Lesser Metamagic Rod and Spell Perfection

[Trish Megistos]

Can you cast a level 3 spell, use spell perfection to heighten spell to a lvl 9 (though it still remains level 3) spell and still use a lesser metamagic rod?

Spell Perfection specifically states that the spell level is not influenced by the metamagic feat.
However heighten spell specifically increases spell level.

[Quantum Steve]

Heighten Spell doesn't work with anything that reduces the effective level of metamagic. Reducing the level defeats the purpose of Heighten which makes the spell function at its effective level.

[Trish Megistos]

So you can't use Spell Perfection with heighten Spell? Well damn.

edit:
After skipping through this thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mibf?Spell-Perfect-heighten-spell

This seems to be the problematic sentence.

Spell Perfection wrote:

Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time[/spoiler]

The "without affecting its level" is probably meant as a description of what you can do and to distinguish it from a Preferred Spell.

Preferred Spell wrote:

This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.

The feats are actually very similar, both focus on a single spell, both require metamagic feats as requirements and both let you add (at least one) metamagic feat without increasing spell casting time while the other lets you ignore the associated spell level cost.

If the intention of the writers was to exclude heighten spell from this they have done so very poorly.

[John Murdock]

its not that the writer of those feat have made poor writing to exclude heighten spell, heighten by its wording do it by itself, the reason is since the effective spell lvl of the spell is higher it must use a spell slot of the same lvl or higher to be casted.

take fireball as an example.

fireball is a spell lvl 3, that is true and effective lvl, it must use a spell slot of lvl 3 or higher to prepare and cast, lower lvl spell slot can't be used, now heighten it to lvl 9, now its effective spell lvl is 9 and must use a spell slot of lvl 9 or higher to cast it, yes those feat make the spell can be prepare with any metamagic using a spell slot lower than normal, but since its effective lvl is 9 it must use that spell slot to be usable and i'm pretty sure that rod that affect spell lvl 3 or less can't affect an heighten fireball since it is now a spell lvl 9

[Trish Megistos]

@John Murdock
I find it difficult to not read the "without affecting its level or casting time" as anything other that you can ignore the metamagic level increase. Because that's exactly how it works for every other feat.
Granted, Heighten Spell is sort of a unique metamagic feat in that it actually changes the spell level, but there isn't that much of a benefit to it given the relative high cost of feat. It's a high level feat to improve one spell.

Unto the next example then.
You have prepared a heigtened fireball (lvl 6), use spell perfection to add dazing spell. Could you use a (normal) metamagic rod to add, let's say, quicken? Or are the metamagic rods also bound by the level 9 spell clause? And do these different level 9 clauses add up?

I should probably clarify: all the metamagic feats you apply to a spell must add up to level 9 regardless of source of the metamagic level increases. Is that the case?

[John Murdock]

if your fireball is then a lvl 6 you need a rod that can affect a lvl 6 spell, but it won't increase its spell slot lvl or decrease it, that's why you have metamagic rod that can affect spell of lvl 9. lesser its 3rd lvl and less, normal its 6th and less and greater its 9th and less, both of them can be used 3 time per day

the clause that say not increasing its casting time is still useful since a spontaneous caster still need to increase the casting time for heighten since its still a metamagic feat, so any thing that will lower the casting time still apply, the only thing that do not apply to heighten is the reduction in spell slot, since its effective spell lvl need the minimum spell slot lvl to cast it (as well as the casting stat of course)

[blahpers]

Trish Megistos wrote:

Unto the next example then.

You have prepared a heigtened fireball (lvl 6), use spell perfection to add dazing spell. Could you use a (normal) metamagic rod to add, let's say, quicken? Or are the metamagic rods also bound by the level 9 spell clause? And do these different level 9 clauses add up?

I should probably clarify: all the metamagic feats you apply to a spell must add up to level 9 regardless of source of the metamagic level increases. Is that the case?

You can use the rod to apply the Quicken Spell feat to your dazing heightened(6th) fireball. If you couldn't, there wouldn't be such a thing as a greater quicken metamagic rod.

[John Murdock]

no need to use a greater rod for the heighten fireball, since its a lvl 6 spell normal do the job, and you can applies as many normal metamagic rod to put other metagamic into the spell, the limit is how much gold you want to put into it and 3 time per day per rod

[blahpers]

Sadly for my would-be dual-rodding druid, you can only use one metamagic rod on a single spell:

Metamagic Rods wrote:

A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder.

If you can afford it, get the highest-adjustment metamagic as a rod.

[John Murdock]

i rarely use metamagic rod, that's why i though you were able to use more than one, i stand corrected

[blahpers]

They're pretty nice if you can find the right one for the job. I rarely find myself wanting metamagic enough to both burn a feat and increase the spell level.

[John Murdock]

maybe i should always have a quicken metamagic rod for my wizards for them to use teleport as a swift action to be in safety rather quickly, especially since i like to play dangerously with wizard having them have 7 of con sometime 6 because of being mature :P

[blahpers]

Wow. Even my reincarnated druid has 8 Con. You're really riding the lightning. : D

[Gallant Armor]

Why not play a Venerable Elf Wizard with con dumped to 7?

[John Murdock]

because his con will be 1 and having a -4 to HP is too much for me, i prefer having a human wizard with a con of 7 and sometime having them be mature for that +1 to all mental stat, also my wiz have a str of 7 yes i know they are very weak only their dex are ok

[Trish Megistos]

Thanks for the information.