Tumbling confusion

[Barachiel Shina]

If you attempt to move through multiple threatened spaces or opponents’ spaces during the same round, you must succeed at a check for each space, and the DC of each check beyond the first increases by 2. For example, if you tumble through a space threatened by two CR 1 creatures and a CR 2 creature, the DC = 15 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 22.

This seems contradictory to what the description of Tumbling was presented earlier. The DC of tumbling through a threatened space is 15 + 1.5 x CR and +2 to the DC per additional enemy.

So wouldn't the DC for the first CR 1 enemy be DC 16, the second CR 1 enemy be DC 18, and the CR 2 be DC 22? Why is it presenting the DC 22 as the check to be made per enemy? Also, it says a check needs to be made per space? So if you move through, say, 3 spaces the enemy threatens you gotta make 3 checks? That sounds like much, I thought it was only one check?

This needs to be clarified better.

[DJEternalDarkness]

I had to look over that a couple of times when I saw it, and then I realized the error. It's only 1 space, so the base DC is 15 + 2*1.5 (cr 2 creature) +2 (second CR 1 guy) +2 (third CR 2 guy). Total for the single square is 22. It's like the publishers left off a break in the paragraph because they were talking about multiple threatened spaces and changed the multiple to one in the same sentence.

Hope this helps!

[Saker]

It seems the modifier is added to a single roll if the space being tumbled through is threatened by multiple creatures. So, for that one square 15 + 2*1.5 (highest cr creature threatening square) + 2 + 2 (for the 2 cr 1 creatures) making that squares tumble check 22. Now if you succeed, then no more checks are needed for those 3 creatures for movement through threatened squares.

If your path included threatened squares but only by one at a time then you would need to make an 18 check vs the cr2 (15+3) then the next threatened square is 19 vs the cr1 (15+1.5+2) and the next threatened square a 21 vs the last cr 1 (15+1.5+4). (I'm assuming you round up on DC checks)

[Barachiel Shina]

Ah I see what you mean.

Which leads to another question; does a Tumble check need to be required for EACH space even if you already succeeded against the same enemies? That'd be tough.

[Saker]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Ah I see what you mean.

Which leads to another question; does a Tumble check need to be required for EACH space even if you already succeeded against the same enemies? That'd be tough.

No. Moving through threatened squares only provokes once from each creature.

[claudekennilol]

The key difference here is that it says "threatened space", not something like "threatened square". Any individual only has one "space" that they threaten--that space will include multiple squares (excluding weird layouts/situations) but is still one space.

[Barachiel Shina]

Ah that does make sense, thanks for the clarification

[Peter Halvorson]

Unfortunately, that's a lot of extrapolating from what is written to what you think makes sense. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, just that the rules don't explicitly support that view.

Pathfinder says a single move action only provokes a foe once, no matter how many threatened squares you move through. Beat them once on a Tumble and you're good (one Tumble per foe if you pass by multiple foes). All very explicit. None of which is in the Starfinder rules.

In Pathfinder it's relatively easy for a high Acrobatics character to zip around behind a foe for tactical advantage. In Starfinder it might be a LOT tougher.

[Can'tFindthePath]

claudekennilol wrote:

The key difference here is that it says "threatened space", not something like "threatened square". Any individual only has one "space" that they threaten--that space will include multiple squares (excluding weird layouts/situations) but is still one space.

Excellent catch. But infuriating. I see some great improvement in the Starfinder language over Pathfinder, but things like these need a line of explanation. I am an expert at parsing WotC/Paizo gamespeak, and that one had me flummoxed. I was reading it as check for each square as well. One shouldn't have to have a law degree in order to decipher these rules interactions.

[Tali Wah]

I'm sorry, but I am bringing confusion BACK into this.
P240:
"Most player characters and many monsters occupy a single 5-foot square, though some bigger creatures occupy multiple squares. The space a character occupies is usually referred to as her square, though the terms “space” and “square” can be used interchangeably. "

I believe you have to make a check for each threatened square, but the difficulty should be:
15 + (Highest CR*1.5)
+2 for each additional creature that threatens the square
+2 for each successive square in the same rd
-----

For moving through a creatures square:
20+ (Creature's CR*1.5)
+2 for each additional creature that threatens the square
+2 for each successive square in the same rd
----

You have to roll for each threatened square, and it gets more difficult.

[Can'tFindthePath]

Tali Wah wrote:

I'm sorry, but I am bringing confusion BACK into this.

P240:
"Most player characters and many monsters occupy a single 5-foot square, though some bigger creatures occupy multiple squares. The space a character occupies is usually referred to as her square, though the terms “space” and “square” can be used interchangeably. "

I believe you have to make a check for each threatened square, but the difficulty should be:
15 + (Highest CR*1.5)
+2 for each additional creature that threatens the square
+2 for each successive square in the same rd
-----

For moving through a creatures square:
20+ (Creature's CR*1.5)
+2 for each additional creature that threatens the square
+2 for each successive square in the same rd
----

You have to roll for each threatened square, and it gets more difficult.

Well, as a decypherer of the arcane, I believe Claudekennilol is correct in his interpretation. I think this is one of those wonderful times when the writers are causing confusion...roll a d4, on anything but a 1, it gets ugly...