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If I have a mechanic's drone, can he make skill checks or operate a gun during starship combat?
RAW, no they can't: " Class features and items affect crew actions only if specifically noted in the class feature or item." page 322. That said I think that's real dumb and I'd let them.
Adding to the DUMB factor. The following Class features do not say they affect crew actions(not all inclusive, just the ones I could find quickly):
Expertise / SKILL EXPERTISE
Bypass
Exocortex: Memory Module
Starry Bond
Operative's Edge
Specialization
Specialization Skill Mastery
Certainty
Laser Accuracy
TECHLORE
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So if a drone with Skill Unit in Computers or Engineering can't use it in Ship combat, I see no reason why Bypass or Operatives Edge would grant their bonus to skills in Ship Combat.
So...no R2D2 astromech droid? I think my rule at the table is yes, they can assume a crew role, however they cannot take a psuh action unless they have the True AI feature.
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RAW, no they can't: " Class features and items affect crew actions only if specifically noted in the class feature or item." page 322. That said I think that's real dumb and I'd let them.Adding to the DUMB factor. The following Class features do not say they affect crew actions(not all inclusive, just the ones I could find quickly):
Expertise / SKILL EXPERTISE
Bypass
Exocortex: Memory Module
Starry Bond
Operative's Edge
Specialization
Specialization Skill Mastery
Certainty
Laser Accuracy
TECHLORE----------
So if a drone with Skill Unit in Computers or Engineering can't use it in Ship combat, I see no reason why Bypass or Operatives Edge would grant their bonus to skills in Ship Combat.http://paizo.com/starfinder/faq#v5748eaic9w54
Asked and answered.
Linkified and quoted for convenience.
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Looking over a few things I noticed that I need some clarification with regards to drones in space combat. As I see it.... Drones in space combat are legal???
Drone…
“… is capable of combat, espionage, and other specialized tasks.” Page 69 SFCRB
Mechanic Limited AI….
“each round on your turn, after you have acted, your drone can take either a move action or a standard action to attack” Page 75 SFCRB
Crew Actions….
“you can take one action (usually defined by your role) per round for starship combat.” Page 322 SFCRB
As long as the drone has “Manipulator Arms” Page 77 SFCRB I see no reason why they can’t fill in as a Gunner as long as a PC isn’t getting bumped from the spot.
They are not as they are class features not explicitly allowed in starship combat. Does that make sense? Depends on who you ask. As always for a home game see what your GM thinks, and for SFS don't plan on using this as it is something not strictly supported by the rules, so expect a lot of table variation and possible arguments.
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They are not as they are class features not explicitly allowed in starship combat. Does that make sense? Depends on who you ask. As always for a home game see what your GM thinks, and for SFS don't plan on using this as it is something not strictly supported by the rules, so expect a lot of table variation and possible arguments.
I see the "Class features and items affect crew actions only if specifically noted in the class feature or action." I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. LOL. I can see points for both sides of the discussion. Until we get new rule clerificaion or expanded rules on this topic.... No droids in Space combat for our group.
I guess part of the problem is that in my head drones and space ships go hand in hand...
Like I said, it depends on who you ask if it makes sense or not...
Actually there are some abilities that do work in starship combat like the mechanic's hold it together.
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My reading of it ... your drone cannot affect crew actions. Full stop. Your drone is a creature and has the ability to take actions (and therefore become a member of the crew). It cannot affect the crew actions taken, but it isn’t barred from taking its own crew actions. Your drone cannot aid another or anything like that, but it can still take crew actions.
It’s unclear and I can see both sides.
I don't see a drone as a creature. I see it as an extension of the mechanic. Otherwise, why does the mechanic have to use a move or standard action to take full advantage of what a drone can do?
This is my thought as well.
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I don't see a drone as a creature. I see it as an extension of the mechanic. Otherwise, why does the mechanic have to use a move or standard action to take full advantage of what a drone can do?
It’s a creature that has limited ability to take actions. Still a creature though, specifically a construct with the technological subtype. All of the other rules that affect creatures still affect it.
Based on the Limited AI and such, in my own games I’d only allow the drone to do things it can do without being under direct control: gunnery and skills it has selected with Skill Unit.
Without the mechanic, there is no drone. Ergo, drones are not independent creatures that can pilot starships. They are class abilities.
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Without the mechanic, there is no drone. Ergo, drones are not independent creatures that can pilot starships. They are class abilities.
Without the necromancer, there isn’t the undead?
Drones are not independent creatures. They are still creatures though, they can take actions, they can even take some actions while not under the mechanic’s control. They can’t affect crew actions but they may be able to take crew actions.
And yeah, Piloting isn’t one of the Skill Units so of course they can’t pilot starships.
Apples and oranges. Undead are the instantaneous remnants of a spell effect. Though the spell often comes from a spellcasting class ability, the undead themselves are not class abilities.
The drone, however, is. Without the mechanic to control it, it likely takes on no initiative or independent action at all. At best, it would simply follow the very limited programming of its last given command. At worst, it breaks down entirely and ceases to function as an entity.
Either way, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that it isn't a class ability for the purposes of starship combat.
Balance is the greatest argument against drones being able to participate in starship combat. Is it fair for the drone mechanic to get to do twice as much in starship combat as anyone else? They already can easily out dps their exocotex counterparts in regular combat. Being able to twice as much in starship combat would be rather unbalanced.
And from a narrative perspective during an engineering round who's to say the mechanic ISN'T using his drone along with his own actions, but just as starship stuff boils participation down to ranks as opposed to full scores of a PC, its a different abstraction.
I'd be cool with a drone ship though, like a tiny fighter that's entirely automated, but by rules that would probably be more like having an AI (limited) doing the roles (probably not 'captain' though)
Mechanics class ability is to create, repair, reconfigure, and control the drone - but the drone is a creature unto itself. If told to "patch the power core" and it has the ability to perform engineering tasks, it will carry this out to the best of its ability without further guidance while the mechanic focuses on other things.
CRB page 76 under "Skill Unit" states, "Your drone can use this skill when not under your direct control." I can't imagine it being spelled out any clearer.
But for game balance lets compare apples to apples; mechanics with a drone vs mechanics with an exocortex. The FAQ pretty clearly states that skill bonuses and rerolls granted by class features are applicable to starship combat; http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1hi#v5748eaic9w54
So an exocortex's memory module built for Piloting would provide a +3 bonus to their crew action at pilot, or Diplomacy for captain, etc. The increased likelihood at succeeding in a crew action is, more or less, akin to a drone's ability to succeed at theirs.
I believe there's pretty broad consensus at this point that an exocortex is superior to a drone in most ways, disallowing drones in starship combat would imbalance the class option even further.
Well, where technology fails magic works. Handy junkbot, animate dead, and planar binding all provide independent creatures that are able to take actions and do aid another checks.
Except starship combat rounds are not your traditional combat rounds. There's no telling how many spells you can cast in a round of starship combat, if any, or how long they would last.
And that's assuming you don't consider spells to be class abilities, which can't be used to augment starship combat actions--which is clearly what you're trying to do.
Well, where technology fails magic works. Handy junkbot, animate dead, and planar binding all provide independent creatures that are able to take actions and do aid another checks.Except starship combat rounds are not your traditional combat rounds. There's no telling how many spells you can cast in a round of starship combat, if any, or how long they would last.
And that's assuming you don't consider spells to be class abilities, which can't be used to augment starship combat actions--which is clearly what you're trying to do.
I branched this thread to cover the issue of rounds, time, and distance which is off-topic here.
However, the topic of creating or summoning creatures to take starship roles is extremely useful to the debate of drones in starship combat - this isn't augmenting starship combat actions, this is literally bringing additional crew members into play.
As a GM I love player proposing such a creative solution as a technomancer casting "Handy Junkbot" when extra hands are needed in engineering. However, I would consider that you can only take a move or standard action during a starship round and that this spell takes a full round to cast.
The closest condition to being in starship combat would be "staggered" which specifically doesn't allow you to take full round actions. I would have to say that due to G forces, rapidly changing inertia, and other complications taking a full round action is impossible because everyone is effectively staggered.
If cast immediately before starship combat I'd allow it though.
The same would hold true for Summon Monster. Planar Binding takes 10 minutes so that's not going to work during combat. If there's dead around to animate, since it only takes a standard action I would allow it but you'd have to find a form of undead that has useful skills.
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Arc Riley, the problem is that no where in the description of the drone, or any of it's abilities or that of the mechanic, does it say that its actions can take place during space combat.
I know people really want drones to be a R2D2 in space combat. But the rules do not allow that.
If a GM of a home game wants to allow, they can. It will likely unbalance space combat.
For SFS players, we have to go by the rules unless we get a campaign clarification.
The question was asked. The answer has been given. If the GM allows drones to be active in space combat, great. If they don't, great.
Personally, I would not allow drones actions in space combat. It is already a fairly complex process and I don't need something else to slow it down. But I don't GM home games, only SFS games.
Though I don't think the RAW supports it, I do support GMs who wish to houserule differently. It's hard filling out all of the ship crew slots, so one player getting a little more attention in starship combat (with its already unbalanced roles in terms of table attention) is a small price to pay.
Arc Riley, the problem is that no where in the description of the drone, or any of it's abilities or that of the mechanic, does it say that its actions can take place during space combat.
This sort of argument could be used to deny such a broad range of activities as to be useless. Nothing in RAW states that Charm Person can be used to get an NPC to take crew actions in starship combat either.
The question was asked. The answer has been given.
If there's been an official answer on this, please link to it. This has been a recurring debate since the game was released but I've seen no comment from anyone in an official capacity.
The core of this debate is RAW vs Common Sense, Paizo tends to lean toward the latter. The concept that a drone with an Engineering skill and otherwise capable performing engineering tasks being required to sit deactivated during starship combat is absurd.