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There is a question in this post about the step up feat.
The idea is that some think you can use the Step Up feat even if you can't see the opponent move, nor did you have any other method of knowing they moved.
As always the actual FAQ question I am posting is in bold.
My question in order to take care of that post and any similar ability follows:
Can a character who can't perceive(likely see) the action of the opponent that the ability allows them to react to use that ability if that ability is reaction based.
Examples are the Step Up feat which react to movement or similar abilities such as Opportune Parry and Riposte which allow reactions to an attack.
The argument from what I understand is that Step Up does not specifically say you have to perceive the opponent to use the feat. The counter argument is that you can't react to a foe you can't perceive. The same logic(you don't need to perceive them) would likely apply to other abilities for those who say perceiving is not a factor.
Examples of abilities this FAQ would effect:
Step Up (Combat)
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll. If her result is greater than the attacking creature's result, the creature's attack automatically misses. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature's attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made. Upon performing a successful parry and if she has at least 1 panache point, the swashbuckler can as an immediate action make an attack against the creature whose attack she parried, provided that creature is within her reach. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the number of panache points a deed costs.
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Well, there are multiple possible interpretations:
1. You can't use Step Up against creatures you can't perceive, since it requires you to know they took a 5 foot step away from you. Unless you succeed on the Perception check to spot which direction they moved, you can't use the feat.
2. You can use Step Up, but must succeed on an opposed Perception V.S. Stealth roll to automatically follow them, otherwise you're advancing 5 feet in a direction of your choosing (which may or may not be the direction that the other creature is taking).
3. You can use Step Up even if you can't see the creature.
Personally, I think the devs will rule with #1, since its the most simple to apply. Also, Martials can't have nice things (like being able to inadvertantly tell where unseen creatures are. (It's also the ruling I agree with.)
#2 is also plausible and fair, but it breaks the intent of how the feat is supposed to work (i.e. actually following the creature that you know made the 5 foot step).
#3 sounds silly, and breaks both the intent of the feat, as well as gives Step Up (and the rest of its feat chains) unintended power creep versus invisible creatures (which isn't game breaking, but again, not intended to happen).
Of course, YMMV. I FAQ'd. Others who wish to see a definitive answer should FAQ the OP as well.
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Well, there are multiple possible interpretations:
1. You can't use Step Up against creatures you can't perceive, since it requires you to know they took a 5 foot step away from you. Unless you succeed on the Perception check to spot which direction they moved, you can't use the feat.
1A. As 1, but you can only move to where they were, since that is the only square you can move to that is 100% guaranteed to be adjacent to their new position.
I think 1A is somewhat better than 1. The reason you cannot go to another square, is the feat requirement that you end up adjacent. Either the GM has to tell you which squares are valid choices, or you have the possibility of choosing an invalid square and thus possibility loosing the 5' step per the movement-ending-in-an-invalid-space rules.
Also note the way invisibility allows sneak attack because you cannot react to what you cannot see.
[See Unaware Combatants (PRD) and Sneak Attack thread with rule citations].
/cevah
Well, there are multiple possible interpretations:
1. You can't use Step Up against creatures you can't perceive, since it requires you to know they took a 5 foot step away from you. Unless you succeed on the Perception check to spot which direction they moved, you can't use the feat.
1A. As 1, but you can only move to where they were, since that is the only square you can move to that is 100% guaranteed to be adjacent to their new position.
I think 1A is somewhat better than 1. The reason you cannot go to another square, is the feat requirement that you end up adjacent. Either the GM has to tell you which squares are valid choices, or you have the possibility of choosing an invalid square and thus possibility loosing the 5' step per the movement-ending-in-an-invalid-space rules.
Also note the way invisibility allows sneak attack because you cannot react to what you cannot see.
[See Unaware Combatants (PRD) and Sneak Attack thread with rule citations]./cevah
Nothing in 1 says you won't end up adjacent to the creature. A Perception check would tell you which direction they went, and so you could act according to that information. You may not 100% know the square they're in (such as if they took a move action), but you could move to one of the three plausible squares and still be considered "adjacent" to the direction that they moved.
Following Step, on the other hand, adds a whole other bit of confusion to this, since it permits 10 feet of movement, versus a 5 foot step, meaning you can potentially run into the creature, and is perhaps something that should also be addressed with this FAQ.
Invisibility has special rules that state enemies are denied their Dexterity bonus if they are unseen, based on the Combat table regarding Combat Modifiers. By that logic, any time a creature has Total Cover (i.e. you can't see them), you are flat-footed to that creature, which makes no sense in the case of an archer firing through an arrow slit against enemies assaulting a castle (that they know is armed with soldiers defending it).
Total Cover doesn't necessarily mean you can't see them.
Not being able to see 90% of the is sufficient. Ie., your arrowslits example.
Total Cover doesn't necessarily mean you can't see them.
Not being able to see 90% of the is sufficient. Ie., your arrowslits example.
That's actually exactly the definition of Total Cover. If an enemy is behind the wall, you can't see them. Therefore, you're flat-footed to them, even if you're aware they exist behind that wall.
@ John Murdock: Okay, let's go with the illusion of a wall that a spellcaster put up that you've failed the saving throw on.
Anyone else want to chime in?
I think you can, if (as in the thread that started this) you have Spotted them. This would allow you to take your Immediate action and follow, not needing another Spot check. However, your Op is worded poorly.
The critical thing is that the PC has already made his Perception check and has pinpointed the Invisible guys next to him.
If we get an answer here, and the answer is "NO" that in no way answers the question posed in the other thread.
Please reword your OP.
he has pinpoint where he was not where he went, so he can't use the feat in question unless he succeed his second perception check to pinpoint it again
And see I disagree, since Step Up is a Immediate action. Thus the PC is noticing his target move.
But the point is, by leaving off that the target has already been pinpointed/spotted, this thread will not solve the other debate.
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he has pinpoint where he was not where he went, so he can't use the feat in question unless he succeed his second perception check to pinpoint it againAnd see I disagree, since Step Up is a Immediate action. Thus the PC is noticing his target move.
But the point is, by leaving off that the target has already been pinpointed/spotted, this thread will not solve the other debate.
PRD: Perception rules do not give you direction moved. The best you can get is: Hear the sound of a creature walking. Also, Step Up does not give you knowledge that he moved. It is instead triggered by you gaining that knowledge.
You can know where he is at the start of his turn by your previous pinpointing by perception. That check in no way tells you when he moves or what direction he moves.
When he 5' steps, you have to decide -- before it finishes -- to use your Step Up feat. You cannot see him, and cannot tell the direction he takes. Therefore you cannot determine where he will end up.
The step up feat states (PRD):
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
You have no choice but to move adjacent.
If you do not know where he ends up from a 5'-step, you have only one choice where you can move that is guaranteed to satisfy the feat: the square where he was. Any other choice may hit this (PRD):Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
This means that if you guess incorrectly, you have spent your immediate action, fail to move, and cannot 5' step during your next turn.
So how did you know he moved? Pinpointing gives you his current location, but tells you nothing about how he moves. You need a perception check to Hear the sound of a creature walking. This is clearly a separate check to the pinpoint you had previously done.
/cevah
I always saw the perception check as letting you know where they are, not where they moved from. As an example if someone moves from point A to point B, then you know where they are, otherwise if someone was invisible you would never be able to know where they were. Knowing that someone invisible moved from point A is not really of much use unless you are in a really cramped area, and they have few other places to move to.
he has pinpoint where he was not where he went, so he can't use the feat in question unless he succeed his second perception check to pinpoint it againAnd see I disagree, since Step Up is a Immediate action. Thus the PC is noticing his target move.
But the point is, by leaving off that the target has already been pinpointed/spotted, this thread will not solve the other debate.
PRD: Perception rules do not give you direction moved. The best you can get is: Hear the sound of a creature walking. Also, Step Up does not give you knowledge that he moved. It is instead triggered by you gaining that knowledge.
You can know where he is at the start of his turn by your previous pinpointing by perception. That check in no way tells you when he moves or what direction he moves.
When he 5' steps, you have to decide -- before it finishes -- to use your Step Up feat. You cannot see him, and cannot tell the direction he takes. Therefore you cannot determine where he will end up.
So, "Perception rules do not give you direction moved." So if you see someone walking in broad daylight, no invisibility, you cant tell where he moved?
You have already pinpointed him, and since you know he is there, the step up feat allows you to follow him without another check. It is an Immediate action.
Instead of thinking up silly examples, just look at the rules.
Movement reduces the DC to find an invisible person by 20 points. The movement is directly related to noticing them. It seems strange to suggest that you would be unaware of the movement, but notice their now stationary position, especially when said movement directly aided you in finding their current position.
I also go with Darksol's #1.
To declare Step Up you must know 100% sure the creature took a 1-foot step AND it took that 5-foot step directly move away from you. In that scenario , the Gm will not say "the invisible creature next to you takes a 5-foot step". The creature's movements and actions will be hidden.
Since you don't know what type of movement the creature used (even if you somehow "sensed" the creature moving away), you still aren't 100% sure the creature took a 5 foot step so cannot declare Step Up.
When a pinpointed creature moves you normally lose her track unless you pinpoint her again. Reactive ("free) checks may be granted by the GM if he considers the situation allows it, but in any other scenario you will have to actively attempt to pinpoint her again, something that requires a move action and thus can only be done in your turn.
I'd totally say that a pinpoonted creature next to you moving anywhare is not enough to grant a "free" reactive check, unless that creature actually ends again next to you. You may "sense" the creature is no longer where you thought, but not where.
This is getting silly.
Foe takes a 5-foot step. Fighto the Fighter makes a reactive Perception check to notice. Success? Fighto can Step Up.
Instead of thinking up silly examples, just look at the rules.
Movement reduces the DC to find an invisible person by 20 points. The movement is directly related to noticing them. It seems strange to suggest that you would be unaware of the movement, but notice their now stationary position, especially when said movement directly aided you in finding their current position.
Only movement at full speed gives a -20 penalty
This is getting silly.
Foe takes a 5-foot step. Fighto the Fighter makes a reactive Perception check to notice. Success? Fighto can Step Up.
Two issues there.
1-. You don't know if the foe takes a 5-foot step since you don't see the foe. You may be able to "sense" that the opponent is moving somewhere but that's it. The exact opponent's actions are hidden so he might perfectly be making a normal 5-foot move action.
Bad action economy? true, but it's totally doable.
You have to know that the prerequisites are met in order to declare the use of a feat. You can't just keep declaring "I Use Step Up" at random in the hope that the feat's prerequisites are met.
2-. You don't chose to take a reactive perception check, but instead the GM decides if you're eligible to take one based on circumstances. The fact that you pinpointed an invisible foe once doesn't mean you can continuously keep pinpointing that foe "for free".
This is getting silly.
Foe takes a 5-foot step. Fighto the Fighter makes a reactive Perception check to notice. Success? Fighto can Step Up.
And would you further this to include a character using Opportune Parry and Riposte against an invisible opponent having to first make a reactive perception check to even use the ability?
I will give an an example of why the perception check does not help.
If you make a perception check you know what square someone is in because it gives away the square.
If you are attacked by an adjacent invisible opponent you know what square they are in because it gives away the square.
Both things give you the exact same information. Person A is on Square Y.
If the person who you located because he attacked you takes a 5 foot step you have no way to know that he moved away outside of a perception check to know his new location.
Finding someone via a perception check doesn't have any advantage over finding someone because they tried to stab you in the face.
So if one situation doesn't allow you to know what someone is doing then neither will the other one.
And would you further this to include a character using Opportune Parry and Riposte against an invisible opponent having to first make a reactive perception check to even use the ability?This is getting silly.
Foe takes a 5-foot step. Fighto the Fighter makes a reactive Perception check to notice. Success? Fighto can Step Up.
Yes.
I will give an an example of why the perception check does not help.
If you make a perception check you know what square someone is in because it gives away the square.
If you are attacked by an adjacent invisible opponent you know what square they are in because it gives away the square.
Both things give you the exact same information. Person A is on Square Y.
If the person who you located because he attacked you takes a 5 foot step you have no way to know that he moved away outside of a perception check to know his new location.
Finding someone via a perception check doesn't have any advantage over finding someone because they tried to stab you in the face.So if one situation doesn't allow you to know what someone is doing then neither will the other one.
A Perception check gives you whatever information the GM says it does. The Perception DC table is not exhaustive, and it's called out as "a number of guidelines" because it's impossible to cover every situation. If it something that (a) isn't obvious but (b) you could conceivably notice, it's something that calls for a Perception check. An invisible creature stepping 5 feet (a) isn't obvious but (b) is something you could conceivably notice, albeit with great difficulty, so it calls for a Perception check with a commensurately high DC. If you make it, great--you see the dust on the ground rustle in a shape reminiscent of footsteps--Step Up. If you don't, you don't have the information required to Step Up.
Invisibility gives Total Concealment.
PRD:
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
PRD:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
If the opponent moved out of the threatened square without being invisible, they would provoke. Being invisible, they don't. Why? You cannot react to the actions of an invisible opponent. Can you parry? No, since you don't know they triggered the condition until after it can be used. [This is why sneak attack from invisible gets the extra dice. If the invisibility brakes during the attack, it would no longer be unseen and qualify for extra damage.]
Concealment isn't always effective. An area of dim lighting or darkness doesn't provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance than other characters with the same light source. Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Perception checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Stealth checks when not moving (even though opponents can't see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual or auditory clues).
Here is how they locate an invisible creature. There is NO indication you get anything other than location. That check gets you only location. Therefore, their movement, of whatever form, is NOT covered by that check and needs to be perceived with a different check.
As has been indicated, you don't know if they did a 5' step, moved 5', or moved more than 5'. You won't know until their movement is resolved. By that time, you can no longer activate Step Up. Some GMs may give you this, but it would not be RAW. [I probably would, but only with a reactive perception check.]
Between these two things, I think this becomes a hard no. Best I see is a DC 30 (10-hear walking, 20-invisible) to perceive they left the square. Knowing how far and if it was a move or a 5' step would be meta-gaming or a GM freebee.
/cevah
PS: blahpers: What the check gives you is explicit [in bold above], and not from the table in the skills section.
I disagree wholeheartedly.
Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Perception checks to notice the location of an invisible character.
I disagree wholeheartedly.
Based on ? Please cite.
/cevah
I did, above. The Perception skill can detect whatever a character can notice provided they make the DC. Nothing you've quoted states that a character cannot notice an invisible character taking a 5 foot step, only that they can notice the creature's location.
I thought you were disagreeing to say that the perception check to locate gave more than location.
It appears we agree that a separate check could detect the movement.
Hard to tell which you were referring to when you don't quote. :-)
/cevah
Sometimes, I just can't be bothered to markup. : D
Only movement at full speed gives a -20 penaltyInstead of thinking up silly examples, just look at the rules.
Movement reduces the DC to find an invisible person by 20 points. The movement is directly related to noticing them. It seems strange to suggest that you would be unaware of the movement, but notice their now stationary position, especially when said movement directly aided you in finding their current position.
Not how I read the text.
If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.
Invisibility clearly states that to get the full bonus, you need to be stationary. "Moving" reduces the bonus by 20.
Magic If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you’re moving.
The stealth skill uses nearly identical language, but the small differences don't change the meaning at all. It differentiates between not-moving and moving, but no other speeds are identified.
Unless I'm mistaken, a 5ft step is still movement, but hey, let's double check.
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
It sure uses the word "move" and various conjugations of that word a lot. I think I'm pretty safe in considering it movement.
I feel pretty safe in my earlier assessment. I could be wrong if there's a clarification that I haven't seen, but the language doesn't seem very ambiguous to me.
In fact, I think one could argue that any action which requires physical movement might reduce the bonus from +40 to +20. A creature with greater invisibility that attacks, for example, I wouldn't consider "stationary" or "immobile," but I think that is more a personal choice as GM and I don't feel the need to die on that hill.
Changing squares is definitely movement though.
A Perception check gives you whatever information the GM says it does. The Perception DC table is not exhaustive, and it's called out as "a number of guidelines" because it's impossible to cover every situation. If it something that (a) isn't obvious but (b) you could conceivably notice, it's something that calls for a Perception check. An invisible creature stepping 5 feet (a) isn't obvious but (b) is something you could conceivably notice, albeit with great difficulty, so it calls for a Perception check with a commensurately high DC. If you make it, great--you see the dust on the ground rustle in a shape reminiscent of footsteps--Step Up. If you don't, you don't have the information required to Step Up.I will give an an example of why the perception check does not help.
If you make a perception check you know what square someone is in because it gives away the square.
If you are attacked by an adjacent invisible opponent you know what square they are in because it gives away the square.
Both things give you the exact same information. Person A is on Square Y.
If the person who you located because he attacked you takes a 5 foot step you have no way to know that he moved away outside of a perception check to know his new location.
Finding someone via a perception check doesn't have any advantage over finding someone because they tried to stab you in the face.So if one situation doesn't allow you to know what someone is doing then neither will the other one.
House rules don't count, and if the GM gifts you something it is a houserule when the book doesn’t say you get it.
Only movement at full speed gives a -20 penaltyInstead of thinking up silly examples, just look at the rules.
Movement reduces the DC to find an invisible person by 20 points. The movement is directly related to noticing them. It seems strange to suggest that you would be unaware of the movement, but notice their now stationary position, especially when said movement directly aided you in finding their current position.
Not how I read the text.
If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.Invisibility clearly states that to get the full bonus, you need to be stationary. "Moving" reduces the bonus by 20.
Magic If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you’re moving.The stealth skill uses nearly identical language, but the small differences don't change the meaning at all. It differentiates between not-moving and moving, but no other speeds are identified.
Unless I'm mistaken, a 5ft step is still movement, but hey, let's double check.
...Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which
The way you wrote made it seem like you were saying the +20 went to 0, not the +40 goes to +20. Getting the +20 by itself is normally enough to hide most of the time.
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Yes.And would you further this to include a character using Opportune Parry and Riposte against an invisible opponent having to first make a reactive perception check to even use the ability?This is getting silly.
Foe takes a 5-foot step. Fighto the Fighter makes a reactive Perception check to notice. Success? Fighto can Step Up.
There are two things that prevent OP&R from working.
1-. OP&R takes the place of an AoO (and it counts towards your AoO limit), you cannot perform AoO's vs creatures in total concealment.
The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity
2-. OP&R requires you to make the check before the attack resolves...
The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made
... but you're not given the pinpoint of the creature until the attack is resolved and actually confirmed as a hit.
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the exact location of the creature that struck him
If you're not struck, you don't even get the pinpoint or general location of the creature.
RAW, you can Step Up in pursuit of an invisible opponent you can't perceive and are entirely unaware of. There's no rule saying you can't.
Common sense, you can't, but that's a house rule. It's a reasonable house rule that you can if you can make a high enough Perception check, but I have no idea what the DC would be, given that this question still hasn't been answered.
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RAW, you can Step Up in pursuit of an invisible opponent you can't perceive and are entirely unaware of. There's no rule saying you can't.
Common sense, you can't, but that's a house rule. It's a reasonable house rule that you can if you can make a high enough Perception check, but I have no idea what the DC would be, given that this question still hasn't been answered.
RAW, there are three things that state you can't: The fact that the feat has prerequisites.
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the... indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other ...quality designated in order to select or use that feat. [...]
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite..
The Step Up feat has three prerequisites
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability.
a) Opponent must be adjacent to you. If you don't know where the opponent is, you can't simply assume he's always adjacent to you to qualify gfor the feat.
b) Opponent must take a 5-foot step movement. If you don't know the type of movement he used (for example, a 5ft move action), you can't simply assume that the 5ft move is always a 5-foot step to qualify for the feat
c) Opponent must move away from you. The moment an opponent moves you lose his track so you don't know if the foe moved away or is strafing you, you can't simply assume that the foe used the 5-foot step to move away to qualify for the feat.
You can't declare you use a feat only on assumption it's prerequisites are met. You can only declare when your character is 100% certain they've been met. Since you don't know the exact actions an invisible creature does, you will never be 100% sure of those actions unless you either houserule, or metagame as a player and not as a character.
I've been trying to get the invis+stealth question answered for about 5 years now IIRC. I don't think they are going to answer it unless it needs to be answered for some future class, and even then they might only half answer it, like they did with manifestations for the psychic classes.
I'm pretty sure 'prerequisites' for feats mean prerequisites for taking feats, not for using them...
a) Opponent must be adjacent to you. If you don't know where the opponent is, you can't simply assume he's always adjacent to you to qualify for the feat.
b) Opponent must take a 5-foot step movement. If you don't know the type of movement he used (for example, a 5ft move action), you can't simply assume that the 5ft move is always a 5-foot step to qualify for the feat
c) Opponent must move away from you. The moment an opponent moves you lose his track so you don't know if the foe moved away or is strafing you, you can't simply assume that the foe used the 5-foot step to move away to qualify for the feat.
The opponent must be adjacent, taking a 5-foot step, and moving away from you.
Not "and you are aware of these things". Of course common sense will tell us that you obviously should be aware of your opponent to use your feat. My common sense also tells me you can't be flanked by an invisible enemy that you're unaware of, but that's not RAW either.But, looking at it another way, Step Up isn't automatic - you'd have to declare you want to step up. And you couldn't (or at least wouldn't) do that if you weren't aware that you your opponent had stepped away. So I guess that's a way to justify ruling this sensibly.
I woke up a mile from my house. You probably think I'm a sleep-walker. The truth is I have the Step Up feat...
I woke up a mile from my house. You probably think I'm a sleep-walker. The truth is I have the Step Up feat...
Yup, the feat doesn't explicitly state that you have to be conscious to use it. Based on the argument that since it doesn't explicitly state you have to perceive your opponent moving to use it, this should also work.
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But, looking at it another way, Step Up isn't automatic - you'd have to declare you want to step up. And you couldn't (or at least wouldn't) do that if you weren't aware that you your opponent had stepped away. So I guess that's a way to justify ruling this sensibly.
This is the main point. The character (not the player) must be aware that as specific action is being made, and when, so he can actually try to counter that action or react in a specific way. Unless the character can somehow get that information (and info granted by perception checks is nowhere close to granting that), foe's actions are directly hidden from the character.
There are two checks that can directly grant information:
A "flat" DC20 check allows a character to notice an invisible foe in a 30ft vicinity. This is the "reactive check" you're granted for free. You know there's something around you, but don't know exactly where
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that "something's there" but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack
An active check may be attempted to pinpoint the foe's current location (square)... until the foe moves.
If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.
Depending on the circumstances, the pinpoint can be a flat check (if the opponent doesn't actively attempt to hide) or an opposed check vs the opponent's stealth roll in case the invisible opponent actively acts stealthily. Depending on circumstances, a pinpoint check vs an invisible, actively stealthing foe may perfectly require a DC100+ check
House rules don't count, and if the GM gifts you something it is a houserule when the book doesn’t say you get it.A Perception check gives you whatever information the GM says it does. The Perception DC table is not exhaustive, and it's called out as "a number of guidelines" because it's impossible to cover every situation. If it something that (a) isn't obvious but (b) you could conceivably notice, it's something that calls for a Perception check. An invisible creature stepping 5 feet (a) isn't obvious but (b) is something you could conceivably notice, albeit with great difficulty, so it calls for a Perception check with a commensurately high DC. If you make it, great--you see the dust on the ground rustle in a shape reminiscent of footsteps--Step Up. If you don't, you don't have the information required to Step Up.I will give an an example of why the perception check does not help.
If you make a perception check you know what square someone is in because it gives away the square.
If you are attacked by an adjacent invisible opponent you know what square they are in because it gives away the square.
Both things give you the exact same information. Person A is on Square Y.
If the person who you located because he attacked you takes a 5 foot step you have no way to know that he moved away outside of a perception check to know his new location.
Finding someone via a perception check doesn't have any advantage over finding someone because they tried to stab you in the face.So if one situation doesn't allow you to know what someone is doing then neither will the other one.
Perception is written as a "house rule", however you play it, because it's literally impossible to cover all of the scenarios in which it comes into play.
RAW, you can Step Up in pursuit of an invisible opponent you can't perceive and are entirely unaware of. There's no rule saying you can't.
Common sense, you can't, but that's a house rule. It's a reasonable house rule that you can if you can make a high enough Perception check, but I have no idea what the DC would be, given that this question still hasn't been answered.
Well, I dunno about Common sense there. Magic already trumps skills too much. If we have a PC who has invested in a great deal of Perception and the Step up Feat, I think it simply makes sense to allow him this.
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Well, I dunno about Common sense there. Magic already trumps skills too much. If we have a PC who has invested in a great deal of Perception and the Step up Feat, I think it simply makes sense to allow him this.
Invisibility doesn't have to involve spells or magic. There are ways for a creature to become invisible through other means, and even creatures that are constantly invisible per-se.
Against magical invisibility, it usually doesn't matter how much perception a creature has; the penalties to pinpointing are usually too high if the invisible creature actively stealths, so chances are 99% of the time the creature attempting the pinpoint will fail miserably. Against other means of invisibility pinpoint chances are better, but still dificult.
Usually, the most common action of getting a pinpoint is when the invisible creature makes an actions that forces her to give away her possition, at least to some of the creatures involved (for example, attacking others)
You can't just "allow" a player to use a feat because of a high stat or skill unless you houserule that. Many feats have requirements (as Matthew Downie stated, probably prerequisites is not the word to use) that must be fulfilled for the feat to "activate"
The Step Up feat requires for an opponent to behave in a very specific way (be adjacent to the feat user, take 5-foot step, move directly away); this behavior is done on the opponent's turn (not the character's) and, since the foe is invisible, his actions are hidden so the character does not know if the requirements are fulfilled or not.
The player may know the creature's actions (because the GM mistakenly plays the invisible monster actions "in the open", for example), but the character does not know that info. If the player then translates the info he got to his character then that player is metagaming.
Against magical invisibility, it usually doesn't matter how much perception a creature has; the penalties to pinpointing are usually too high if the invisible creature actively stealths, so chances are 99% of the time the creature attempting the pinpoint will fail miserably. Against other means of invisibility pinpoint chances are better, but still dificult.
Well, I have had PC's spot invisible characters and in the case of the original thread the PC spotted the Invisible character.
Quite often spellcasters have no ranks in stealth.
Perception is written as a "house rule", however you play it, because it's literally impossible to cover all of the scenarios in which it comes into play.House rules don't count, and if the GM gifts you something it is a houserule when the book doesn’t say you get it.A Perception check gives you whatever information the GM says it does. The Perception DC table is not exhaustive, and it's called out as "a number of guidelines" because it's impossible to cover every situation. If it something that (a) isn't obvious but (b) you could conceivably notice, it's something that calls for a Perception check. An invisible creature stepping 5 feet (a) isn't obvious but (b) is something you could conceivably notice, albeit with great difficulty, so it calls for a Perception check with a commensurately high DC. If you make it, great--you see the dust on the ground rustle in a shape reminiscent of footsteps--Step Up. If you don't, you don't have the information required to Step Up.I will give an an example of why the perception check does not help.
If you make a perception check you know what square someone is in because it gives away the square.
If you are attacked by an adjacent invisible opponent you know what square they are in because it gives away the square.
Both things give you the exact same information. Person A is on Square Y.
If the person who you located because he attacked you takes a 5 foot step you have no way to know that he moved away outside of a perception check to know his new location.
Finding someone via a perception check doesn't have any advantage over finding someone because they tried to stab you in the face.So if one situation doesn't allow you to know what someone is doing then neither will the other one.
A lot of things are not covered for every situation because the book can't be 999999999 pages long. That does not make some GM's rule official for the game. Since we are discussing official game rules only what the book says is official. Otherwise I can just say it(whatever your GM gifts you) doesn't work since I am a GM and therefore counter your GM. Of course that is not really helpful to the community as whole.
Basically "my GM might allow it" does not make it a rule for the game.
Against magical invisibility, it usually doesn't matter how much perception a creature has; the penalties to pinpointing are usually too high if the invisible creature actively stealths, so chances are 99% of the time the creature attempting the pinpoint will fail miserably. Against other means of invisibility pinpoint chances are better, but still dificult.Well, I have had PC's spot invisible characters and in the case of the original thread the PC spotted the Invisible character.
Quite often spellcasters have no ranks in stealth.
Pinpointing an actively stealthing invisible creature is nigh impossible because modifiers alone. Remember that skills don't auto succeed with a 20. If you're using the invisibility spell, static modifiers andd specially the spell bonus to stealth usually skyrocket the pinpoint check to DC100+. For creatures granted invisibility through other means, DC may be a DC50+ or so...
The best moment to catch an invisible foe is when it's busy doing other actions so can't afford a stealth check and thus, the dificulty drops somewhere around a flat DC30+, depending on the particular action.