didn't need to find a defense because the leader said "let me use Bluff+Diplomacy to whisper in his mind and make him think this is his own idea". (The voices in your head are not to be trusted.) NPC leader has highest CHA skills; Enter Image will be amusing when the face of everyone in the party is disguised as the party's Face.
To recap:
Dimension Swap probably doesn't work with Unwilling Participant, but I'm still not sure exactly what conditions "ally" is looking for.
Untouchable Aura works either with Shared Power or only ever on self, but without an extra feat for Shared Power it'll be a few levels before I have to worry about this.
Human bonus powers don't expand Mind Stone limit. Feats, even when granting multiple powers, still don't.
Expanded Knowledge adds its power to a class list selected when the feat is taken. (Some dissent on this.)
May other feats enhance class features of any class other than the one a character goes up a level in when they gain that feat? No to bonus feats gained from classes, though the dissent later (#16) may apply here as well; implicitly yes (though not directly answered) for character-level advancement.
Celestial Totem combos beautifully with psionic healing and the collective.
Persistent Power (and other metapsionic feats) apply only to manifested powers, not class abilities.
Samsaran, unless whatever book it's from is very clear to the contrary, uses the weakest interpretation: augmentation cost is reduced after capping at the manifester limit.
Share Senses works with Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Synesthate, and Enter Image, but Line of Effect thwarts the manifestation-through-scrying.
Psychic Bodyguard can be manifested upon an entire group at once, but expends itself in one save upon the vitalist's pick of whoever needs it.
Inevitable Strike, like Psychic Bodyguard, expends itself when the first person makes an attack roll. (Some dissent on this.)
Drain Health having a different wording than Steal Health is absolutely essential to preventing murder sprees. Whether intentional or not, it's necessary; keep it.
Skills As One can take skills from one person and then give the newly-acquired skills to everyone else.
Strength of My Enemy can deal non-lethal damage, but has to deal full damage, so it'll probably one-shot the rat anyway (better hope there are lots of rats) unless everyone is only using their bare hands. Hits have to land at the attacks-per-round frequency, and the benefit stops once their Strength hits 1 (since it can't go lower).
Strength of My Enemy can be used through a ranged weapon; all projectiles count as completing a hit.
Psychic Warrior: dip-friendly? Dissent, sadly. Don't have to worry for a few more levels, though.
Manifesting another's powers known: doesn't work with UMD, and, notwithstanding the confusion, it's less confusing than magical UMD.
Low-level non-psionic defenses against Unwilling Participant rest upon whether it's considered a mind-affecting effect (since the life drain almost assuredly isn't). I'll talk with the DM about certain factions distributing anti-necromancy talismans (which happen to work against life-leeching too) for everyone in the game world, though I acknowledge this won't address the problem for anyone else who may come by looking for balance.
The common definition of "Sadist" is actually fluff (not good precedent for "ally", incidentally), so it can be adjusted to something appropriate (like the masochistic slave of the party leader, whose healing powers are spurred by seeing the evil Face murder her new pets for food).
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Quote:
Yeah, it's not "try all day". But a mid-level manifester (with Share Power as Quintain pointed out) would still be able to force a few saves on the guard, possibly doubled with Persistent Power, and that seemed overpowered for a 2nd-level power.
It was puzzling for the DM as well, who ruled that "willing" wouldn't be enough, you'd need a Charm Person or something on the guard - so possibly Bluff/Diplomacy would get them to be friendly to you. Or would you also need to convince yourself that you were their friend? Or just the latter? Or their willingness plus your benign intent qualifies, even when they don't particularly like you or want to help you? (I can think of PC's who accept aid but have no intention of returning the favor.)
It's not just a 2nd level power in isolation. It's a 2nd level power, a feat modifying the spell, along with what would likely be a collective ability that makes the range greater than the "close" range limitation of the power itself. It's much more than just a 2nd level power.
Whether someone is your ally is from the perspective of the target of the spell. You could use charm/deception to make him think you are his ally. The manifester is not a target of the power, so his intentions are immaterial.
Quote:
The racial bonus doesn't call out Expanded Knowledge, it just has a similar effect (including the limit on "1 level below highest-level power known"), and not even identical wording. I don't know if racial bonuses modify class abilities or act as a separate (stacking) effect.
The rule establishes a common ground for the ability. The "general rule" as it were, expressly stating that you count only your powers known from your class as the value you base the calculation on. (That's the first sentence). There are no exceptions given in the general rule, but multiple examples of abilities that expressly state that they are not exceptions. There is no exception text in the racial ability, so it defaults to the general rule.
That is how to read the rules in pathfinder. General rule is established, specific exceptions require specific exception text.
I'm still up in the air as to whether you are simply trying to rules-lawyer or your system master is simply at the beginner level. But it seems you are completely missing very simple things in an attempt to cheese things to your advantage.
Quintain wrote:
Dimension swap cannot be used with a collective. It does not have the network descriptor (without the use of additional feats). Regardless of whether they are part of the collective or not, since the power says "ally", it cannot be used in the way you describe.
Collective says, in part:
If a vitalist power specifies one or more willing targets (or is harmless) and has a range greater than personal, he can manifest this power on a member of his collective regardless of the range of the actual power.
and
If he is capable of manifesting powers or casting spells from a different class (as is the case for a multiclass vitalist), any compatible spell or power with a range greater than touch can also be used through the collective.
Dimensional Swap
Target: You and one ally in range, or any two allies in range;
( one or more willing targets )
Save: Will negates (harmless, object);
Looks like Dimensional Swap will work though a collective, without the 'network' descriptor. Network ignores the other collective requirements, it doesn't invalidate them.
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